Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
rudder
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3848
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by rudder »

TheStig wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:58 am
I usually agree with your comments, but not the first two sentences. Both carriers provide leisure air travel, that's pretty comparable. Rouge has evolved significantly since it's launch; the A319's were to provide competition to stop WJ's unimpeded growth and the B767's with Transat over the Atlantic. Both were successful, WJ has completely changed their business model and AC is buying Transat.

Rouge does provide a J class product on the B767's equivalent to a narrow body J class seats that not what Transat offers on their A330's?
From a historical perspective, that argument could be made. But circa 2021, there is no such thing as a Rouge 767 and according to CR that will not change. Rouge fleet is 319/321 only. And if the TRZ acquisition is consummated, highly unlikely that a Rouge paint job will be added to any AC WB.

TS has offered a dedicated leisure product since 1986. They are good at it. Give credit where credit is due. Both Rouge and SWG were scrambling to match TS level of in flight service.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
LittleNelly
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:07 am

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by LittleNelly »

rudder wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:45 am
TheStig wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:58 am
I usually agree with your comments, but not the first two sentences. Both carriers provide leisure air travel, that's pretty comparable. Rouge has evolved significantly since it's launch; the A319's were to provide competition to stop WJ's unimpeded growth and the B767's with Transat over the Atlantic. Both were successful, WJ has completely changed their business model and AC is buying Transat.

Rouge does provide a J class product on the B767's equivalent to a narrow body J class seats that not what Transat offers on their A330's?
From a historical perspective, that argument could be made. But circa 2021, there is no such thing as a Rouge 767 and according to CR that will not change. Rouge fleet is 319/321 only. And if the TRZ acquisition is consummated, highly unlikely that a Rouge paint job will be added to any AC WB.

TS has offered a dedicated leisure product since 1986. They are good at it. Give credit where credit is due. Both Rouge and SWG were scrambling to match TS level of in flight service.
Rouge and Sunwing were however financially responsible with an aim at maintaining profitable service. Transat was a financial disaster taking losses, and at best a meager profit, during the most lucrative decade in the history of air travel.
If Air Canada takes Transat over they will take an axe to service and raise prices. They will look to drive yields back up over the Atlantic. People don't like it, well that's the nice part of having a defacto monopoly. People will eventually turn to hate Transat just like they do Rouge now.

In the end "brand" really only matters for those frequent business travelers that love their points and service. For leisure people won't even care, nor look, at what plane they are getting on. They will always go with the lowest price unfortunately.
---------- ADS -----------
 
GATRKGA
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:24 pm

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by GATRKGA »

No matter how you spin it, the consolidation will result in a stronger unit than apart.

All pilots at both companies will have long careers. Regardless of some of the straws being grasped at by some.

The redundancies and permanent lay offs will be in support staff capacity. That’s it.

Rudder has the most logical idea about how this plays out.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Tdicommuter
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Tdicommuter »

I don't think anyone has said the product offered by Transat was inferior... The issue is if it is profitable. Based on what I saw it does not look like it was. I suspect that means something still change. What or how I have no idea. The low hanging fruit would be seat density I would think.

I think the lie we are trying ourselves is that passengers really care.

Spirit has one of the worst customer satisfaction every year and yet they grow and make loads of money. Alternatively Ward Air's service was unlike anything... My parents still talk about how amazing it was.... And they went broke as well. I don't say that as a slight, merely pointing out that if the company (especially air Canada) can't make money they are more than willing to sacrifice inflight service to increase profitability.

Now how does any of that affect the people in the pointy end... Who knows... I'd say there are a couple people who concretely have an idea and I doubt they share on this forum.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chooch918Heavy
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:40 am

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Chooch918Heavy »

I think it’s interesting to note that if Rouge had not entered the Leisure market and put excess capacity on all south/TATL routes I don’t think we’d find ourselves here today with a possible merger.
Would AC buy TS if the Rouge brand was actually profitable? I don’t think so.
With both competing so heavily neither was making money(comparing leisure brands). I don’t have the answer but I’m just curious how it all came about.
Was the plan to put pressure and acquire TS? Sounds like CR was looking to acquire TS for quite some time.
---------- ADS -----------
 
GATRKGA
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:24 pm

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by GATRKGA »

Chooch918Heavy wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:03 pm I think it’s interesting to note that if Rouge had not entered the Leisure market and put excess capacity on all south/TATL routes I don’t think we’d find ourselves here today with a possible merger.
Would AC buy TS if the Rouge brand was actually profitable? I don’t think so.
With both competing so heavily neither was making money(comparing leisure brands). I don’t have the answer but I’m just curious how it all came about.
Was the plan to put pressure and acquire TS? Sounds like CR was looking to acquire TS for quite some time.
Exactly.

Ac pilots bought into the idea of ruthlessly competing and killing a heavily subsidized TS because you know, 2.5x draft, fast upgrades, and no reserve, and what do they get instead? The TS chickens coming home to roost.

This TS/AC merger is ironic because AC pilots thought they had the upper hand the entire time with Rouge. Many naively still think they do, it’s sad and amusing all at once. Paradoxical.

Calin should be hailed in the light he’s retiring. He is one hell of a business man.

Hopefully the lessons over the last 10 years can be learned and not repeated as a collective TS/AC group. I’m not hopeful but one can only dream.

Good luck!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Tdicommuter
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Tdicommuter »

I'm not sure I get your point? You think Air Canada did not make money while using rouge? Or is your point that air Canada should not have competed against Transat in the leisure market?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chooch918Heavy
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:40 am

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Chooch918Heavy »

I believe in healthy competition. I’m not saying that these routes belong to TS and Ac should have never entered. I just think that Ac Rouge entered the market to possibly put pressure and acquire TS. I know Ac has been profitable. Rouge itself however is a different story. I suppose after several years of these leisure brands not getting traction, consolidation was inevitable once CR realized TS isn’t going anywhere.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Fanblade
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1693
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Fanblade »

Chooch918Heavy wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:02 am I just think that Ac Rouge entered the market to possibly put pressure and acquire TS.
No. The comments from management was to put Transat out of business. But of course they couldn’t tell their pilots the plan was really to force the Transat share price into acquisition territory. ACPA would not have participated.

No CEO is going to spend the time and $$$ to put its prey into acquisition territory and then let someone else swoop in.

This is the thing we must remember. Anytime your boss says I want to put xxxx out of business, what they probably mean is hurt them to the point that acquisition is cheap.

There were voices warning ACPA from the very beginning that creating Rouge wouldn’t in the long run create jobs. It would instead lead to consolidation and merger.
---------- ADS -----------
 
sanjet
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 920
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:54 am

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by sanjet »

Just a reminder that Rouge was created with FOS. We never voted in a B scale operation, it was forced upon us.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Tdicommuter
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Tdicommuter »

It looks like you are suggesting that rouge was not making money?

Rouge was redeployed to regional replacement flying
We were using 321's to do yyz-yqb. I don't think that was a ploy to put Transat in the ground.

My point is that Transat as you know it will change one way or another. This is like the ward air, or Canadian guys saying we have a loyal following and people love our brand. That may be true; however the paramount fact is that the airline needs to make money and Transat did not. Whatever, or however that happened is a different point altogether and not relevant to the future. If it's
the name that matters, that's all that will stand. The execs at AC seem to be pretty good at extracting gains from all kinds of places. I clearly do not know the future but if I were to wager on what happens I'm guessing higher seat density, ancillary fees, loyalty program integration.

All this is beyond our abilities to control though. Trying to argue over why we ended up where we are is futile. It won't change the future.

You guys are comparable to the Titanic. Standing on the deck of a sinking ship arguing about how good the service and brand are will not get you off the boat. Get on the life boat, be happy you didn't drown and let's all move forward. We don't have any control over what the execs do so let's try and improve the industry and our working conditions however we can.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Localizer
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:18 pm
Location: CYYZ

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Localizer »

All of us may well be on the Titanic still ..
---------- ADS -----------
 
Cappo1
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Cappo1 »

GATRKGA wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:01 am
Chooch918Heavy wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:03 pm I think it’s interesting to note that if Rouge had not entered the Leisure market and put excess capacity on all south/TATL routes I don’t think we’d find ourselves here today with a possible merger.
Would AC buy TS if the Rouge brand was actually profitable? I don’t think so.
With both competing so heavily neither was making money(comparing leisure brands). I don’t have the answer but I’m just curious how it all came about.
Was the plan to put pressure and acquire TS? Sounds like CR was looking to acquire TS for quite some time.
Exactly.

Ac pilots bought into the idea of ruthlessly competing and killing a heavily subsidized TS because you know, 2.5x draft, fast upgrades, and no reserve, and what do they get instead? The TS chickens coming home to roost.

This TS/AC merger is ironic because AC pilots thought they had the upper hand the entire time with Rouge. Many naively still think they do, it’s sad and amusing all at once. Paradoxical.

Calin should be hailed in the light he’s retiring. He is one hell of a business man.

Hopefully the lessons over the last 10 years can be learned and not repeated as a collective TS/AC group. I’m not hopeful but one can only dream.

Good luck!
So what if TS had an excellent Leisire market reputation? That was then and this is now.

Do you think AC is going to abandon Rouge crew just because they purchased TS?

Rouge crew are interwoven with our union contracts and those contracts emphasize Rouge employees come before 2nd party acquisitions.

As long as AC has the hulls and the routes they can brand it how they want. And they will. It's based on the pandemic now and in the future.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chooch918Heavy
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:40 am

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Chooch918Heavy »

Don’t worry Cappo. AC wouldn’t abandon your precious Rouge crews. They would however abandon the Rouge brand or possibly the TS brand depending on conditions set forth if the deal is consummated. Who know maybe keep both? You’d just hold the position your seniority holds. I wouldn’t attach myself to a brand too much.

I agree with you. They’ll just brand whichever makes most sense post-covid.
BTW What’s a 2nd party acquisition?
---------- ADS -----------
 
DouglasPenner
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:59 pm

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by DouglasPenner »

Write Justin Trudeau

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/c ... -1.5926728

At
Office of the Prime Minister
80 Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A2

With the writing on the back #SaveCanadianAviation

Tell your friends

Doug
---------- ADS -----------
 
Cappo1
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Cappo1 »

rudder wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:45 am
TheStig wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:58 am
I usually agree with your comments, but not the first two sentences. Both carriers provide leisure air travel, that's pretty comparable. Rouge has evolved significantly since it's launch; the A319's were to provide competition to stop WJ's unimpeded growth and the B767's with Transat over the Atlantic. Both were successful, WJ has completely changed their business model and AC is buying Transat.

Rouge does provide a J class product on the B767's equivalent to a narrow body J class seats that not what Transat offers on their A330's?
From a historical perspective, that argument could be made. But circa 2021, there is no such thing as a Rouge 767 and according to CR that will not change. Rouge fleet is 319/321 only. And if the TRZ acquisition is consummated, highly unlikely that a Rouge paint job will be added to any AC WB.

TS has offered a dedicated leisure product since 1986. They are good at it. Give credit where credit is due. Both Rouge and SWG were scrambling to match TS level of in flight service.
Do you really think the " dedicated leisure product" matters now? Rouge failed to appeal because it was poorly thought out and designed to fit the times of causal and Generation Z mentality.
It's new uncharted territory and anyone can come in when the time is right. If that time is ever right.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Zaibatsu
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:37 am

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Zaibatsu »

DouglasPenner wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:51 am Write Justin Trudeau

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/c ... -1.5926728

At
Office of the Prime Minister
80 Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A2

With the writing on the back #SaveCanadianAviation

Tell your friends

Doug
He already did. That’s what all those cheques and subsidies were about. They came with a letter.

“So, uh................. if you can cash this check and then forward it to your airline executive team, uhm, that would be great. We know that the airlines uh, have uhm your best interests at heart. I could have just uhm supported them, but I wanted that to be your choice um...... with these taxpayers dollars.

So um....please, donate your CEWS/CERB to your airline and I’m sure they will survive and uhhhhhhhh maybe even give you your job back.

Not moistly

Justin Trudeau.”
2C9CBE57-BF0B-475B-BA8D-817619DE26BF.jpeg
2C9CBE57-BF0B-475B-BA8D-817619DE26BF.jpeg (159.58 KiB) Viewed 6544 times
---------- ADS -----------
 
Raymond Hall
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Raymond Hall »

Air Canada agrees to $5.9-billion aid package, giving Ottawa equity stake in airline
Former Crown corporation renews as a Crown corporation…

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/busin ... 0662.html
---------- ADS -----------
 
simply_no_one
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:04 pm

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by simply_no_one »

Raymond Hall wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:09 am Air Canada agrees to $5.9-billion aid package, giving Ottawa equity stake in airline
Former Crown corporation renews as a Crown corporation…

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/busin ... 0662.html
Welcome to yesterday.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Raymond Hall
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Raymond Hall »

Air Canada CEO calls for easing travel restrictions after $1-billion loss

Air Canada lost $1.05-billion in the first three months of this year and is burning $14-million of cash each day, results that have newly-named chief executive Michael Rousseau lobbying the federal government to ease pandemic-related travel restrictions.

Revenues at the country’s largest airline were down by 80 per cent in the first quarter of 2021, at $729-million, compared to the same period a year earlier, when the COVID-19 pandemic began to curtail travel.

Montreal-based Air Canada said on Friday its operating loss more than doubled, year over year. The carrier’s net loss was $3.90 per share, well below the forecast average loss of $2.83 per share expected by the 14 analysts who cover the company. The airline spent $1.3-billion of cash in the quarter, and said it has $6.6-billion of liquidity.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... 1-billion/
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”