MOA2

[Yycjetdriver]

Any Encore pilots that can confirm a new MOA signed yesterday, with 0 layoffs for a MMG of 50hours until Dec.31st?

[FlyAlberta]

Not quite the case. The 250 layoffs at Encore for May 1 are still happening. No further Q layoffs unless you cannot hold a spot once PTA bumping rights are exercised. CEWS for all pilots until program ends + partial top up for active pilots (salary not hourly. ~$5100/month for CPT ~$4600/month for FO. After CEWS ends, 50 hr MMG at applicable pay rate until end of year.

[Commonwealth]

Are these now the terms for pilots bumping into Encore?

[Yycjetdriver]

Are these now the terms for pilots bumping into Encore?

Yes, pilots “bumping” into Encore then become governed under the Encore CBA.
So the majority of June +6 months of 50MMG, wow. Kiss the onelist goodbye when this is all over. There is no possible way to live on Encore FO pay at 50mmg and unless you’re single and living in a dump Captain pay would be doubtful too. What’s the point in saving jobs when it’s under terrible conditions? Would be better off on EI or finding a minimal experience labour job.

[Blue42]

Not quite the case. The 250 layoffs at Encore for May 1 are still happening. No further Q layoffs unless you cannot hold a spot once PTA bumping rights are exercised. CEWS for all pilots until program ends + partial top up for active pilots (salary not hourly. ~$5100/month for CPT ~$4600/month for FO. After CEWS ends, 50 hr MMG at applicable pay rate until end of year.

Not quite correct either. $4500 for Capts and $4000 for FOs per month plus, roughly $600 per in lieu of flow. After Jun 6th, unless extended, it is 50 MMG per month plus the $600. This $600 is only for Encore pilots on the property on April 16th, it will not apply to Westjet crews bumping down to Encore.

[Blue42]

Are these now the terms for pilots bumping into Encore?

Yes, pilots “bumping” into Encore then become governed under the Encore CBA.
So the majority of June +6 months of 50MMG, wow. Kiss the onelist goodbye when this is all over. There is no possible way to live on Encore FO pay at 50mmg and unless you’re single and living in a dump Captain pay would be doubtful too. What’s the point in saving jobs when it’s under terrible conditions? Would be better off on EI or finding a minimal experience labour job.

At FO pay EI pay would be similar or a bit better but Capt pay would still be better, depending on the tax rate.

[jjj]

So if I understand it correctly the Encore MEC blew their load to save jobs.

150 or so jobs preserved at reduced wages until the end of the year.

In the end almost every Encore pilot on the property today gets flushed and they leave a dirty turd for the guys bumping down.

Maybe they save a handful of jobs because they soured the milk so badly for guys that wanted to bump. As if it wasn’t bad enough already to bump down and get step 1 pay.

Nothing materially gained for the Encore guys on property.

Only the company wins.

Sadly - the pilot transfer agreement is likely dead after this.

Respect to all.

JJJ

[Yycjetdriver]

So if I understand it correctly the Encore MEC blew their load to save jobs.

150 or so jobs preserved at reduced wages until the end of the year.

In the end almost every Encore pilot on the property today gets flushed and they leave a dirty turd for the guys bumping down.

Maybe they save a handful of jobs because they soured the milk so badly for guys that wanted to bump. As if it wasn’t bad enough already to bump down and get step 1 pay.

Nothing materially gained for the Encore guys on property.

Only the company wins.

Sadly - the pilot transfer agreement is likely dead after this.

Respect to all.

JJJ

+1

[Ex DC10 Driver]

+1

[Sharklasers]

Brilliant.
The encore MEC is peeing in the pool. By making the positions basically the same pay as EI they reduce the amount of mainline pilots willing to flow to Encore drastically and save many of their pilots jobs.

[hurtin'albertan]

.

[Sharklasers]

They are betting on not many people going for it, Who would choose to go pull flap and gear on a dash 8 for free?
The cherry on top is the extra 600 a month for ‘original encore’ but not for you, I wonder if they will get flight bag stickers printed up?

[sstaurus]

Come on guys. I have a real hard time believing that the goal of the Encore MEC was to ‘pee in the pool’ and make it as unappealing as possible for mainline guys to want the job. Are they a bunch of evil villains sitting around twisting their moustaches in delight at the result of this agreement? This strikes me more as a bunch of angry senior mainline guys wanting to lash out at the world any way they can.. yet again, pilots can’t play nice.

[Yycjetdriver]

Come on guys. I have a real hard time believing that the goal of the Encore MEC was to ‘pee in the pool’ and make it as unappealing as possible for mainline guys to want the job. Are they a bunch of evil villains sitting around twisting their moustaches in delight at the result of this agreement? This strikes me more as a bunch of angry senior mainline guys wanting to lash out at the world any way they can.. yet again, pilots can’t play nice.

Well there’s a lot of people who believe that was their goal, unfortunately for them many of those people are so hangry/disappointed with the companies handling of the layoffs they’re bidding the positions anyways to create training costs and backlog for the company.
There is a point when taking concessions where jobs aren’t worth saving. This MOA certainly surpasses that line, when your debating whether or not you’d make more on EI staying at home.
Not to mention who you’re helping when taking concessions, there will be a spoil up of some sorts when this is over. That will be costly and without this MOA and more layoffs it would have been move expensive, but to who? ONEX
Westjet is a privately owned company, by Onex who is currently throwing half a billion around capitalizing on the down market. That’s who you’ve helped when voting in an MOA that’ll pay you border line poverty wages.

[Babar350]

Come on guys. I have a real hard time believing that the goal of the Encore MEC was to ‘pee in the pool’ and make it as unappealing as possible for mainline guys to want the job. Are they a bunch of evil villains sitting around twisting their moustaches in delight at the result of this agreement? This strikes me more as a bunch of angry senior mainline guys wanting to lash out at the world any way they can.. yet again, pilots can’t play nice.

Well there’s a lot of people who believe that was their goal, unfortunately for them many of those people are so hangry/disappointed with the companies handling of the layoffs they’re bidding the positions anyways to create training costs and backlog for the company.
There is a point when taking concessions where jobs aren’t worth saving. This MOA certainly surpasses that line, when your debating whether or not you’d make more on EI staying at home.
Not to mention who you’re helping when taking concessions, there will be a spoil up of some sorts when this is over. That will be costly and without this MOA and more layoffs it would have been move expensive, but to who? ONEX
Westjet is a privately owned company, by Onex who is currently throwing half a billion around capitalizing on the down market. That’s who you’ve helped when voting in an MOA that’ll pay you border line poverty wages.

Help me understand how a 4500$ captain pay will be less or equal that EI.
By the way , what did you want? No agreement and all Encore pilots on the street to give room to mainline guy?

[sstaurus]

Those initial figures are only as long as the CEWS program lives. After that, 50mmg till end of year. It's only an FO spot that will be marginal compared to EI.

[Babar350]

so 50 x 80 is nowhere near EI. Still willing to understand this statement

when your debating whether or not you’d make more on EI staying at home.

Those initial figures are only as long as the CEWS program lives. After that, 50mmg till end of year. It's only an FO spot that will be marginal compared to EI.

FO would be 50 x 50 ( because there will be no junior FO ) + 600, which makes $3100. So again, nowhere near EI.

[Jean-Pierre]

Ah the scorched earth strategy.

[Stratopaused]

Jesus Christ, you guys are complete narcissists if you think the primary factor in everyone's decision-making is how it affects you. Under the current circumstances, I don't think anyone is looking for ways to screw anyone else, they're just trying to keep their heads above water. I can't speak for the MEC, but I really doubt they were trying to create a poison pill to deter jet pilots from bumping down; otherwise, they wouldn't have kept the pay at double the EI max. Maybe they assumed the WestJet MEC would negotiate a similar agreement to mitigate layoffs and that no one would have to bump. Maybe they thought the extra 142 positions would be enough to accommodate all the jet pilots who bid to come down, but looking at the layoff stats I don't think anyone is under the illusion that a single current Encore pilot will be left employed. If anything, the MEC just negotiated for an extra 142 jet pilots to stay employed, even if it's at lower pay than you wanted. What did you expect, that you could be Dash FOs for jet captain pay? The negotiated FO pay is actually higher than what FOs made before on a 75-hour block, as a way of compensating captains who get demoted, so half of you will be better-off anyway. You never cared about low pay at Encore until it possibly affected you; you have no sympathy for the FOs who have been living on $3300/month and who will be making $2000/month until the CERB runs out, after which they won't get maxed out for EI. Boy, we really pity the guys taking our jobs who will be making at least double what we are while we're off work.
In the meantime, as a way of lashing out at someone, anyone, for a situation that is out of everyone's control, you're going to repeal the PTA. Everyone currently on the property is grandfathered in, so you won't be punishing any of the people you hold responsible for the MOA, but you'll be eliminating the bump-down language that was a sticking point with the PTA in the first place. You'll prevent anyone who hasn't officially moved to Encore from bumping, resulting in their layoffs, and allow the company to recall 100% of Encore pilots without bringing back a single WestJet or Swoop pilot. In the future, management will be able to lay off every jet pilot before touching a single Encore pilot, and everyone already working here retains our positions on the One List. Brilliant strategy, Crassus. (-_-)ゞ

[carnie]

Just wondering how you guys are coming up with 5100 per month based in the CEWS. Its a maximum of 75% of 58700 which equates to just over 44000 per year which would then be approx 1300 a pay. Without the 25% top up how did you come up with that figure?

[kiaszceski]

but you'll be eliminating the bump-down language that was a sticking point with the PTA in the first place. You'll prevent anyone who hasn't officially moved to Encore from bumping, resulting in their layoffs, and allow the company to recall 100% of Encore pilots without bringing back a single WestJet or Swoop pilot. In the future, management will be able to lay off every jet pilot before touching a single Encore pilot, and everyone already working here retains our positions on the One List.

Finally someone wise enough

[DirtyDashDriver]

Let's take the foot off the brake here. No one wants to sewer a mainline pilot or voted for reduced wages to stop mainline pilots from bumping down. I want mainline pilots to be able to bump down with decent conditions as that's what I voted for with the PTA in order to be able to move up in good times, so this was not some sneak attack or an attempt to stop bump downs. That never entered my mind when completing the survey that helped to give the MEC a clear mandate.

There are two key differences between a lay-off at mainline and Encore. At mainline, you are awarded lay-off pay. It may be small, but it's something. Encore pilots are not provided any form of lay-off pay protection in our contract. Second, mainline pilots can bump Encore pilots, but Encore pilots cannot then bump a more junior mainline pilot should such a situation arise. Ergo, any lay-off for an Encore pilot is straight to the street without passing go or the knowledge they may still get to keep a job.

Many Encore pilots are in their first or second job and possibly their first downturn. They're scared. They don't know that this will work out in two, three, or four years. They can't afford the $300 to cancel their TV package or pay out the second mobile phone. They're literally and figuratively screwed in a lay-off situation. So they do what anyone who feels backed into a corner does, they look at their own survival and vote to keep their job above all else.

That's the so-called enemy you are targeting right now. Not a seasoned pilot with maybe a small amount of cash savings to sit on, but a young, scared man or woman who is wondering how to tell their young wife or husband they can no longer pay the rent or the mortgage; A person who has heard the word 'destitute,' and is now wondering if it will apply to them in a month.

Woe is us, perhaps, but mainline pilots saying this was an attempt of Encore pilots to flank their mainline brothers and sisters out of the PTA is nonsense. It was an attempt to stave off financial ruin for a month.

As far as a mainline pilot making less than an Encore pilot because of the REIP adjustment, that's the company actually following a contract for a change. They'd be in violation otherwise. The Encore pilot is not accruing YOS at mainline, so what the Encore pilot makes in the short term, the mainline pilot makes in the long term.

Should it have been removed to make for a more level playing field? Perhaps, but it certainly wasn't an intentional hit to stop someone from coming down. I'd certainly be game for asking the MEC to go back and see what we can't do for the mainline pilots who bump, but not if you're going to continue to kick a bunch of people who are already down.

[m9:24]

Disregard

[jjj]

A lot of misunderstanding on this thread.

All the mainline guys wanted was the deal they fought for.

There is no entitlement and no one is spoiled. Lots of the jet guys were Encore guys. All of us pulling in the same direction.

Among other things - Encore gets a seniority spot on a list and the Jet guys get some whipsaw protection. Again - everyone pulling in the same direction.

An Encore guy spends years on the Dash then when he comes up to mainline he gets a shot at his old job in a down bid situation. There is some fairness in that I think.

Lots of guys taking a lay off and even the Jet guys are getting shafted through various scenarios affected by things like how the company wants to handle recalls.

Contrary to the above - no jet guys expected to fly a Dash at their previous wages. They wanted the deal that was on the table - that is all.

Take care of yourselves and your families and your friends.

JJJ

[George Taylor]

This MOA is going to high light unintended consequences. Moving the goal posts at the 11th hour. Fair enough to look out for your own. We’ll see how the majority feels when the dust settles.