Snowbird crash in CYKA

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fleet16b
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by fleet16b »

Outlaw58 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:49 am Been doing really good biting my tongue and not jump in...until now.

Speaking as a former Snowbird 10, I'll say out loud what quite a number of my former squadron mates are thinking, reading uninformed opinions and unsubstantiated assumptions from unqualified individuals written from the comfort of their living rooms with the luxury of a complete accident report, hindsight 20/20 and unlimited amount of time to ponder the actions of a pilot who had mere seconds to act:

"How dare you judge and think you or anyone would have done better?" You guys sound like the investigation board that tried to demonstrate Sully could have made it back to Teterborough or La Guardia! Let's get serious now shall we? I believe he would say.

A bon entendeur, Salut!

58
Lighten up Francis 🙄

I don’t see anyone saying they could do it better.
Besides , this section of the Forum is about discussing aviation accidents , hence the title of it and that’s what we are doing.
Yes there has been an official report issued and now we are discussing it . There is no prerequisite that you must be X military to understand some pretty basic aviation skills and rules.
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by PilotDAR »

I extend to the pilot my belief that he did the best he could, as he was trained to do, with a bad situation, at the worst possible time.

Presuming that he flew as trained, I have uncertainty about the training, as it would seem to have a pilot attempt a turn back after an EFATO. I don't know RCAF training, nor Tutor jets, maybe it's okay to attempt that in that type. But, for reasons which are apparent to me, it did not work. I believe those are the same reasons it is not trained, nor a normal procedure, in civil flying.

No civil pilot should infer from this topic that a turn back after an EFATO should be attempted, and the outcome of this accident would support that understanding.
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by fleet16b »

PilotDAR wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:43 pm I extend to the pilot my belief that he did the best he could, as he was trained to do, with a bad situation, at the worst possible time.

Presuming that he flew as trained, I have uncertainty about the training, as it would seem to have a pilot attempt a turn back after an EFATO. I don't know RCAF training, nor Tutor jets, maybe it's okay to attempt that in that type. But, for reasons which are apparent to me, it did not work. I believe those are the same reasons it is not trained, nor a normal procedure, in civil flying.

No civil pilot should infer from this topic that a turn back after an EFATO should be attempted, and the outcome of this accident would support that understanding.
Very well said
I really cannot understand the reasoning behind turning back
Except to possibly try to save the aircraft , something that is secondary at best .
Now where can I find this in the Tutor manual , it simply states that if there is no successful re-light , you eject or force land
0 mention of attempting to turn back to the airfield
It is pretty clear that turning back , though apparently an unwritten option in the military , is not a very good option.
Never has been
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by Bandit_20 »

fleet16b wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:01 pm
PilotDAR wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:43 pm I extend to the pilot my belief that he did the best he could, as he was trained to do, with a bad situation, at the worst possible time.

Presuming that he flew as trained, I have uncertainty about the training, as it would seem to have a pilot attempt a turn back after an EFATO. I don't know RCAF training, nor Tutor jets, maybe it's okay to attempt that in that type. But, for reasons which are apparent to me, it did not work. I believe those are the same reasons it is not trained, nor a normal procedure, in civil flying.

No civil pilot should infer from this topic that a turn back after an EFATO should be attempted, and the outcome of this accident would support that understanding.
Very well said
I really cannot understand the reasoning behind turning back
Except to possibly try to save the aircraft , something that is secondary at best .
Now where can I find this in the Tutor manual , it simply states that if there is no successful re-light , you eject or force land
0 mention of attempting to turn back to the airfield
It is pretty clear that turning back , though apparently an unwritten option in the military , is not a very good option.
Never has been
I really cannot understand the reasoning behind your continued lack of professional courtesy as an "aviator".
May you be so fortunate to never find yourself dealt a similar hand of cards.
It is pretty clear that without having spent a day flying for the RCAF, or a Snowbird Tutor, your speculation and opinions- are not very good options.
Never have been.
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by Skyhunter »

fleet16b wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:01 pm
PilotDAR wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:43 pm I extend to the pilot my belief that he did the best he could, as he was trained to do, with a bad situation, at the worst possible time.

Presuming that he flew as trained, I have uncertainty about the training, as it would seem to have a pilot attempt a turn back after an EFATO. I don't know RCAF training, nor Tutor jets, maybe it's okay to attempt that in that type. But, for reasons which are apparent to me, it did not work. I believe those are the same reasons it is not trained, nor a normal procedure, in civil flying.

No civil pilot should infer from this topic that a turn back after an EFATO should be attempted, and the outcome of this accident would support that understanding.
Very well said
I really cannot understand the reasoning behind turning back
Except to possibly try to save the aircraft , something that is secondary at best .
Now where can I find this in the Tutor manual , it simply states that if there is no successful re-light , you eject or force land
0 mention of attempting to turn back to the airfield
It is pretty clear that turning back , though apparently an unwritten option in the military , is not a very good option.
Never has been
There are 2 manuals for Tutor operations. One is the AOI’s. It is the technical manual. It will the emergency procedures and memory items. Ie what switch to flip, button to press, lever to move, operational envelope, performance diagrams etc. Think of it as the numbers book.

I think that is the one you have.

There is also a “How to fly” manual. It expands on aircraft maneuvers and how they are specifically flown. It sounds like you don’t have it.

I say that 16B, because you sound like you have no clue what you are talking about.
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by fleet16b »

Skyhunter wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:20 pm
fleet16b wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:01 pm
PilotDAR wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:43 pm I extend to the pilot my belief that he did the best he could, as he was trained to do, with a bad situation, at the worst possible time.

Presuming that he flew as trained, I have uncertainty about the training, as it would seem to have a pilot attempt a turn back after an EFATO. I don't know RCAF training, nor Tutor jets, maybe it's okay to attempt that in that type. But, for reasons which are apparent to me, it did not work. I believe those are the same reasons it is not trained, nor a normal procedure, in civil flying.

No civil pilot should infer from this topic that a turn back after an EFATO should be attempted, and the outcome of this accident would support that understanding.
Very well said
I really cannot understand the reasoning behind turning back
Except to possibly try to save the aircraft , something that is secondary at best .
Now where can I find this in the Tutor manual , it simply states that if there is no successful re-light , you eject or force land
0 mention of attempting to turn back to the airfield
It is pretty clear that turning back , though apparently an unwritten option in the military , is not a very good option.
Never has been
There are 2 manuals for Tutor operations. One is the AOI’s. It is the technical manual. It will the emergency procedures and memory items. Ie what switch to flip, button to press, lever to move, operational envelope, performance diagrams etc. Think of it as the numbers book.

I think that is the one you have.

There is also a “How to fly” manual. It expands on aircraft maneuvers and how they are specifically flown. It sounds like you don’t have it.

I say that 16B, because you sound like you have no clue what you are talking about.
Really ? What have I no clue about ?
I am quoting the CT12-114 -000/MC-000 Normal Ops Procedures manual that I have access to.
Please show me the page in your manual where it suggests turning back to the runway , because it’s nowhere to be found .
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by Bandit_20 »

Your opinionated and uninformed post this week- that was deleted from a (predominantly serving and ex-RCAF mbr) facebook group by the mods should've made it clear to you 16b that you have no idea what you're talking about.

The Snowbirds, RCAF, CAF and generally the aviation community as a whole are families within themselves. Many of those family members saw what was written and did not appreciate your comments and kindly ask that you refrain.

Thank you.
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by fleet16b »

Bandit_20 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:52 pm Your opinionated and uninformed post this week- that was deleted from a (predominantly serving and ex-RCAF mbr) facebook group by the mods should've made it clear to you 16b that you have no idea what you're talking about.

The Snowbirds, RCAF, CAF and generally the aviation community as a whole are families within themselves. Many of those family members saw what was written and did not appreciate your comments and kindly ask that you refrain.

Thank you.
Bulls&@t
Funny that’s not what the admin said when I spoke with him and only two people asked him to delete it AND other peoples threads on the subject were also deleted.
He decided that everyone’s threads on the subject should be filtered from the page
If this was a civilian event , it would be discussed in even more length than this thread has but you military types dont like anyone discussing military accidents
Censorship at its finest
I remind again, this is an Accidents and incidents forum were we discussed such events ...... get it Karen?
Further , still have not seen anyone come up with a copy of this “turn back to the field procedure”
Does it exist or is it just an unsaid rule as some here suggested ?
Respectfully I’m not saying it does or does not exist but for some reason nobody can produce it here
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by Skyhunter »

fleet16b wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:32 pm
Skyhunter wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:20 pm
fleet16b wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:01 pm
Very well said
I really cannot understand the reasoning behind turning back
Except to possibly try to save the aircraft , something that is secondary at best .
Now where can I find this in the Tutor manual , it simply states that if there is no successful re-light , you eject or force land
0 mention of attempting to turn back to the airfield
It is pretty clear that turning back , though apparently an unwritten option in the military , is not a very good option.
Never has been
There are 2 manuals for Tutor operations. One is the AOI’s. It is the technical manual. It will the emergency procedures and memory items. Ie what switch to flip, button to press, lever to move, operational envelope, performance diagrams etc. Think of it as the numbers book.

I think that is the one you have.

There is also a “How to fly” manual. It expands on aircraft maneuvers and how they are specifically flown. It sounds like you don’t have it.

I say that 16B, because you sound like you have no clue what you are talking about.
Really ? What have I no clue about ?
I am quoting the CT12-114 -000/MC-000 Normal Ops Procedures manual that I have access to.
Please show me the page in your manual where it suggests turning back to the runway , because it’s nowhere to be found .
First of all, I have long since disposed of my manuals, as in 20 years ago. So to be able to point out a page number for something might be more than a little difficult even if I felt the need. I did however teach FLIT (fighter lead-in) and Tutor refresher courses at the Flight Instructor School.

I never once said the book said to turn back. I really don’t care if does. What matters is it does not say don’t turn back. From my days and my somewhat long in the tooth memory what the book clearly said was zoom and assess. The asses means two things. Asses the engine. Assess the energy. If I have enough altitude I can force land. It is not rocket science to realise that if I make the assessment I have enough altitude to force land I will have to turn towards the place I am going to land.

When I flew the tutor I had some rules of thumb for what altitude I would need to make a force landing from different parts of the traffic patter. I have long since forgotten them.

Quite frankly unless you have some high performance jet time you should not be remotely speculating the way you are.

If you had of approached this subject in a non-judgmental and respectful way I probably would have replied in kind.

Instead you try to come off as an expert because you have one manual but with 0 experience.

You should notice I have never specifically said what this pilot did or didn’t do was correct or incorrect. That is because I don’t have all the information and even if I did I would not. I wouldn’t presume to do so on a public forum.

When you have all the manuals not just one, and a couple thousand hours on high performance single pilot jets we might have a conversation on the topic. It would however be over a beer in bar and not in front of a public audience.
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by fleet16b »

Skyhunter wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:30 pm
fleet16b wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:32 pm
Skyhunter wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:20 pm

There are 2 manuals for Tutor operations. One is the AOI’s. It is the technical manual. It will the emergency procedures and memory items. Ie what switch to flip, button to press, lever to move, operational envelope, performance diagrams etc. Think of it as the numbers book.

I think that is the one you have.

There is also a “How to fly” manual. It expands on aircraft maneuvers and how they are specifically flown. It sounds like you don’t have it.

I say that 16B, because you sound like you have no clue what you are talking about.
Really ? What have I no clue about ?
I am quoting the CT12-114 -000/MC-000 Normal Ops Procedures manual that I have access to.
Please show me the page in your manual where it suggests turning back to the runway , because it’s nowhere to be found .
First of all, I have long since disposed of my manuals, as in 20 years ago. So to be able to point out a page number for something might be more than a little difficult even if I felt the need. I did however teach FLIT (fighter lead-in) and Tutor refresher courses at the Flight Instructor School.

I never once said the book said to turn back. I really don’t care if does. What matters is it does not say don’t turn back. From my days and my somewhat long in the tooth memory what the book clearly said was zoom and assess. The asses means two things. Asses the engine. Assess the energy. If I have enough altitude I can force land. It is not rocket science to realise that if I make the assessment I have enough altitude to force land I will have to turn towards the place I am going to land.

When I flew the tutor I had some rules of thumb for what altitude I would need to make a force landing from different parts of the traffic patter. I have long since forgotten them.

Quite frankly unless you have some high performance jet time you should not be remotely speculating the way you are.

If you had of approached this subject in a non-judgmental and respectful way I probably would have replied in kind.

Instead you try to come off as an expert because you have one manual but with 0 experience.

You should notice I have never specifically said what this pilot did or didn’t do was correct or incorrect. That is because I don’t have all the information and even if I did I would not. I wouldn’t presume to do so on a public forum.

When you have all the manuals not just one, and a couple thousand hours on high performance single pilot jets we might have a conversation on the topic. It would however be over a beer in bar and not in front of a public audience.
I have tried to post the manual page I am quoting
I’m told it’s from the latest version and like said , not turn back procedure but many here who say they are military state that
turning back is a procedure that they are taught in the RCAF
How many manual are there on how to fly the Tutor would there not only one ? The latest revised version ?

No I do not feel I’m an expert , you used that term not me .
Whether you are in a light aircraft or high performance aircraft , the principles of flight are relatively common
Trying to make it back to an airfield after engine failure has always been a no no . the SB’s have had other unsuccessful event like this so , jet a/c or not it’s obviously risky.
So why teach this method when landing as straight ahead as possible or ejecting is so much safer ?
I would assume ejection would be the safer route than riding a jet aircraft into a farm field somewhere
Keeping a relatively straight flight path while maintaining airspeed is surely safer than risking the loss of that airspeed by turning back to the airport even in a high performance aircraft , so why does the RCAF use it ?
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by fleet16b »

Here is the page from the Tutor manual
Sorry for double picture , I had trouble posting it
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by fleet16b »

Here is another part
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by SpyPilot »

"Bullshit"

"Lighten up Francis"

"get it Karen?"

16b. You type like you're a douchebag, you read like you're a douchebag therefore I think you're a douchebag.
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by fleet16b »

SpyPilot wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:06 am "Bullshit"

"Lighten up Francis"

"get it Karen?"

16b. You type like you're a douchebag, you read like you're a douchebag therefore I think you're a douchebag.
Ok so people respond to me in an insulting manner which to you is ok and I respond in kind so it’s is me that is the douchebag .... ok🙄

So let’s recap
The snowbirds suffer the tragic loss an airshow
The incident is discussed on a PRIVATE forum in a section here that is set up specifically for discussing incidence and accidents
Many people state what they suspect caused the problem
Some people take offence to that and respond in kind
The RCAF releases their accident investigation report to the PUBLIC
As suspected by many forum members here, the accident was caused by a bird ingestion , engine failure and attempt to return to base resulting in a stall.
It is further discussed here on the PRIVATE incident /accident forum but many military times take offence to civilians having an opinion.

I may come across as brash ,course or a douche bag like one guy called me . No problem, I can take it .
I have been flying 35 years and I’ve lost some friends over the years . Two of them died in pretty much the same scenario( no bird ingestion) but in propeller Aircraft not a Jet craft.
Both had many more years an hours flying aircraft than the Snowbird pilot did and yet they still could not fight the temptation to return to the airfield after experiencing engine failure.
- On a side note I will say that the S/B pilot did a great job quickly recovering from the spin but alas ran out of altitude
It’s been pounded into peoples minds from day one while learning to fly . DO NOT Attempt to return to the runway if you experience and engine failure and yet people try anyway
You may not agree with how this discussion has progressed but the main goal is to teach people what to do and what not to do and hopefully try to stay alive
Learn from what has happened


I guess there’s really not much more that can be said from this entire discussion that hasn’t already been said
So flame away at me as is the AVCanada , way it really doesn’t matter to me at all
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Last edited by fleet16b on Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by Skyhunter »

fleet16b wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:06 pm Here is the page from the Tutor manual
Sorry for double picture , I had trouble posting it
As I said you have one manual. Does your manual describe the forced landing pattern. Where high key, low key, and final key are and crossing altitudes. How to deal with excess altitude. How to assess your profile? What speed you should glide at. Threshold crossing speed.

You have the AOI’s (it may be named something different 20 years later). It is says eject or forced land. The book you are looking for is the one that tells you how to forced land. Forced land does not mean don’t turn!

I have let you know this several times.... there is more than one book! And you have neither te information or the experience to be making your conclusions.

You also don’t have the wisdom to not say things in public forum that shouldn’t be.
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by fleet16b »

I understand there are more than one manual
Many people of told me that the turnback procedure is part of one of the manuals but nobody seems to be able to produce that and that’s all I was asking for.
With regard to the conclusions of how the accident happened, was I or any other forum member here wrong when we concluded
that he attempted to return to the field and it resulted in a stall ?
The RCAF announced that publicly so why can’t it be discussed here? It’s may be sensitive to some but it is why this section was created
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by Zaibatsu »

Sorry fleet, but that won’t ever happen.

As soon as they produce the manual with the forced landing procedure it will slam dunk your argument because there is no way the aircraft could ever make any of the points described within it and likely would give minimum altitudes and airspeeds that were not achieved.

It’s far easier for them to keep that information hidden and laud their experience and say that you could never know because you’ve never done it.

Even though that you know and I know that had he followed what a pre solo student was taught that his passenger would still be alive today.

And going forward, I’m willing to bet that the Snowbirds amended manuals eliminate any attempt to turn back with engine failure below 1000 feet.
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by stone69 »

I've been following this and have not to this point commented.... there are so many issues that are subject to conjecture in this accident and as it's a slow day around here, I'll make a few comments.... for what it's worth, I was on the third course to train on the Tutor in Gimli in 1965..... I know that's historical, but I remember to this day, that turning back was a no-no and never taught. Some are suggesting that at some point turn backs were advocated and in the " book "..... certainly not in my days flying the Tutor which were from 1965-70. Going through some old books yesterday, I came across the Tutor Check List ( TC-105/ October 1965 ) and just as I thought, there was a procedure in the Red Pages ( Critical Emergencies Require Immediate Action ) for Bird Ingestion and the required drill was: Reduce Power to Approx 70 %....Advance Power Slowly to 85 %.... Repeat several Times ( if necessary )...Maintain 85 % and Land As Soon As Possible...... I remember this being a point of major discussion with my instructors as a birdstrike shortly after T/O wouldn't allow the time to do this and still eject successfully. The way they wanted that done was to use whatever excess speed to gain altitude while simultaneously " pumping the throttle back to 70% or so and then re-applying power to 85 % " .... those numbers were just numbers really as they wanted the power reduced and re-applied, but there really wasn't any expectation that those numbers would be met as flying the aircraft and deciding whether to get out or not was paramount....there was another one line procedure in this section... Engine Fails to Relight and the action was: Eject or do a Forced Landing.... as it was very early in the Tutor program, we did not have a simulator in which to practice these emergencies, so it was done out in the area and it was very evident that the Bird Ingestion checklist probably wouldn't be the best move right after takeoff.... another thing that seems to be glossed over is the fact that Capt MacDougall didn't have a lot of time on the Tutor. I stand to be corrected, but the Tutor was not used when he trained and it was only when he became a co-ordinator for the team that he flew the Tutor. Given that he was primarily just flying point to point for team events, I think his lack of experience on the Tutor is a significant factor. One previous comment about the departure being a stunt also deserves comment. I've watched the vids of the departure and it appears to be normal.... after T/O I was taught to use a shallow climb in order to get 240kts and then climb out at 240.....which looks pretty much like what he was doing. I'm not going to engage in what was done or what some think should have been done... I just thought I'd add a bit from many years ago....
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by stone69 »

I've been following this and have not to this point commented.... there are so many issues that are subject to conjecture in this accident and as it's a slow day around here, I'll make a few comments.... for what it's worth, I was on the third course to train on the Tutor in Gimli in 1965..... I know that's historical, but I remember to this day, that turning back was a no-no and never taught. Some are suggesting that at some point turn backs were advocated and in the " book "..... certainly not in my days flying the Tutor which were from 1965-70. Going through some old books yesterday, I came across the Tutor Check List ( TC-105/ October 1965 ) and just as I thought, there was a procedure in the Red Pages ( Critical Emergencies Require Immediate Action ) for Bird Ingestion and the required drill was: Reduce Power to Approx 70 %....Advance Power Slowly to 85 %.... Repeat several Times ( if necessary )...Maintain 85 % and Land As Soon As Possible...... I remember this being a point of major discussion with my instructors as a birdstrike shortly after T/O wouldn't allow the time to do this and still eject successfully. The way they wanted that done was to use whatever excess speed to gain altitude while simultaneously " pumping the throttle back to 70% or so and then re-applying power to 85 % " .... those numbers were just numbers really as they wanted the power reduced and re-applied, but there really wasn't any expectation that those numbers would be met as flying the aircraft and deciding whether to get out or not was paramount....there was another one line procedure in this section... Engine Fails to Relight and the action was: Eject or do a Forced Landing.... as it was very early in the Tutor program, we did not have a simulator in which to practice these emergencies, so it was done out in the area and it was very evident that the Bird Ingestion checklist probably wouldn't be the best move right after takeoff.... another thing that seems to be glossed over is the fact that Capt MacDougall didn't have a lot of time on the Tutor. I stand to be corrected, but the Tutor was not used when he trained and it was only when he became a co-ordinator for the team that he flew the Tutor. Given that he was primarily just flying point to point for team events, I think his lack of experience on the Tutor is a significant factor. One previous comment about the departure being a stunt also deserves comment. I've watched the vids of the departure and it appears to be normal.... after T/O I was taught to use a shallow climb in order to get 240kts and then climb out at 240.....which looks pretty much like what he was doing. I'm not going to engage in what was done or what some think should have been done... I just thought I'd add a bit from many years ago....
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Re: Snowbird crash in CYKA

Post by fleet16b »

Skyhunter wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:43 am
fleet16b wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:06 pm Here is the page from the Tutor manual
Sorry for double picture , I had trouble posting it
As I said you have one manual. Does your manual describe the forced landing pattern. Where high key, low key, and final key are and crossing altitudes. How to deal with excess altitude. How to assess your profile? What speed you should glide at. Threshold crossing speed.

You have the AOI’s (it may be named something different 20 years later). It is says eject or forced land. The book you are looking for is the one that tells you how to forced land. Forced land does not mean don’t turn!

I have let you know this several times.... there is more than one book! And you have neither te information or the experience to be making your conclusions.

You also don’t have the wisdom to not say things in public forum that shouldn’t be.
I pretty sure you know that force land means minimal turning as possible and definitely does not suggest turning 180 deg back to the airfield
Doing shallow turns 45deg to the left or right to make a field is one thing but I doubt a 180 deg turn is what the manual suggests
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