AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

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Sharklasers
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by Sharklasers »

Localizer wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:25 pm
=altiplano post_id=1145066 time=1614024229 user_id=3052]
[quote=Localizer post_id=<a href="tel:1145061">1145061</a> time=<a href="tel:1614019397">1614019397</a> user_id=2924]
I’m the farthest thing from a snowflake bud, but the contempt people are displaying has become nauseating at this point.

I'm sure you aren't. As I said, lighten up. Can't we come to an understanding?

I'm not offended that you want what's best for you and your colleagues, I get that's what you want... so why are you offended that I would want what's best for me and mine?

Contempt? Not at all, I wish you the best. But it doesn't mean that I have to happily give up my future for you.

Again, I understand your position, where you're coming from. Why can't you understand where I might be coming from?

I don't want a kick in the nuts...
I haven’t said which side of this game I sit on, but I do have skin in the game. I try not to let that be the focal point of my comments, instead try to see things from both perspectives.

I read your comments and process them into the bigger picture. The concerns you have are justified, and more than likely shared by all others involved. For instance, all seniority will be affected, both sides .. how are you personally losing more than anyone else? (Relative to where you currently sit) Layoffs, CR already stated that layoffs will be equal, how is anyone losing anymore? I see more loss than gains for the entire group in the short term, but there is a lot of potential in the future.

It’s tough to hold onto the hope that this will work itself out and we will all “win” in the end, specially when all we seem to do, is keep giving with not much in return. By nature I am an optimist and I hope once this pandemic is over we see the equivalent of the roaring twenties come back and version 2.0 of the Golden era of aviation. If that does happen ... none of this will matter and it’ll be but a memory.

you are willfully ignoring altiplanos point.

I assume You are intelligent and able to understand if you choose to.
If Transat has 700 guys laid off and AC buys them and recalling those 700 guys delays recalling AC pilots how is that not the AC pilots losing more than they would if Transat doesn’t get bought.
We do not work for the same company, we don’t even have the same union. Why would we as Air Canada pilots strive for an “equal” outcome to our own determine as you say?

The level of entitlement in this thread by some Transat guys boggles the mind. Not only are the AC pilots supposed to sacrifice their own jobs and career progression they are expected to be happy about it in the name of solidarity with the Transat pilots.
The very same pilots who were always willing to do the job for at least a 20% discount while at the same time complaining about ACPAs poor bargaining dragging the industry down.
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columbia
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by columbia »

Let’s look at things rationally. This deal won’t happen, AC can’t afford it, unless they have a massive bailout.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by landshark »

Air Canada was sitting just over 8B at the end of December in unrestricted liquidity.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by columbia »

landshark wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:49 pm Air Canada was sitting just over 8B at the end of December in unrestricted liquidity.
And how much current liabilities? Plus take into account TRZ’s liabilities. I’m a TS pilot, looking at things logically. I don’t think now is the time for a merger. Now is the time for a fuc**n industry bailout. Then when things come back to normal in a couple of years we can talk about a merger.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by Localizer »

you are willfully ignoring altiplanos point.
I willfully ignored nothing ..
If Transat has 700 guys laid off and AC buys them and recalling those 700 guys delays recalling AC pilots how is that not the AC pilots losing more than they would if Transat doesn’t get bought.
You speak as if seniority list will be blended as of day one .. it won't. The two companies will continue to operate separate for a period of time, recalls will be on a ratio basis as per CR.
We do not work for the same company, we don’t even have the same union.
If the merger goes through we will work for the same company, as for the union, we will all have a vote on that as I assume there will be a representation drive (not entirely sure about that).
Why would we as Air Canada pilots strive for an “equal” outcome to our own determine as you say?
You can "strive" for whatever you want, but you won't hold the cards in that case, it will be up to an arbitrator and precedence.
The level of entitlement in this thread by some Transat guys boggles the mind.
You speak from the position as though you look down on other pilots in the industry (proof is your 20% discount comment) .. so this comment has a particular irony to it.
Not only are the AC pilots supposed to sacrifice their own jobs and career progression they are expected to be happy about it in the name of solidarity with the Transat pilots.
You speak as if the Transat pilots brought this upon you. We are all merely cogs in a machine that tells us what to do, we make no rules and have really no say at the end of the day in corporate matters, so we bring our frustrations to the internet and throw spears at the only people who will listen .. I have no expectations anymore .. I come here to watch the amygdala hijack that takes place in every other thread.
The very same pilots who were always willing to do the job for at least a 20% discount while at the same time complaining about ACPAs poor bargaining dragging the industry down.
ACPA has a good contract, the only people I see complaining about the ACPA contract, is ACPA pilots, the 20% discounters as you call them are trying to get to ACPA's level, maybe find pride in that?

My point is simple .. you're kicking dirt at the people sitting in the same boat as you. We will all be affected in one way or another, some positive and some negative, it's out of our hands.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by Localizer »

columbia wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:59 pm
landshark wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:49 pm Air Canada was sitting just over 8B at the end of December in unrestricted liquidity.
And how much current liabilities? Plus take into account TRZ’s liabilities. I’m a TS pilot, looking at things logically. I don’t think now is the time for a merger. Now is the time for a fuc**n industry bailout. Then when things come back to normal in a couple of years we can talk about a merger.
This is the best time for a merger .. AC saved $530 million on this deal. Good times are just around the corner and the government sounds close to announcing sectorial aid.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by rudder »

landshark wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:49 pm Air Canada was sitting just over 8B at the end of December in unrestricted liquidity.
Burning $15MM/day in Q1 2021. That rate will continue through April but hopefully start to abate in May with nominal improvement for June-August. Summer 2021 is not looking good for unrestricted international travel and meaningful revenue recovery.

So, absent government support (non-repayable) AC will burn through $1.8B up to April 30. May-August could be up to another $1.2-1.5B assuming that AC can get daily cash burn down to $10MM. Unrestricted liquidity will drop to less than $5B.

My guess is that loans are on the way. Hopefully with subsidized interest rates allowing for replacement of less affordable loan facilities. But that is still debt. Absent the option for forgiveness, it will eventually have to be repaid from future cash flows.

Right now AC is playing a guessing game about future revenue. There is very little that is reliably predictable when Canada remains so far behind the vaccination curve and so restrictive in not only international but domestic travel.

AC will likely avoid CCAA. But it will take years to rehabilitate the balance sheet to where it was prior to COVID. And the fate of the TRZ transaction will be determined by that calculation.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by Sharklasers »

Localizer wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:03 pm
The level of entitlement in this thread by some Transat guys boggles the mind.
You speak from the position as though you look down on other pilots in the industry (proof is your 20% discount comment) .. so this comment has a particular irony to it.
I speak from the position of an employed and working pilot who hopes to stay that way and regain his captaincy before retirement. A Transat merger will not do anything to propel me or my colleagues in that same boat any closer to that goal. In fact it will do quite the opposite, so pardon us if our god given survival instincts offend you in any way.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by Localizer »

Sharklasers wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:19 pm [quote=Localizer post_id=<a href="tel:1145085">1145085</a> time=<a href="tel:1614034992">1614034992</a> user_id=2924]
The level of entitlement in this thread by some Transat guys boggles the mind.
You speak from the position as though you look down on other pilots in the industry (proof is your 20% discount comment) .. so this comment has a particular irony to it.


I speak from the position of an employed and working pilot who hopes to stay that way and regain his captaincy before retirement. A Transat merger will not do anything to propel me or my colleagues in that same boat any closer to that goal. In fact it will do quite the opposite, so pardon us if our god given survival instincts offend you in any way.
Again, there are people at AT in the same boat as you, are they less valuable then yourself? Self preservation is an instinct in all of us .. I’m just trying to open your eyes to “the entitled Transat pilots” that are doing the same as you. More similarities then differences.

BTW I’m not offended in any way ... should I be?
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by LittleNelly »

It really is amazing the Transat people who expect Air Canada people to give up their positions/jobs and are surprised that they are not happy about it.
It is very clear that a combination means less jobs, what is so hard to understand about that. Don’t expect Air Canada employees to be happy to share that pain of lost transat positions.
Usually employee groups have fought tooth and nail against mergers especially when it is declared that it will result in significant job loss. Yet many from Transat don’t care at all as long as they get to become an air canada pilot, is it really that bad to work at Transat?
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by Sharklasers »

Localizer wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:55 pm
Sharklasers wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:19 pm [quote=Localizer post_id=<a href="tel:1145085">1145085</a> time=<a href="tel:1614034992">1614034992</a> user_id=2924]
The level of entitlement in this thread by some Transat guys boggles the mind.
You speak from the position as though you look down on other pilots in the industry (proof is your 20% discount comment) .. so this comment has a particular irony to it.


I speak from the position of an employed and working pilot who hopes to stay that way and regain his captaincy before retirement. A Transat merger will not do anything to propel me or my colleagues in that same boat any closer to that goal. In fact it will do quite the opposite, so pardon us if our god given survival instincts offend you in any way.
Again, there are people at AT in the same boat as you, are they less valuable then yourself? Self preservation is an instinct in all of us .. I’m just trying to open your eyes to “the entitled Transat pilots” that are doing the same as you. More similarities then differences.

BTW I’m not offended in any way ... should I be?
When it is Air Canada pilots *attenpting* to get onto the transat pilot seniority list while simultaneously desperately trying to convince the transat pilots that it is actually a good thing for them to lose their seats and jobs and incomes in the name of solidarity or kumbaya or whatever your arguments will hold water.
Untill then I will remain firmly convinced that Air Canada pilots are entitled to their positions on the Air Canada list.
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Last edited by Sharklasers on Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by Sharklasers »

LittleNelly wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:05 pm It is very clear that a combination means less jobs, what is so hard to understand about that. Don’t expect Air Canada employees to be happy to share that pain of lost transat positions.
I want a serious straight faced answer as to why some Transat pilots expect the Air Canada pilots to happily share the pain of lost Transat pilot jobs.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by Localizer »

Sharklasers wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:10 pm
Localizer wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:55 pm
Sharklasers wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:19 pm [quote=Localizer post_id=<a href="tel:1145085">1145085</a> time=<a href="tel:1614034992">1614034992</a> user_id=2924]



You speak from the position as though you look down on other pilots in the industry (proof is your 20% discount comment) .. so this comment has a particular irony to it.


I speak from the position of an employed and working pilot who hopes to stay that way and regain his captaincy before retirement. A Transat merger will not do anything to propel me or my colleagues in that same boat any closer to that goal. In fact it will do quite the opposite, so pardon us if our god given survival instincts offend you in any way.
Again, there are people at AT in the same boat as you, are they less valuable then yourself? Self preservation is an instinct in all of us .. I’m just trying to open your eyes to “the entitled Transat pilots” that are doing the same as you. More similarities then differences.

BTW I’m not offended in any way ... should I be?
When it is Air Canada pilots scratching and clawing to get onto the transat pilot seniority list while simultaneously desperately trying to convince the transat pilots that it is actually a good thing for them to lose their seats and jobs and incomes in the name of solidarity or kumbaya or whatever your arguments will hold water.
Untill then I will remain firmly convinced that Air Canada pilots are entitled to their positions on the Air Canada list.
Scratching and clawing?? Paranoia?? I know it’s tough and strange times ... but man, utilize the employee assistance program.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by Sharklasers »

Scratching and clawing was inappropriate for that I apologize but the rest of my point and question stands.

Its pretty clear to me that we will never see eye to eye on this.

My concern is with preserving the careers of my colleagues and myself and yours is with you and your colleagues, a merger and one at this time is directly and unavoidably in conflict with that. I do wish all Transat pilots successful and long careers but not at the expense of mine.
With that said I think its fair to say I have nothing more to add except goodluck to us all.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

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Sharklasers wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:52 pm Scratching and clawing was inappropriate for that I apologize but the rest of my point and question stands.

Its pretty clear to me that we will never see eye to eye on this.

My concern is with preserving the careers of my colleagues and myself and yours is with you and your colleagues, a merger and one at this time is directly and unavoidably in conflict with that. I do wish all Transat pilots successful and long careers but not at the expense of mine.
With that said I think its fair to say I have nothing more to add except goodluck to us all.

This I can agree with and support. I totally know where you’re coming from and understand.

I just hope this world gets back on track ASAP! I hope you get your left seat back!
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by boeingboy »

Instead of getting all worked up over each other - we should wait and see if it actually goes through. There's still a lot that can happen, and my gut still thinks there's nothing really left of any value in this for Air Canada after reading all the conditions of sale.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by altiplano »

Localizer wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:30 pm
Sharklasers wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:52 pm Scratching and clawing was inappropriate for that I apologize but the rest of my point and question stands.

Its pretty clear to me that we will never see eye to eye on this.

My concern is with preserving the careers of my colleagues and myself and yours is with you and your colleagues, a merger and one at this time is directly and unavoidably in conflict with that. I do wish all Transat pilots successful and long careers but not at the expense of mine.
With that said I think its fair to say I have nothing more to add except goodluck to us all.

This I can agree with and support. I totally know where you’re coming from and understand.

I just hope this world gets back on track ASAP! I hope you get your left seat back!
How come you agree with him when he says it?
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by 800man »

Oh blah blah blah. What is this, 80 pages of the same 5 AC people over and over bitching about their potential seniority loss.

Synopsis from the start of the thread:

Tiny handful of AC guys: Hey @#$! you guys, you guys won the lottery. We're going to lose all our jobs because of your 13% integration. AC is the best place to work and TS is obviously the worst.

TS: We're happy that the company will still be viable, but honestly the conditions here have been really good. I guess we'll see what the future holds. AC is definitely better for job security for us.

AC: You ingrates.

---PANDEMIC--- Gov't unilaterally stops almost all international and leisure flying. All TS pilots now laid off. Company loses 80% of value. Possibility of bankruptcy and permanent layoffs. Deal regenotiated and completely uncertain.

TS: What's going to happen? Are we going to even have a job ever again? Man, if we get bought by some random QC company with zero aviation experience post-pandemic we might get run into the ground. AC might be our only hope at this point.

Tiny fraction of AC guys: Still don't care! Lose your houses before I drop 3 seniority numbers!

Minus the couple of factual posters, ie Rudder, who are postulating the details, you guys are pathetic broken records.

Luckily the remaining 5000 don't give a rats ass what you think. I sure don't know a single guy or girl at AC that shares your online opinion. Certainly not now with TS suddenly staring down the barrel of Trudeau's bankruptcy cannon.

At the beginning of all this, as an AC guy I wouldn't be over the moon about possibly losing a couple of months worth of seniority. But I probably wouldn't care too much. More important things to fill our days with.
Now, knowing this might be the only thing securing a callback for guys a few years down the road as opposed to not at all, I'd be happy to accept it!

One this is certain, we have no clue, and no influence. We are ONLY in control of our OWN lives. Most Canadian airlines have been taking horrible advantage of us the last 20 years anyways. I might just leave and live in a country where they actually value their airlines.

80 pages of it.... keep it going guys! Might make a difference! LOL!!!
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Last edited by 800man on Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by Localizer »

We agree to disagree man .. I’ve never been unsupportive of how you “feel” (snowflake! Kidding), I’ve been trying to add another perspective and felt you were demonizing another pilot group for decisions they have no control over.

Like others have said, this deal may never materialize and we’ve wasted all this hot air for nothing ... if it does happen, I’ll still sit in a bar with you and drink beer while I listen to you whine ... (did I lighten up yet?)

:lol:
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Re: AC/TRZ Transaction Approved by TC - $5 per Share

Post by altiplano »

Localizer wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:24 pm We agree to disagree man .. I’ve never been unsupportive of how you “feel” (snowflake! Kidding), I’ve been trying to add another perspective and felt you were demonizing another pilot group for decisions they have no control over.

Like others have said, this deal may never materialize and we’ve wasted all this hot air for nothing ... if it does happen, I’ll still sit in a bar with you and drink beer while I listen to you whine ... (did I lighten up yet?)

:lol:
I'm not sure what I said that you characterize as whining, or feeling, or demonizing. I've just been trying to communicate a perspective that I can't believe you guys couldn't accept. I'm not sure why you guys think we should just like the potential implications. I can accept, but I don't have to like.

Anyway, hot air indeed... It is what it is, and deal or no deal, it doesn't make a lick of difference what we all have said.

And either way I'd have a beer with you.
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