Joining downwind at CYCD

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outsideup
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Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by outsideup »

I have always thought that if there was no conflict, then it is acceptable to join straight-in for the downwind at uncontrolled airports or those with an FSS. Last month I was visiting Nanaimo and approaching from the north, FSS said the active runway was 34 and I responded that I would join downwind right for 34 (34 has rt hand circuits). FSS requested I cross at midfield to join downwind for 34 to which I complied. The airport was not at all busy, I think there may have been one a/c on a long final for 34, but whatever, no problem. After dropping off a friend and I was getting ready to depart, I heard another pilot approaching from the north and he was also corrected and was asked to enter after crossing mid-field. He then asked for clarification and FSS told him, "the correct way to join the circuit is by crossing at mid-field then joining downwind." Am I missing something?
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ahramin
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by ahramin »

CAR 602.96 (3)
(3) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft operating at or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall
• (a) observe aerodrome traffic for the purpose of avoiding a collision;
• (b) conform to or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation;
• (c) make all turns to the left when operating within the aerodrome traffic circuit, except where right turns are specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement or where otherwise authorized by the appropriate air traffic control unit;
Key part is (b) conform to or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation. If there are no other aircraft around, there is no pattern to conform to or avoid, so you can get yourself to the runway any way you like, including skipping the circuit and going directly to final from wherever you are.

What you are missing here is the difference between a controlled airport and an uncontrolled one served by an FSS. If it’s a controlled airport there will be a control tower with trained air traffic controllers and you follow their instructions. Nanaimo is an uncontrolled airport but served by a flight service station with several flight service specialists not trained as controllers but who think they know how to control and do so through "requests". Most private pilots I speak to think it’s best to follow all requests but I think it’s a very bad idea to let someone who is not a pilot and not a controller make decisions for you. Following their requests is sometimes good airpersonship, sometimes doesn’t matter, and sometimes dangerous. It’s up to you to determine which request is which.

In the case of a request to join the circuit a certain way with no other aircraft around, I would just tell them how I am joining the circuit. In the case where they tell you what the proper way to join the circuit is, I would respond with a “roger”, and ignore them. Basically I stick to the below procedures, and “roger” everything else they say. If their “requests” are causing a problem between me and another aircraft in the zone, I’ll coordinate directly with that aircraft.
MF Reporting Procedures on Arrival
602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report
• (a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft’s position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command’s arrival procedure intentions;
• (b) when joining the aerodrome traffic circuit, giving the aircraft’s position in the circuit;
• (c) when on the downwind leg, if applicable;
• (d) when on final approach; and
• (e) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.
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altiplano
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by altiplano »

Join the circuit how you like. FSS has no standing to tell you what is correct. But don't report on the radio that you are joining on a wrong side base, a stickler may report it and you could get violated... just call it straight in.
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lhalliday
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by lhalliday »

FSS at Nanaimo is advisory, just like here in Kamloops. Crossing midfield may avoid a conflict or give better spacing, but as PIC at an uncontrolled airport the decision is yours.

A common one here is to fly the "wrong" circuit to avoid turning skydivers in to hamburger. FSS advise of the conflict (and you should be monitoring the radio anyway). It's up to you do choose a course of action.

...laura
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rookiepilot
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by rookiepilot »

Whole idea of an MF has always been a bit bizzare to me.

US doesn't use them. Any other country?
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AirFrame
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by AirFrame »

Nanaimo is an odd one. I've had everything from flights where all I heard was "Roger" back from the FSS, and flights where FSS gave me instructions just like a tower. At one point many years ago I even got a landing clearance from them... But that was back when they got a lot of complaints about acting too much like a "tower" and not enough like an "advisory". I think if they had a taller building they probably would be a tower. Hard to be taken seriously as "Nanaimo Tower" when you're really "Nanaimo two-floor walkup".
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ahramin
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by ahramin »

My personal favorite was when they were desperately trying to get me to orbit or join the circuit for a downwind landing in order to come in behind a Beech 1900 landing in the opposite direction and estimating a minute after me. Same answer every time "Roger, ABC is x miles final for 34". After I landed and called clear, FSS told the 1900 "That plane is under control now, you're clear to land". They were 3 miles final, made my day.
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7ECA
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by 7ECA »

AirFrame wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:39 amI think if they had a taller building they probably would be a tower. Hard to be taken seriously as "Nanaimo Tower" when you're really "Nanaimo two-floor walkup".
No worse than the days of hearing the CFI of Principal Air acting as judge, jury, and executioner on a handheld transceiver at Chilliwack.
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AirFrame
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by AirFrame »

7ECA wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:10 pmNo worse than the days of hearing the CFI of Principal Air acting as judge, jury, and executioner on a handheld transceiver at Chilliwack.
Oh, the "good old days"? :roll: Yes, that was entertaining. Heard more than one person tell her to get the f*ck off the frequency.
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lhalliday
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by lhalliday »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:01 pm Whole idea of an MF has always been a bit bizzare to me.

US doesn't use them. Any other country?
The U.S. does, sorta. Many "second-tier" airports in Alaska (Juneau, Ketchikan, etc.) operate almost exactly like a Canadian MF airport.

...laura
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A346Dude
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by A346Dude »

https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviati ... mes_EN.pdf

The diagram is fairly straightforward to me. At any airport you can join via overhead into the mid-downwind, or the straight-in downwind. If it is an MF, whether or not there is an FSS, you can also join via the 45 degree into downwind, or base, or straight-in final, but you do have to join on the proper side of the circuit. Or just say you are maneuvering to join a straight in final, if you want to join from the “wrong” side.
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Cessna 180
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by Cessna 180 »

feel free to join however you want at an MF or any other uncontrolled field. Decision is yours if its safe or not. That being said, it's advisable to join a standard traffic pattern at an uncontrolled field (and you could be violated for causing an unsafe situation especially if there's other traffic).

To another posters point, a number of US airports in Alaska have flight service specialists that provide traffic advisory service, much akin to an MF that has an FSS in Canada. They're also very popular in other countries like Greenland and the UK. They usually call it an "AFIS."
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ahramin
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by ahramin »

And it gets more interesting, AIC 41/19:
The specialists will now determine the runway to be used in the initial advisory
http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and ... 41.pdf#top
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altiplano
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Re: Joining downwind at CYCD

Post by altiplano »

NAV Canada can change their phraseology, but it doesn't change CARs.

Besides, FSS don't know what the operational needs of a flight are, what the preferences are ie. straight in on an instrument approach with a light tailwind vs. circling, or a convenient exit vs. long taxi or need to backtrack... Heck, FSS isn't even on the actual airport grounds in many places... and they are going to determine my runway for me? Flying into Dawson Creek, the FSS aren't even in the same province!

How many phraseology change F-ups have we seen at Nav Canada the last number of years? ie. descend via?
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