Working on a C registered aircraft in the states

[username here]

Hi all,

I am looking for some information on whether we can go down to the states to fix one of our own aircraft. I have heard that we are not really supposed to go down there to fix our aircraft as you would be taking a job away from an American and this has something to do with the bi-lateral agreement.

We will try to make some calls to see if we can find someone locally that can help. This is usually a dead end as they will most likely not have a MIP (TCCA Supplement), on type training etc. Unless you are lucky to break down in a major hub where there is a Duncan or other large facility. I know that they will send a team or mobile service unit, but usually in my experience it is much cheaper to go myself.

Thoughts?

[Choppermech1986]

Of course you can! If a truck breaks down, you can drive down and fix it and bring it back, why wouldn't the same apply to an airplane?

[helicopterray]

I've crossed the border to work on US registered aircraft, and with Canadian registered aircraft.

You're not taking work away from an American, you're working on your own aircraft, not somebody elses.

[edmanster]

easily said ...
I been involved in certifying Canadian designed & built components in the states ..
You require letters detailing exactly what is intended; Custom documents detailing every item & tool being sent down.
.. sometime a bond may be required to ensure the parts return.
At the border - the simplest solution is to state you are only going down as an observer !
Send the tools down first via freight - do not accompany the tools (ie: in trunk of car) when u cross the border.
- the less u have the better.
Once I made the mistake stating I had a flashlite & a mirror in my briefcase .. Wow !!! 1 hour of interrogation !
.. In Summary / do not have any tools or parts with you ; have these items shipped ahead of time ..
state that you are only going down as an observer (or aircraft release) as well as the customary letter from the aircraft owner / AMO that you are employed by them - ensuring you are not going down in search of work. .. And be prepared to state when you are returning home & how.

[Grumbler]

What kind of an operation are we talking about here. We (a large regional airline) send guys down south on rescue trips on a regular basis. We supply them with a generic letter containing the appropriate language to present to US customs (partial excerpt) -

"According to 9FAM 41.31 N7.2 (copy attached), employees of foreign airlines coming to the United States to pick up an aircraft may be documented as “B-1” visitors in that they are not transiting the United States and are not admissible as crewmen".

Been doing this for many years so I'm guessing you're not talking about an airline

[username here]

I work on the corporate/management side of things and I have been down to the states multiple times to fix our aircraft. I never lie when going through the border as the last thing I want to do is to black list myself by not telling the truth about my intentions while down there. I have explained to the customs officers that there usually isn't anyone certified down wherever I'm going that can release the work on our aircraft. That can be a lack of a TCCA supplement or training courses.

It's interesting that you guys on the airline side of things bring a letter with you. Have you had issues with or without that? Do you try to use other airlines down there for maintenance support and do they have a MIP (TCCA supplement)?

We have heard of people getting turned away at the border, I have been lucky so far. This is the reason for the post as I want to see what everyone else does and encounters.

Also, I have gone through customs with my Pelican case full of tools before without issues.

[Grumbler]

It's interesting that you guys on the airline side of things bring a letter with you. Have you had issues with or without that? Do you try to use other airlines down there for maintenance support and do they have a MIP (TCCA supplement)?

Having the documentation definitely helps going through customs. It's doable without it but It eliminates a lot of questioning and the customs agents. This is the relevant US law that covers this that we title our letters with -


"Entry to the United States to perform Emergency Mechanical Services B-1 Non-Immigrant Status"

Yes It's preferred to have other local airlines or maintenance support companies do the repairs but then we are at their mercy and timetable which normally doesn't carry the same "urgency" that we need to get back into service. At times we do the same for American carriers, but there are TC / FAA approved agreements between the parties involved, which usually include same basic training on each others procedures for releasing the aircraft back to service, eg log book entries and documenting the work performed. We sometimes will provide parts for each other but rotables must be removed when the aircraft returns to base and sent back

[username here]

Thanks, that's good information. I will have to look that up and consider using it here.

[PitchLink]

Hi all,

I am looking for some information on whether we can go down to the states to fix one of our own aircraft. I have heard that we are not really supposed to go down there to fix our aircraft as you would be taking a job away from an American and this has something to do with the bi-lateral agreement.

We will try to make some calls to see if we can find someone locally that can help. This is usually a dead end as they will most likely not have a MIP (TCCA Supplement), on type training etc. Unless you are lucky to break down in a major hub where there is a Duncan or other large facility. I know that they will send a team or mobile service unit, but usually in my experience it is much cheaper to go myself.

Thoughts?

100% Illegal, I’ve been doing this upward of 20 years and have never been sent without a letter of invite from the customer at the very minimum. An L1B visa is what’s required if you’re going down to work on an aircraft in the USA. The thing is there are part 145 repair stations everywhere and you are essentially taking work from local workers “part 145 repair stations” in the eyes of the USA.

I even know there are airfields down there that won’t allow air maintenance on site if there’s a repair station on site capable of the work, and that’s between other A&P’s locally.

[PitchLink]

Hi all,

I am looking for some information on whether we can go down to the states to fix one of our own aircraft. I have heard that we are not really supposed to go down there to fix our aircraft as you would be taking a job away from an American and this has something to do with the bi-lateral agreement.

We will try to make some calls to see if we can find someone locally that can help. This is usually a dead end as they will most likely not have a MIP (TCCA Supplement), on type training etc. Unless you are lucky to break down in a major hub where there is a Duncan or other large facility. I know that they will send a team or mobile service unit, but usually in my experience it is much cheaper to go myself.

Thoughts?

Also the MIP is an arrangement between the amo maintaining the aircraft And the part 145 repair station in question. I also believe you need a USA counterpart to your company for this and a work history of one calendar year minimum. The MAG is very specific as to what has to be in your manual and I seem to remember the MIP is as well.

A good company to call with regards to this is HeliQwest in St Albert. They do it lots and I have AME friends that worked there both with L1B’s. Ask for their PRM he will know better than me as he deals with it everyday...

[PitchLink]

I've crossed the border to work on US registered aircraft, and with Canadian registered aircraft.

You're not taking work away from an American, you're working on your own aircraft, not somebody elses.

I’ve worked in the USA for years on C and N registered helicopters as well and you need an L1B to work in the states regardless of aircraft ownership as far as I know.
If it’s a quick bounce job they used to accept a letter of offer / invite from the customer hiring the C registered aircraft in the area to get in, but not on a regular basis, and it’s usually a short duration and a one off. All sorts of information was required to prove why nobody could work on the aircraft at the time I went.

I have friends that told white lies at the border that have been banned at the time and are still hassled >10 years later every time they cross the border.

How did you get in to work on these aircraft? I’m curious as this is an issue with many companies it seems.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I work on the corporate/management side of things and I have been down to the states multiple times to fix our aircraft. I never lie when going through the border as the last thing I want to do is to black list myself by not telling the truth about my intentions while down there. I have explained to the customs officers that there usually isn't anyone certified down wherever I'm going that can release the work on our aircraft. That can be a lack of a TCCA supplement or training courses.

It's interesting that you guys on the airline side of things bring a letter with you. Have you had issues with or without that? Do you try to use other airlines down there for maintenance support and do they have a MIP (TCCA supplement)?

We have heard of people getting turned away at the border, I have been lucky so far. This is the reason for the post as I want to see what everyone else does and encounters.

Also, I have gone through customs with my Pelican case full of tools before without issues.

It is a black and white issue, it is illegal. If you went through homeland security and told them you would be working on an aircraft in the USA without a cross border company and sponsorship (intra company transfer) as someone said on here most commonly used is an L-1B that officer would turn you around. Did you tell them you would be actually working on the aircraft? If you tell them you're working on an aircraft from canada operating in the states the first question they will ask is "is there no one here that can do the job?' the answer would be yes, (I know this as I have been working in the usa for decades on aircraft). I've had to apply for visas several times in my career and even then i still get the hassle when im travelling with tools. It's a very touchy subject going to work in the usa visa or not the majority of the usa think youre taking work which is true when youre a non immigrant worker. Unless you're working on some variant that is not approved in the states which are few and far between and none would be business aircraft so knowingly or not what you told them was untrue. You mentioned the MIP, and bilateral arrangements between canada and the USA, its a very straightforward issue and there is a ton of support in any area in the usa for maintenance on anything C registered. This is a year old post now did you get things figured out, or did covid19 stop cross border activities? The easiest way to bypass internal hassle for this is to pass this through an immigration lawyers office its more or less boilerplate, more expensive but way faster and easier. Hope this helps and you didn't get caught and locked up lol

[PitchLink]

I work on the corporate/management side of things and I have been down to the states multiple times to fix our aircraft. I never lie when going through the border as the last thing I want to do is to black list myself by not telling the truth about my intentions while down there. I have explained to the customs officers that there usually isn't anyone certified down wherever I'm going that can release the work on our aircraft. That can be a lack of a TCCA supplement or training courses.

It's interesting that you guys on the airline side of things bring a letter with you. Have you had issues with or without that? Do you try to use other airlines down there for maintenance support and do they have a MIP (TCCA supplement)?

We have heard of people getting turned away at the border, I have been lucky so far. This is the reason for the post as I want to see what everyone else does and encounters.

Also, I have gone through customs with my Pelican case full of tools before without issues.

It is a black and white issue, it is illegal. If you went through homeland security and told them you would be working on an aircraft in the USA without a cross border company and sponsorship (intra company transfer) as someone said on here most commonly used is an L-1B that officer would turn you around. Did you tell them you would be actually working on the aircraft? If you tell them you're working on an aircraft from canada operating in the states the first question they will ask is "is there no one here that can do the job?' the answer would be yes, (I know this as I have been working in the usa for decades on aircraft). I've had to apply for visas several times in my career and even then i still get the hassle when im travelling with tools. It's a very touchy subject going to work in the usa visa or not the majority of the usa think youre taking work which is true when youre a non immigrant worker. Unless you're working on some variant that is not approved in the states which are few and far between and none would be business aircraft so knowingly or not what you told them was untrue. You mentioned the MIP, and bilateral arrangements between canada and the USA, its a very straightforward issue and there is a ton of support in any area in the usa for maintenance on anything C registered. This is a year old post now did you get things figured out, or did covid19 stop cross border activities? The easiest way to bypass internal hassle for this is to pass this through an immigration lawyers office its more or less boilerplate, more expensive but way faster and easier. Hope this helps and you didn't get caught and locked up lol

No kidding, I kinda went off back then because this is such a STUPID thing for an employer to ask of an employee and it’s something that’s been asked of ME PERSONALLY, to which I stared at them until they made things right. You can get even smaller L1s these days as low as three months. I’d love to know who this “management company” is and why they’re using using an online forum in anonymity too boot rather than asking the proper channels how to send an AME to foreign soil to work LEGALLY. It’s not very f’n hard, but it does cost money, that is the caveat to this I’m sure. My guess is this person isn’t the technician that was going down and they’re doing damage control after someone got turned back or worse (jailed perhaps? I know of a job I was on that happened to a support crew following company pressure to lie at the border), why would a technician be asking this as “we” for a management company wtf? If they were getting away with it and thought they were doing the right thing than why ask retroactively all of a sudden? This isn’t a new issue and they knew what they were doing surely. Their claim that they were honest at the border doesn’t seem very convincing as I too have been in and out for years doing it legally. Even with a work visa they’re still quite interested in a Canadian coming and going to work in the USA... whatever to anyone reading this years from now if an employer tells you to go work on anything across the border there are legal channels to follow, don’t lie, trust your gut, if you think things are too good to be true or somethings wrong you’re likely right!

[PitchLink]

What kind of an operation are we talking about here. We (a large regional airline) send guys down south on rescue trips on a regular basis. We supply them with a generic letter containing the appropriate language to present to US customs (partial excerpt) -

"According to 9FAM 41.31 N7.2 (copy attached), employees of foreign airlines coming to the United States to pick up an aircraft may be documented as “B-1” visitors in that they are not transiting the United States and are not admissible as crewmen".

Been doing this for many years so I'm guessing you're not talking about an airline

Does 9FAM 41.31 N7.2 even exist anymore? I can’t find it, but that’s for a recovery not routine maintenance isn’t it?

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I work on the corporate/management side of things and I have been down to the states multiple times to fix our aircraft. I never lie when going through the border as the last thing I want to do is to black list myself by not telling the truth about my intentions while down there. I have explained to the customs officers that there usually isn't anyone certified down wherever I'm going that can release the work on our aircraft. That can be a lack of a TCCA supplement or training courses.

It's interesting that you guys on the airline side of things bring a letter with you. Have you had issues with or without that? Do you try to use other airlines down there for maintenance support and do they have a MIP (TCCA supplement)?

We have heard of people getting turned away at the border, I have been lucky so far. This is the reason for the post as I want to see what everyone else does and encounters.

Also, I have gone through customs with my Pelican case full of tools before without issues.

It is a black and white issue, it is illegal. If you went through homeland security and told them you would be working on an aircraft in the USA without a cross border company and sponsorship (intra company transfer) as someone said on here most commonly used is an L-1B that officer would turn you around. Did you tell them you would be actually working on the aircraft? If you tell them you're working on an aircraft from canada operating in the states the first question they will ask is "is there no one here that can do the job?' the answer would be yes, (I know this as I have been working in the usa for decades on aircraft). I've had to apply for visas several times in my career and even then i still get the hassle when im travelling with tools. It's a very touchy subject going to work in the usa visa or not the majority of the usa think youre taking work which is true when youre a non immigrant worker. Unless you're working on some variant that is not approved in the states which are few and far between and none would be business aircraft so knowingly or not what you told them was untrue. You mentioned the MIP, and bilateral arrangements between canada and the USA, its a very straightforward issue and there is a ton of support in any area in the usa for maintenance on anything C registered. This is a year old post now did you get things figured out, or did covid19 stop cross border activities? The easiest way to bypass internal hassle for this is to pass this through an immigration lawyers office its more or less boilerplate, more expensive but way faster and easier. Hope this helps and you didn't get caught and locked up lol

No kidding, I kinda went off back then because this is such a STUPID thing for an employer to ask of an employee and it’s something that’s been asked of ME PERSONALLY, to which I stared at them until they made things right. You can get even smaller L1s these days as low as three months. I’d love to know who this “management company” is and why they’re using using an online forum in anonymity too boot rather than asking the proper channels how to send an AME to foreign soil to work LEGALLY. It’s not very f’n hard, but it does cost money, that is the caveat to this I’m sure. My guess is this person isn’t the technician that was going down and they’re doing damage control after someone got turned back or worse (jailed perhaps? I know of a job I was on that happened to a support crew following company pressure to lie at the border), why would a technician be asking this as “we” for a management company wtf? If they were getting away with it and thought they were doing the right thing than why ask retroactively all of a sudden? This isn’t a new issue and they knew what they were doing surely. Their claim that they were honest at the border doesn’t seem very convincing as I too have been in and out for years doing it legally. Even with a work visa they’re still quite interested in a Canadian coming and going to work in the USA... whatever to anyone reading this years from now if an employer tells you to go work on anything across the border there are legal channels to follow, don’t lie, trust your gut, if you think things are too good to be true or somethings wrong you’re likely right!

I don’t know, something was up for sure everyone knows you need a visa to work in the states.... any company knows that surely, well.... most LOL. There is one or two out there that think they can do what they want. Nothing shocks me anymore, I’m numb to it, all the “we” and “all” thing is VERY familiar, I’ll leave it at that.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

What kind of an operation are we talking about here. We (a large regional airline) send guys down south on rescue trips on a regular basis. We supply them with a generic letter containing the appropriate language to present to US customs (partial excerpt) -

"According to 9FAM 41.31 N7.2 (copy attached), employees of foreign airlines coming to the United States to pick up an aircraft may be documented as “B-1” visitors in that they are not transiting the United States and are not admissible as crewmen".

Been doing this for many years so I'm guessing you're not talking about an airline

Does 9FAM 41.31 N7.2 even exist anymore? I can’t find it, but that’s for a recovery not routine maintenance isn’t it?

That’s a good question it’s no longer listed publicly

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Of course you can! If a truck breaks down, you can drive down and fix it and bring it back, why wouldn't the same apply to an airplane?

You can, but not legally without going through the proper channels. To work on an aircraft in the USA you need a work visa.

[PitchLink]

Of course you can! If a truck breaks down, you can drive down and fix it and bring it back, why wouldn't the same apply to an airplane?

You can, but not legally without going through the proper channels. To work on an aircraft in the USA you need a work visa.

+1.

[all_ramped_up]

The one time I was working on C reg company aircraft in the US, we obtained B1 Visas iirc.

They sent us with a letter from the company saying what we were doing and that we weren't working on US aircraft, being paid in Canadian dollars etc.

Was stamped at the border and carried on my way.

[PitchLink]

The one time I was working on C reg company aircraft in the US, we obtained B1 Visas iirc.

They sent us with a letter from the company saying what we were doing and that we weren't working on US aircraft, being paid in Canadian dollars etc.

Was stamped at the border and carried on my way.

I’ve been down for work a very very long time ago on a B-1 visa to work on an aircraft. Had lots of documentation letter of invite from the customer, brochures from our company who both were US based that we were flying for. Had to provide proof that we tried finding local technicians and that they weren’t available etc etc etc. Got thru did the two days or so of maintenance then got the proper visa after the job was extended and inspections had to happen. I’m assuming you were just there for a couple days as well?