TFTMB heavy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:34 pm11. Maintenance in Canada
Within one year following Closing, Air Canada shall negotiate, in good faith, and agree to enter into the agreements contemplated in the letter of intent between Air Canada and Avianor dated September 10, 2019 and the letter of intent between Air Canada and AAR dated February 17, 2020, regarding the construction and operation of facilities in the Province of Quebec for all airframe overhaul maintenance for all Air Canada and Air Canada Party Airbus A330, A320 family and A220 aircraft, providing that airframe overhaul maintenance shall, subject to the terms of the agreements to be entered into and consistent with the provisions of this paragraph 11, commence within four years after Closing. In particular, Air Canada shall provide its available volumes of A330, A320 and A220 airframe overhaul maintenance to support the construction and operation of A330 and A220 airframe overhaul maintenance facilities in Québec by Avianor and AAR; it being understood, however, that the decision of the independent suppliers to construct such facilities will be made based on, among other considerations, commercially reasonable volume projections, which will themselves be heavily dependent on when the Canadian airline industry is no longer substantially affected by the COVID-19 pandemic.
Looks like some things were already in motion with two letters of intent. Anyone have some insight on those two deals?
No info, but I agree, it looks like AC has been voluntarily heading down the path for overhaul maintenance in Quebec. Perhaps it was to help grease acceptance of the merger. Perhaps the overhaul done by the upstarts since Avious have proven their ability to get it done on time, and on cost.
To me, all I see is a very laser focused acquisition by AC. Do they want to play the pandemic into a better deal? Of course. Do they want to leverage the threat to all those jobs? Not just Transats jobs but those future maintenance jobs. Of course.
But I don’t see AC coming all this way and turning down the acquisition of a competitor for almost free.
TFTMB heavy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:34 pm11. Maintenance in Canada
Within one year following Closing, Air Canada shall negotiate, in good faith, and agree to enter into the agreements contemplated in the letter of intent between Air Canada and Avianor dated September 10, 2019 and the letter of intent between Air Canada and AAR dated February 17, 2020, regarding the construction and operation of facilities in the Province of Quebec for all airframe overhaul maintenance for all Air Canada and Air Canada Party Airbus A330, A320 family and A220 aircraft, providing that airframe overhaul maintenance shall, subject to the terms of the agreements to be entered into and consistent with the provisions of this paragraph 11, commence within four years after Closing. In particular, Air Canada shall provide its available volumes of A330, A320 and A220 airframe overhaul maintenance to support the construction and operation of A330 and A220 airframe overhaul maintenance facilities in Québec by Avianor and AAR; it being understood, however, that the decision of the independent suppliers to construct such facilities will be made based on, among other considerations, commercially reasonable volume projections, which will themselves be heavily dependent on when the Canadian airline industry is no longer substantially affected by the COVID-19 pandemic.
Looks like some things were already in motion with two letters of intent. Anyone have some insight on those two deals?
No info, but I agree, it looks like AC has been voluntarily heading down the path for overhaul maintenance in Quebec. Perhaps it was to help grease acceptance of the merger. Perhaps the overhaul done by the upstarts since Avious have proven their ability to get it done on time, and on cost.
It's not "Almost Free" with all of the millions of $ of losses ,liabilities and the uncertain future that both of these companies now face.
To me, all I see is a very laser focused acquisition by AC. Do they want to play the pandemic into a better deal? Of course. Do they want to leverage the threat to all those jobs? Not just Transats jobs but those future maintenance jobs. Of course.
But I don’t see AC coming all this way and turning down the acquisition of a competitor for almost free.
It's not '"almost free" with the millions of $ of losses and liabilities that both companies are facing. Cash burn and an uncertain future make it a lot more complicated than playing a game of Monopoly.
I think what most are forgetting is the foreign threat for Canadian airlines. It's well know by management that foreign airlines pre-pandemic were gunning for AC. Now with these airlines having received funding AC is in a worse position than pre-pandemic (I know TS is also but that's not the point). AC wanted to acquire TS to grow rapidly and improve on the leisure travel side of things where TS has better customer satisfaction. AC also wanted to make sure WS didn't buy TS. All these things have not changed regardless of how you feel about the whole deal. AC does not care about your seniority or your upgrade, they want to make sure they never end up where TS is, it's that simple. AC also doesn't care about my seniority or having lost my captain position.
I'm a TS pilot, have been for 13 years and wore the star with pride. If this deal closes and we get integrated I'll wear the maple leaf with pride. We have an amazing job where we can go bust our ass at work and then go home and not worry about anything work related. If this pandemic and being stuck at home or some other job hasn't made you realize how fortunate we all are then you will never get it or maybe when it's too late.
My point was simply this. The only thing that matters is what AC wants. It’s their plan and no one else’s. We can pretend we understand all the nuances of AC’s move forward strategy even though that isn’t possible. That strategy is closely guarded.
We can come up with all these possible reasons why surely AC no longer wants Transat. But they are just guess work and wishful thinking for the most part.
They haven’t walked when they could have. There is an unspoken message in that choice.
I thought there were other buyers waiting in the wings, excuse pun, to buy Transat...
If their books show profit, pre-pandemic, and they have a good following with travellers, it seems to me it’s a good deal for a interested buyer.
If these points are not true then its a matter of pros and cons of buying a weaker competitor during Aviations worst downfall or waiting it to go its natural course.
An outside bid from outside the industry sounds hopeful though...
Spaceshuttle wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:27 pm
I thought there were other buyers waiting in the wings, excuse pun, to buy Transat...
If their books show profit, pre-pandemic, and they have a good following with travellers, it seems to me it’s a good deal for a interested buyer.
If these points are not true then its a matter of pros and cons of buying a weaker competitor during Aviations worst downfall or waiting it to go its natural course.
An outside bid from outside the industry sounds hopeful though...
Last edited by Just another canuck on Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
Just another canuck wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:47 am
I exaggerated. I wouldn't have 30 years even if I went to 65 and there's no way I'm doing that. I'll be 56 when the wife retires and if she's not working, niether am I. Haha. I'm a baby? Lol. I had a laugh at that.
Guess I was just in the mood to ruffle feathers.
"BuT mUh Seniority" is a common argument both on here and elsewhere and it's exhausting to listen to. I get the feeling there are a significant amount of AC employees who would rather see every Transat employee out of work or starting from scratch than lose a single seniority number. Which to me is beyond just selfish.
I wouldn't actually do what I stated above, unless of course the guy or gal I was working with gave me reason to. Again, guess I just felt like poking the bear. I also get the feeling that if this goes through, I'll be hated by half my colleagues the rest of my career for something I had no control over. Time will tell.
Okay, well that's good then. I just went with what you said.
"Selfish" LOL... why do you think Transat would be gone? Quebec government is promising backing now. Plus there's PKP and Quebecor.
And you prefer Transat, right? That's what you should be cheering for.
If not though, is it somehow AC pilots' duty to save you and your career at their own expense of diminished career prospects, and extended layoffs of their own membership? What about all the other Transat AT employee and Air Canada employee redundancies? No problem as long as you get your seniority number?
Do any of you ever take a step back and look at the behaviour of “professional pilots” when we talk about employers? The tribalism is disgusting, especially because these companies, at the end of the day, really don’t give a shit about any of us. They’re going to do what’s best for them, not us. The only thing we really have is other pilots, and if you read this thread you quickly realize you can’t bank on that.
Our profession sucks because everyone is trained to keep eyes forward and only worry about the guy in front of them and to say @#$! the guy behind me.
Instead of calling yourself an AC pilot, or an AT pilot or WJ pilot .. how about just a pilot? Or do the egos require a corporate label to justify the dick size and class of citizenship?
Can we argue and not agree on things? Sure, but when it comes down to standing in the unemployment line, we should be doing everything we can for one another.
“You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him.”—Malcolm S. Forbes
100% corporatizations do what's best for themselves or sometimes they do what's best for the CEO's ego.
It's all perspective Loc.
I know why you support the potential deal, but I'm not sure why you can't see why other guys might not be enthused it's at their loss.
and your quote? "treats those that can do nothing for him"?
Firstly, I don't see anyone being mistreated, this is discussion... or are you in the "words hurt" " everyone needs to be included" snowflake camp now?
Secondly, even if... this is less than nothing, this is negative effect, negative prospects on earnings, scheduling, advancement, etc. etc. not to mention current colleagues on the street longer. There is only negative for the other side here.
You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who protest that he wants to kick them in the balls—altiplano
Localizer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:17 am
Do any of you ever take a step back and look at the behaviour of “professional pilots” when we talk about employers? The tribalism is disgusting, especially because these companies, at the end of the day, really don’t give a shit about any of us. They’re going to do what’s best for them, not us. The only thing we really have is other pilots, and if you read this thread you quickly realize you can’t bank on that.
Our profession sucks because everyone is trained to keep eyes forward and only worry about the guy in front of them and to say @#$! the guy behind me.
Instead of calling yourself an AC pilot, or an AT pilot or WJ pilot .. how about just a pilot? Or do the egos require a corporate label to justify the dick size and class of citizenship?
Can we argue and not agree on things? Sure, but when it comes down to standing in the unemployment line, we should be doing everything we can for one another.
“You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him.”—Malcolm S. Forbes
There is no comparison between the AC/CDN merger scenario circa 2001 and the AC/TRZ merger scenario circa 2021.
AC was in no win situation vis-a-vis CDN. AC would have suffered financially with continued competition against a wounded CDN, and ended up suffering by virtue of the consolidated balance sheet resulting from the consummated transaction and the ensuing recession.
With respect to TRZ, AC be fine either way. Recall, this initiative was first analyzed in 2019 with the aviation industry and the economy operating at peak capacity. The acquisition of TRZ would achieve two primary benefits. Additional capacity through acquisition that was not otherwise available organically. And rationalized capacity on overlapping routes which would result in improved yields.
Review of the transaction in the COVID/post-COVID era seem to generally support these benefits. However, conditions imposed by both CDN and EU regulators may impact or diminish these benefits. In addition, both corporations are looking at dramatically different balance sheets than originally contemplated, in particular debt. With COVID related reduced revenue and the unknown of Federal aid, the ‘end state’ of these balance sheets remains to be determined.
MR will be judged by the final decision that he takes on this file. It was clearly CR’s baby. But the fortunes of AC are now the sole purview and responsibility of MR. He is accountable to the AC BOD. And the BOD is accountable to the AC shareholders.
I predict that MR will be looking for a home run in order to close on the transaction. What that will look like remains to be determined but AC is squarely back in the drivers seat. Worse case, TRZ gets bailed out by a weak investor or the QC government. It would not be on solid financial footing leading to possibly years of future operating losses. That is why the stated preference of the TRZ BOD is an AC transaction.
rudder wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:06 am
There is no comparison between the AC/CDN merger scenario circa 2001 and the AC/TRZ merger scenario circa 2021.
AC was in no win situation vis-a-vis CDN. AC would have suffered financially with continued competition against a wounded CDN, and ended up suffering by virtue of the consolidated balance sheet resulting from the consummated transaction and the ensuing recession.
With respect to TRZ, AC be fine either way. Recall, this initiative was first analyzed in 2019 with the aviation industry and the economy operating at peak capacity. The acquisition of TRZ would achieve two primary benefits. Additional capacity through acquisition that was not otherwise available organically. And rationalized capacity on overlapping routes which would result in improved yields.
Review of the transaction in the COVID/post-COVID era seem to generally support these benefits. However, conditions imposed by both CDN and EU regulators may impact or diminish these benefits. In addition, both corporations are looking at dramatically different balance sheets than originally contemplated, in particular debt. With COVID related reduced revenue and the unknown of Federal aid, the ‘end state’ of these balance sheets remains to be determined.
MR will be judged by the final decision that he takes on this file. It was clearly CR’s baby. But the fortunes of AC are now the sole purview and responsibility of MR. He is accountable to the AC BOD. And the BOD is accountable to the AC shareholders.
I predict that MR will be looking for a home run in order to close on the transaction. What that will look like remains to be determined but AC is squarely back in the drivers seat. Worse case, TRZ gets bailed out by a weak investor or the QC government. It would not be on solid financial footing leading to possibly years of future operating losses. That is why the stated preference of the TRZ BOD is an AC transaction.
Well said and similar to what I have said about capacity vs foreign airlines.
My guess is that AC is pressuring the feds to "support" the debt or part of the debt TS has taken on since there has been no government money for airlines so far. The feds in return have been asking the airlines for a stake and seats on the boards in exchange for a "bailout". Ac has been very clear about not wanting to give the government a stake or a seat on the board, the feds have backed down on board seats as of late. I have not read anything on the WS side of things and that's even more convoluted with Onex ownership. My best guess is that this is where the stalemate stands.
On the TS side of things they have told employees that they want the company to continue in the hands of someone who will carry the name and direction with as many employees as possible. They want someone who has the financial capacity to support it until it is profitable again and that is why AC is their first choice. Anyone else coming in to grab TS is a foolish if you ask me, TS has had to open it's books and reveal secrets to AC during the due diligence portion. Anyone else taking the keys right now can't take back what AC knows and is a great disadvantage.
If air canada is using Transat to get government aid, why would Transat not just continue independently in all its wonderful glory if said aid materializes? Why is the current board so desperate to sell? Is it that Transat was always a house of cards waiting to crumble.
If Transat is so structurally dysfunctional why would AC run it in its current structure, is it not more likely AC gets the axe out and reorganizes the whole operation. Air Canada Vacations does not operate its own fleet, so what makes people think Transat would. The joys of monopoly is customers can complain as much as they want but it doesn’t matter.
altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:42 am
Kumbaya bitches... LOL...
100% corporatizations do what's best for themselves or sometimes they do what's best for the CEO's ego.
It's all perspective Loc.
I know why you support the potential deal, but I'm not sure why you can't see why other guys might not be enthused it's at their loss.
and your quote? "treats those that can do nothing for him"?
Firstly, I don't see anyone being mistreated, this is discussion... or are you in the "words hurt" " everyone needs to be included" snowflake camp now?
Secondly, even if... this is less than nothing, this is negative effect, negative prospects on earnings, scheduling, advancement, etc. etc. not to mention current colleagues on the street longer. There is only negative for the other side here.
You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who protest that he wants to kick them in the balls—altiplano
You lost me at “Kumbaya Bitches! .... LOL!”, act like a child, I’ll treat you like a child.
LittleNelly wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:10 am
If air canada is using Transat to get government aid, why would Transat not just continue independently in all its wonderful glory if said aid materializes? Why is the current board so desperate to sell? Is it that Transat was always a house of cards waiting to crumble.
If Transat is so structurally dysfunctional why would AC run it in its current structure, is it not more likely AC gets the axe out and reorganizes the whole operation. Air Canada Vacations does not operate its own fleet, so what makes people think Transat would. The joys of monopoly is customers can complain as much as they want but it doesn’t matter.
"MONOPOLY' ? You got to to be referring to the board game.
altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:42 am
Kumbaya bitches... LOL...
100% corporatizations do what's best for themselves or sometimes they do what's best for the CEO's ego.
It's all perspective Loc.
I know why you support the potential deal, but I'm not sure why you can't see why other guys might not be enthused it's at their loss.
and your quote? "treats those that can do nothing for him"?
Firstly, I don't see anyone being mistreated, this is discussion... or are you in the "words hurt" " everyone needs to be included" snowflake camp now?
Secondly, even if... this is less than nothing, this is negative effect, negative prospects on earnings, scheduling, advancement, etc. etc. not to mention current colleagues on the street longer. There is only negative for the other side here.
You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who protest that he wants to kick them in the balls—altiplano
You lost me at “Kumbaya Bitches! .... LOL!”, act like a child, I’ll treat you like a child.
Localizer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:43 am
I’m the farthest thing from a snowflake bud, but the contempt people are displaying has become nauseating at this point.
I'm sure you aren't. As I said, lighten up. Can't we come to an understanding?
I'm not offended that you want what's best for you and your colleagues, I get that's what you want... so why are you offended that I would want what's best for me and mine?
Contempt? Not at all, I wish you the best. But it doesn't mean that I have to happily give up my future for you.
Again, I understand your position, where you're coming from. Why can't you understand where I might be coming from?
=altiplano post_id=1145066 time=1614024229 user_id=3052]
[quote=Localizer post_id=<a href="tel:1145061">1145061</a> time=<a href="tel:1614019397">1614019397</a> user_id=2924]
I’m the farthest thing from a snowflake bud, but the contempt people are displaying has become nauseating at this point.
I'm sure you aren't. As I said, lighten up. Can't we come to an understanding?
I'm not offended that you want what's best for you and your colleagues, I get that's what you want... so why are you offended that I would want what's best for me and mine?
Contempt? Not at all, I wish you the best. But it doesn't mean that I have to happily give up my future for you.
Again, I understand your position, where you're coming from. Why can't you understand where I might be coming from?
I don't want a kick in the nuts...
I haven’t said which side of this game I sit on, but I do have skin in the game. I try not to let that be the focal point of my comments, instead try to see things from both perspectives.
I read your comments and process them into the bigger picture. The concerns you have are justified, and more than likely shared by all others involved. For instance, all seniority will be affected, both sides .. how are you personally losing more than anyone else? (Relative to where you currently sit) Layoffs, CR already stated that layoffs will be equal, how is anyone losing anymore? I see more loss than gains for the entire group in the short term, but there is a lot of potential in the future.
It’s tough to hold onto the hope that this will work itself out and we will all “win” in the end, specially when all we seem to do, is keep giving with not much in return. By nature I am an optimist and I hope once this pandemic is over we see the equivalent of the roaring twenties come back and version 2.0 of the Golden era of aviation. If that does happen ... none of this will matter and it’ll be but a memory.
