ATC Layoffs?

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kevenv
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by kevenv »

Braun wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:14 pm
A346Dude wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:55 am
Braun wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:45 am Not sure how last one out first one back is unfortunate. It's just logical. What's unfortunate is that there are layoffs in the first place and that our union never gave us a chance to vote on proposed salary freezes/cuts to save these jobs. Shame on CATCA.

I think he meant unfortunate for anyone who was “first out”.

Since we don’t know what (if anything) the company proposed to CATCA, I find it hard to call the approach shameful.
I happen to know that they did propose a deal of this sort. Also I've heard it from reliable sources within the union and from the other side.
I suppose we could have voted to give the company a further break so that they could give the managers more than the $7 million in bonuses that they did on the day that they gave the layoff notices.
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Braun
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by Braun »

kevenv wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:00 pm
Braun wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:14 pm
A346Dude wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:55 am


I think he meant unfortunate for anyone who was “first out”.

Since we don’t know what (if anything) the company proposed to CATCA, I find it hard to call the approach shameful.
I happen to know that they did propose a deal of this sort. Also I've heard it from reliable sources within the union and from the other side.
I suppose we could have voted to give the company a further break so that they could give the managers more than the $7 million in bonuses that they did on the day that they gave the layoff notices.
If you think I am pro-management or agree with the bonuses, you're wrong. All I am saying is our union didn't even discuss this with the members knowing full well layoffs were most likely the next step. If you're happy with how CATCA handled this, that's fine.
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kevenv
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by kevenv »

Braun wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:09 pm
kevenv wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:00 pm
Braun wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:14 pm

I happen to know that they did propose a deal of this sort. Also I've heard it from reliable sources within the union and from the other side.
I suppose we could have voted to give the company a further break so that they could give the managers more than the $7 million in bonuses that they did on the day that they gave the layoff notices.
If you think I am pro-management or agree with the bonuses, you're wrong. All I am saying is our union didn't even discuss this with the members knowing full well layoffs were most likely the next step. If you're happy with how CATCA handled this, that's fine.
Relax Braun. I didn't accuse you of being anything. Nor did I mention you specifically in my reply let alone what I thought you may be thinking. You had offered your opinion which I can appreciate. I offered mine via a statement in return. I didn't suggest that you were happy with how the company handled things, why would you suggest I was happy with the way the union did?
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wapitibaby
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by wapitibaby »

The way they announced the layoffs is pretty shameful:

-Not giving a @#$! about the CATCA seniority list
-Basically telling us terminal controllers are worth more

The way CATCA has handled this ? I'm pretty sad to see a controller throwing dirt at CATCA.

Not wanting to save jobs when people are ready to take a package because they're in a privileged unit. LMAO

The thing here is that the staffing problems in certain units have been dragging on since the company was born. They didn't do anything about it, it's their problem, not any controller's problem in the company.

You can't choose who you wanna lay off by silos, it goes against the very principle of having a union. SENIORITY.

You can't decide when you wanna apply seniority or not. This is not WALMART.

To see some people stand up and support that way of doing things is absolutely ridiculous, the amount of money saved by these cuts is 5 DAYS OF LOSSES.

If the goal was really to cut the losses they should be cutting 40% of the controllers all across the country.

The company will not work at that point? It's too dangerous? Put in the restrictions, stop letting trafic fly that does not bring any revenues to Nav.

When the flying schools aren't able to fly and they all file for bankruptcy and those flights with the vaccines get delayed maybe the government will have no choice to act?

**Grab your popcorns and watch, it's a shit storm right now**
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Braun
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by Braun »

wapitibaby wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:39 pm The way they announced the layoffs is pretty shameful:

-Not giving a @#$! about the CATCA seniority list
-Basically telling us terminal controllers are worth more

The way CATCA has handled this ? I'm pretty sad to see a controller throwing dirt at CATCA.

Not wanting to save jobs when people are ready to take a package because they're in a privileged unit. LMAO

The thing here is that the staffing problems in certain units have been dragging on since the company was born. They didn't do anything about it, it's their problem, not any controller's problem in the company.

You can't choose who you wanna lay off by silos, it goes against the very principle of having a union. SENIORITY.

You can't decide when you wanna apply seniority or not. This is not WALMART.

To see some people stand up and support that way of doing things is absolutely ridiculous, the amount of money saved by these cuts is 5 DAYS OF LOSSES.

If the goal was really to cut the losses they should be cutting 40% of the controllers all across the country.

The company will not work at that point? It's too dangerous? Put in the restrictions, stop letting trafic fly that does not bring any revenues to Nav.

When the flying schools aren't able to fly and they all file for bankruptcy and those flights with the vaccines get delayed maybe the government will have no choice to act?

**Grab your popcorns and watch, it's a shit storm right now**
Where was CATCA when our controllers in units that were critically short? Where was CATCA when some units could barely take their leave, use comp, have decent schedules? You think I’m throwing dirt at CATCA but I’m not. I’m throwing dirt at a lack of transparency on their end that could’ve saved jobs. Why didn’t the union present all the options to us before layoffs were announced? Do you truly believe NAV just announced staff reductions and CATCA wasn’t aware it was coming.

These cuts, justified or no are still happening and all CATCA cares about now is seniority. I care about saving jobs personally. Not who gets fired first.

This won’t be popular but there is a reason terminals where always short. They’re harder to checkout in and qualified controllers don’t transfer to them because it’s harder. CATCA never wanted to recognize this because we are all « equal ». Except when it comes to the minority who gets shafted for working in short staffed units forever. That’s ok, right?
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wordstwice
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by wordstwice »

This is new ground for everyone in ATC. Layoffs have been part of society for everyone except some professions including ATC until
now.

Why I still hold out hope that things will turn around and any layoffs will be short term in the meantime we ALL can learn from this experience should we face it again.

On a personal note, I am very surprised at these layoffs while people involved with training are still employed and get paid to do essentially nothing. (OTS, IPS, and LQS staff for example). Shift managers are still being hired as well as some new upper management positions in YOW while operations are being reduced. There are still trainees in YVR ACC while checked out controllers are being laid off in other units.

I could go on and on but it’s just a mess!

Sorry, I really don’t have anything constructive to add, just venting.
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Braun
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by Braun »

wordstwice wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:09 pm This is new ground for everyone in ATC. Layoffs have been part of society for everyone except some professions including ATC until
now.

Why I still hold out hope that things will turn around and any layoffs will be short term in the meantime we ALL can learn from this experience should we face it again.

On a personal note, I am very surprised at these layoffs while people involved with training are still employed and get paid to do essentially nothing. (OTS, IPS, and LQS staff for example). Shift managers are still being hired as well as some new upper management positions in YOW while operations are being reduced. There are still trainees in YVR ACC while checked out controllers are being laid off in other units.

I could go on and on but it’s just a mess!

Sorry, I really don’t have anything constructive to add, just venting.
You’re 100% right and I agree with you. There are some inconsistencies in this process. Hopefully traffic will increase and we can avoid any layoffs. We should be ready for next time by making sure the process is clear beforehand instead of this circus.
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ahramin
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by ahramin »

wapitibaby wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:39 pm-Basically telling us terminal controllers are worth more
I'm not a controller and have never worked for NavCanada but from my experience dealing with YVR ACC, terminal controllers are worth more. To my uninformed eye the job looks more difficult, and the percentage of IFR controllers who can and will do the job seems to support this position. When it comes to pilots, our unions are uniform across the country that layoffs are by pure seniority but we can easily make the argument that any pilot can be retrained for any seat in any aircraft. My understanding is that NavCanada cannot layoff terminal controllers because those higher on the seniority list wouldn't fill those seats. Am I wrong?

Also most of the efforts of our unions to mitigate layoffs have met with failure, but not for lack of trying. My union has been spending a huge amount of effort negotiating with the company and going over many, many options to try to reduce the number of layoffs. Both the successes and the failures have been well communicated to the members. That CATCA has not done so speaks to a dysfunctional union. Maybe it's time for some of the younger CATCA members to start stepping up to the plate and getting involved.
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wapitibaby
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by wapitibaby »

My point here is not trying to say who's working harder or which job seems harder. There's a seniority list, respect the list, end of story. It's gonna cost money to retrain if you cut by seniority? You had from 1996 til now to solve that problem. OUPS

There's no valid argument to not respect a collective agreement. We come to work on time, we respect all the rules we have to follow. All the company policies, but we're getting fucked over at the end ? :rolleyes:

If a company loses 100 million a month and tries to justify cuts by bringing their financial status as an argument, respect yourself and cut enough to turn that situation around. Don't pretend cutting a fraction of the losses in salary is the way to go. LOL
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Negative_Unable
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by Negative_Unable »

Braun wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:49 pm

Where was CATCA when our controllers in units that were critically short? Where was CATCA when some units could barely take their leave, use comp, have decent schedules? You think I’m throwing dirt at CATCA but I’m not. I’m throwing dirt at a lack of transparency on their end that could’ve saved jobs. Why didn’t the union present all the options to us before layoffs were announced? Do you truly believe NAV just announced staff reductions and CATCA wasn’t aware it was coming.

Nailed it, Braun. As somebody working in one of those critically staffed units, I agree 100%. The lack of transparency has been incredibly frustrating.
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Mayor_McCheese
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by Mayor_McCheese »

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Last edited by Mayor_McCheese on Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
ahramin
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by ahramin »

“Thanks to Nav Canada’s decision to close air traffic control towers, some airlines are considering consolidating their Saskatchewan service to Saskatoon,” Kram said.
Any truth to this or simply someone who has no clue what they are talking about?
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Mayor_McCheese
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by Mayor_McCheese »

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FishSticks
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by FishSticks »

Will CATCA be forgoing the 3% payrise coming up in July?

Just like the one they got late last year, and the retroactive backpay?

Asking for a friend.
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RunwayWindAltimer
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by RunwayWindAltimer »

FishSticks wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:09 pm Will CATCA be forgoing the 3% payrise coming up in July?

Just like the one they got late last year, and the retroactive backpay?

Asking for a friend.
What are you talking about?
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FishSticks
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by FishSticks »

While 900 employees have been laid off, including some union members, with other staff having to job-share just to stay employed and taking pay cuts and having their pensions changed on them, CATCA employees received a 3% pay increase last year (should have been July as per the CA but was initially deferred and then demanded with retroactive pay)......and will get another 3% this July.

Not hearing much about this in the media.
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wapitibaby
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by wapitibaby »

FishSticks wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:05 am While 900 employees have been laid off, including some union members, with other staff having to job-share just to stay employed and taking pay cuts and having their pensions changed on them, CATCA employees received a 3% pay increase last year (should have been July as per the CA but was initially deferred and then demanded with retroactive pay)......and will get another 3% this July.

Not hearing much about this in the media.
@FishSticks Get your facts right
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Braun
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by Braun »

FishSticks wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:05 am While 900 employees have been laid off, including some union members, with other staff having to job-share just to stay employed and taking pay cuts and having their pensions changed on them, CATCA employees received a 3% pay increase last year (should have been July as per the CA but was initially deferred and then demanded with retroactive pay)......and will get another 3% this July.

Not hearing much about this in the media.
Nothing in the media because your facts are wrong. Make a new fake profile and try again.
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RexKrammer
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by RexKrammer »

FishSticks wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:05 am While 900 employees have been laid off, including some union members, with other staff having to job-share just to stay employed and taking pay cuts and having their pensions changed on them, CATCA employees received a 3% pay increase last year (should have been July as per the CA but was initially deferred and then demanded with retroactive pay)......and will get another 3% this July.

Not hearing much about this in the media.
Absolutely nonsense, and rightly nothing is in the media about this because it's factually incorrect. If you're going to come on here attacking CATCA try to at least get accurate information.
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FishSticks
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Re: ATC Layoffs?

Post by FishSticks »

Which part of what I posted is nonsense?

The number of people laid off? That some were union members? That some staff are job sharing? That some NAV CANADA employees have had pay cuts and are having their pensions changed? That CATCA got a pay rise last year through the CA, and will do so again in July?

Please set me straight.
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