Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

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C-GGGQ
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by C-GGGQ »

7ECA wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:52 pm
North Shore wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:22 am Morning Checklist #1, Rev 1

Reason for amendment: Insert 'Butter: APPLY'

Coffee start Button: DEPRESS
Toaster ENGAGE
Coffee: POUR
Cream: AS DESIRED
Toast: REMOVE
Butter: APPLY
Jam: APPLY
You'll need an additional revision, you've forgotten the 3-Ss. Important part of any morning routine.

Oh dear, and you've forgotten anything about getting dressed and making sure your epaulettes are shiny, and you've neglected the wearing of an appropriately large watch... :lol:
That's only morning checklist #1
Please refer to morning chelist #2-6 for those steps
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7ECA
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by 7ECA »

C-GGGQ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:31 pm That's only morning checklist #1
Please refer to morning checklist #2-6 for those steps
Darn, I guess I forgot to add to my silent checks a check to check if I had checked if there were any additional checklists for the morning...

Might need to add those little coloured sticky tabs to the checklist. :)
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

Another example of how a quick final check would have prevented the circumstances leading up to a fatal accident. A bit more difficult to do on floats but still can be done fairly easily. Pilot forgot the gas cap.

https://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/ ... 8p0108.pdf

"Following this accident, Fort Langley Air Ltd. made several changes to its training program. These changes included the following: • increased awareness and training on fuelling procedures and the importance of confirming that fuel caps are replaced after fuelling;"

Kinda like I said.....throughout the thread.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
PanEuropean
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by PanEuropean »

laminar wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:01 pmMy personal rule is a tow bar doesn't leave my hands. I pull it from a rack, move the plane, and take it back to the rack before my next task.
My personal rule is that I always put some other operator's name on my towbar. :mrgreen:
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PA32pilot
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by PA32pilot »

Did that oil fill cap snap down? Trust your gut feeling and taxi back. Better to suffer some embarrassment than suffer through a whole flight,or worse.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by iflyforpie »

You don’t need a fancy checklist. It’s called a walkaround.

Look at every surface of the aircraft and the area around the aircraft for abnormalities. If the systems that are in place have been implemented properly (flags, high vis markings, ground icing training, norms, etc) you aren’t going to miss anything and you don’t need to write a new checklist for every different plane or situation.

Most others are satisfied by actually following the manufacturer’s checklists (which already include all of the killer items) and improvements over the years which added layers of technology rather than more checklists (takeoff config warning, EGPWS, etc).
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

iflyforpie wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:14 am You don’t need a fancy checklist. It’s called a walkaround.

Look at every surface of the aircraft and the area around the aircraft for abnormalities. If the systems that are in place have been implemented properly (flags, high vis markings, ground icing training, norms, etc) you aren’t going to miss anything and you don’t need to write a new checklist for every different plane or situation.

Most others are satisfied by actually following the manufacturer’s checklists (which already include all of the killer items) and improvements over the years which added layers of technology rather than more checklists (takeoff config warning, EGPWS, etc).
You don't need any checklist. I doubt that Fort Langley Air has any new checklist. They have a procedure to check fuel caps after fueling. After all, fuelling likely happens thousands of times per year AFTER the walkaround is complete, which makes a thorough walkaround kind of useless for ensuring the caps are back on in those cases. Just like several other items which I suggest checking. Takes less time than I spent on this post. This pilot would be alive if he had done what I suggest, and he may well have done the world's most thorough walkaround.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jakeandelwood
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by jakeandelwood »

My final check before getting in is tow bar, fuel caps, baggage door, oil cap and dipstick, takes 15 seconds. Other than the oil cap and dipstick which I just feel is important to double check any of the other things could become a problem again between your pre flight check and take off if you fuel up before take off. Yes and I check my gear at least 2 more times after the pre landing checklist.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/cowl_plu ... mpaign=tip

It turns out that a lot of pilots do my recommended final check procedure in the US as I just discovered. They call it a 360 check. There is a survey available at the posted link(along with many general comments and a brief article).

The question is...."Do you step back and do a final 360-degree walk around before climbing into the airplane?" Out of nearly 13,000 responses, almost 10,000 said 'Yes, always'. I guess they see the common sense in it. Who wouldn't.
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7ECA
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by 7ECA »

Sure, it could be possible that between the time you did your DI/walkaround and when you yawned, readjusted your nuts, and loaded your oversized flight bag into the aeroplane that a mud dauber could have blocked the pitot tube. Or, an errant baggage cart could position itself in front of an engine. Or...

Or, your poor church mouse wife could have run off with another church mouse taking all the cheese, on the same day that an incredibly large tax bill arrived. I mean, shit happens; but let's be realistic.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

7ECA wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:02 pm Sure, it could be possible that between the time you did your DI/walkaround and when you yawned, readjusted your nuts, and loaded your oversized flight bag into the aeroplane that a mud dauber could have blocked the pitot tube. Or, an errant baggage cart could position itself in front of an engine. Or...

Or, your poor church mouse wife could have run off with another church mouse taking all the cheese, on the same day that an incredibly large tax bill arrived. I mean, shit happens; but let's be realistic.
Thanks for your advice. Here is realistic for you....

viewtopic.php?p=1110501#p1110501

Beware who you take your advice from.
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7ECA
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by 7ECA »

Who knows, maybe the missing fuel cap would have been noticed - or maybe it wouldn't have been.

Nevertheless, if one does not panic and tighten a turn at low level; leading to a stall/spin... Or, is there a checklist item to avoid that scenario?
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

7ECA wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:24 pm Who knows, maybe the missing fuel cap would have been noticed - or maybe it wouldn't have been.

Nevertheless, if one does not panic and tighten a turn at low level; leading to a stall/spin... Or, is there a checklist item to avoid that scenario?
Only completely stupid people would still think that this last minute look-around is a checklist after I have repeatedly stated that it is simply a last minute look-around(as well there is the occasional bitter poster like 7ECA who has been proven wrong in previous discussion with me and therefore can only achieve a juvenile level of posting in attempt to somehow get back at me on several threads).

Intelligent and mature people can plainly see that it is desirable to avoid getting airborne with a fuel cap missing(and possibly avoiding the inconvenience of losing said fuel cap), even if they have a checklist to avoid low level turns. Then there are all the other crash examples I have posted in this thread that could have been avoided because pilots didn’t deal with it properly.

Beware of the maturity level of who you take your advice from newbies, you will encounter people like this as you gain experience.
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goldeneagle
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by goldeneagle »

pelmet wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:06 am Only completely stupid people would still think that this last minute look-around is a checklist after I have repeatedly stated that it is simply a last minute look-around
And only completely negligent people have to go double check, and triple check things that were on the first check list (walk around).

If you didn't catch it the first time, then maybe you need to haul out the walk around checklist and start over.
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7ECA
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by 7ECA »

goldeneagle wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:13 am If you didn't catch it the first time, then maybe you need to haul out the walk around checklist and start over.
True, have you seen the level of detail on the pre-flight inspection checklist for a simple aeroplane like a 152/172? It's insane, but thorough - maybe pelmet should be advocating the use of manufacturer approved checklists, rather than home-brewed non-approved checks?

Also, when was I "proven wrong"? Mind you, it's bad enough that I've continued engaging in these circular arguments with a lunatic...
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

goldeneagle wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:13 am And only completely negligent people have to go double check, and triple check things that were on the first check list (walk around).

If you didn't catch it the first time, then maybe you need to haul out the walk around checklist and start over.
Then I suggest pilots of light aircraft consider themselves completely negligent and do the so-called '360 check' of items such as towbars, chocks, baggage doors, fuel caps, oil cap, intake plugs, any damage cause by a vehicle or another aircraft just prior to getting into your aircraft to start up. Ask yourself if this has ever happened to you(or someone you know) where you missed one of these items(any of which could have happened in the time after the walkaround).

Then you won't end up being one of those non-negligent pilots who got caught forgetting these items.

Don't give up your professionalism just because some unprofessionals may berate you for it.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by jakeandelwood »

goldeneagle wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:13 am
pelmet wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:06 am Only completely stupid people would still think that this last minute look-around is a checklist after I have repeatedly stated that it is simply a last minute look-around
And only completely negligent people have to go double check, and triple check things that were on the first check list (walk around).

If you didn't catch it the first time, then maybe you need to haul out the walk around checklist and start over.
How's double, triple checking something negligent? I check to see if the front door is locked at least 6 or 7 times before I go to bed, crazy maybe but hardly negligent.
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goldeneagle
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by goldeneagle »

jakeandelwood wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:00 pm How's double, triple checking something negligent? I check to see if the front door is locked at least 6 or 7 times before I go to bed, crazy maybe but hardly negligent.
If you do the walkaround, then the towbar is still attached afterwards, I would call that negligent.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

goldeneagle wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:25 pm
jakeandelwood wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:00 pm How's double, triple checking something negligent?
If you do the walkaround, then the towbar is still attached afterwards, I would call that negligent.
One would think that experienced pilots would realize that walkarounds frequently get done before an aircraft is towed, the aircraft is fueled, baggage doors are closed for the last time, a pilot leaves the aircraft alone for a multitude of reasons(washroom, help pax, get something, etc, etc) during which a vehicle or other aircraft can strike a wingtip, rudder, etc. If you do nor realize that after however many long years you have been in aviation, you are negligent.

Do the final check....I have several examples on this thread of pilots(and their pax) who would be alive if they listened to my advice. And my advice in general is for negligent pilots as well. Something beneficial for us as we never know when we might be a passenger on their flight.

Some towbar incidents below, even on a large jet....

https://generalaviationnews.com/2019/03 ... -tow-bars/
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by jakeandelwood »

goldeneagle wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:25 pm
jakeandelwood wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:00 pm How's double, triple checking something negligent? I check to see if the front door is locked at least 6 or 7 times before I go to bed, crazy maybe but hardly negligent.
If you do the walkaround, then the towbar is still attached afterwards, I would call that negligent.
No, negligent would be never even checking in the 1st place. You don't seem to know what the definition of negligent is. The definition of thorough on the other hand would be double checking to be sure you didn't forget.
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