Hoping a FI can help me out understanding this.

I was taxiing out for a flight at my local airport and came upon a flight school plane holding short with traffic on long final. The pilot began one of those "circle checks" where the aircraft taxis in a circle I guess to look for traffic in the circuit. In doing so, the aircraft briefly crossed the hold short line and returned to the safe side to let the aircraft land.

It's not the first time I've seen this and I've got a couple of beefs. First, it's completely inexcusable to cross the hold line with traffic on final. Second, you won't always be flying a plane that's capable of doing a 360 on a 25-foot wide taxiway. Relying on this technique is bad training because you will most likely monitor the radio to build situational awareness later in your career. Third, you won't always be flying at uncontrolled airports and Tower will chew you a new one if you pull a stunt like that. I'm sure there are more...

So, I'm curious to know the philosophy behind the "circle check". Flight Instructors?...

I'm curious where it started as well, I never did or do it now, but I know a few who were told too. I could imagine in a small uncontrolled field with NORDO traffic sure, but that's all I can think of

I’ve never heard of this practice, and it sounds dumb to me, but “don’t do this in a small plane ‘cos you can’t do this in a big plane” is a totally bogus argument. You can and should do tonnes of things in a small plane that you can’t do in something big.

Third, you won't always be flying at uncontrolled airports and Tower will chew you a new one if you pull a stunt like that.

Any evidence that this has been done at a towered airport? Or are you just looking to rag on someone on the internet for stuff you’re making up?

How does it impact you what method someone else uses to look for airplanes? Good on them for taking the time and going to the trouble.

When I taxi up to a hold short line, I plan to position myself so I can see the approach path once I stop. I will remain at that position, and familiarize myself with the traffic, until I go to position for takeoff (whether cleared by tower, or my determination. I think taxiing a 360 on a taxiway is a bad idea, and would probably confuse anyone nearby.

photofly wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:25 am I’ve never heard of this practice, and it sounds dumb to me, but “don’t do this in a small plane ‘cos you can’t do this in a big plane” is a totally bogus argument. You can and should so tonnes of things in a small plane that you can’t do in something big.

Third, you won't always be flying at uncontrolled airports and Tower will chew you a new one if you pull a stunt like that.

Any evidence that this has been done at a towered airport? Or are you just looking to rag on someone on the internet for stuff you’re making up? Because if you’re bored, we could start on you...

No, I haven't seen it done at a controlled airport. I've also seen many successful departures at uncontrolled airports that didn't involve a circle check.

I'm thinking about your frame of reference as a pilot-in-training. You are taught to do a 360 before each takeoff so you think that's a good technique for traffic awareness. Which it might be. Then what happens when you fly somewhere you can't do a circle check?

I'm sure FIs have a reason for teaching this, I'm curious what they are.

That’s gotta be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard! Who in their right mind would think that is a good idea?

How long until the guy behind in line is just a little too close, and get turned around with no way to continue your 360*? Hahaha

I second people’s sentiments: one of the dumbest things I’ve heard of.

0000001 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:33 am I'm sure FIs have a reason for teaching this, I'm curious what they are.

No you aren’t. You’re trying to incite a bitch-fest.

I'm thinking about your frame of reference as a pilot-in-training. You are taught to do a 360 before each takeoff so you think that's a good technique for traffic awareness. Which it might be. Then what happens when you fly somewhere you can't do a circle check?

Well then I guess you don’t do one. Not very tricky, is it?

Mind your own students, and your own teaching, and quit bitching about other people’s. If you want to do something useful and positive, discuss better ways to look for traffic on final. Or is that too difficult or boring?

The pilot began one of those "circle checks" where the aircraft taxis in a circle I guess to look for traffic in the circuit.

Or maybe the instructor just wanted to show the student a better place to line up. Or look at a cute girl on the aerodrome boundary road. Or see where he dropped his pencil out of the window. You’ve frankly no idea what they were doing, and whether it was to look for traffic or something else, and you just admitted it. Probably all that’s happened is you have invented a whole new thing for people to complain about, and it’s a thing that actually didn’t exist until you wrote about it in your post. Congratulations.

Having been involved with three different FTUs at three different uncontrolled aerodromes in the last two years, this is the first time I've heard of this practice. If this is an actual thing that's being taught, it wasn't taught anywhere near me.

Judging by the description in OP's post, it sounds possible to me that the pilot simply started to take position for takeoff, saw the traffic on final a little late, and corrected his mistake.

TalkingPie wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:03 pm Having been involved with three different FTUs at three different uncontrolled aerodromes in the last two years, this is the first time I've heard of this practice. If this is an actual thing that's being taught, it wasn't taught anywhere near me.

Judging by the description in OP's post, it sounds possible to me that the pilot simply started to take position for takeoff, saw the traffic on final a little late, and corrected his mistake.

Same here. I've not heard of anyone teaching it. It does sound like a bad plan.

Well, until we actually hear from some who has taught this as a real technique for looking for traffic on final, can we please remember that this isn’t a “thing”?

photofly wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:26 pm Well, until we actually hear from some who has taught this as a real technique for looking for traffic on final, can we please remember that this isn’t a “thing”?

I’ll make sure to nip this imaginary practice in the bud at my FTU, promise.

.

Aviatard wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:54 pm
Flame retardant suit installed. Have at it.

LOL

Aviatard wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:54 pm This happens at Burlington a lot. The problem is there really isn’t a proper run up bay for 32 which is the most used runway. So most people position their aircraft turned 45 degrees right, or toward the runway so as to avoid blasting prop wash toward other aircraft that may be behind. Runway 32 is a right hand circuit so now you’re left with the traffic pattern behind you, making it hard to see. That’s why it’s not uncommon to see pilots making a turn around to check traffic. It’s not ideal but there you go.

Flame retardant suit installed. Have at it.

There are trees before the threshold of 32, and it's quite possible for an instructor sitting right seat, with a right hand pattern, with a new PPL in a high wing 172, to miss an aircraft coming in on a tight, shallow base to final turn. And it's a very busy pattern, and students take more time to line up, get comfortable, and go.

I don't blame those for the 360 turn.

But by all means, everyone who has never flown here, comment and create an issue where there isn't one.

Aviatard wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:54 pm This happens at Burlington a lot. The problem is there really isn’t a proper run up bay for 32 which is the most used runway. So most people position their aircraft turned 45 degrees right, or toward the runway so as to avoid blasting prop wash toward other aircraft that may be behind. Runway 32 is a right hand circuit so now you’re left with the traffic pattern behind you, making it hard to see. That’s why it’s not uncommon to see pilots making a turn around to check traffic. It’s not ideal but there you go.

Flame retardant suit installed. Have at it.

Is a Cessna they don’t create enough “prop wash” to blow a feather off a bowling ball.

fish4life wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:51 pm

Aviatard wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:54 pm This happens at Burlington a lot. The problem is there really isn’t a proper run up bay for 32 which is the most used runway. So most people position their aircraft turned 45 degrees right, or toward the runway so as to avoid blasting prop wash toward other aircraft that may be behind. Runway 32 is a right hand circuit so now you’re left with the traffic pattern behind you, making it hard to see. That’s why it’s not uncommon to see pilots making a turn around to check traffic. It’s not ideal but there you go.

Flame retardant suit installed. Have at it.

Is a Cessna they don’t create enough “prop wash” to blow a feather off a bowling ball.

fish4life wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:51 pm Is a Cessna they don’t create enough “prop wash” to blow a feather off a bowling ball.

You sit behind one on a gritty taxiway where the throttle is clumsily advanced, and have your face sandblasted, and then come and write that.

Better still, let’s try it on your car, or boat or motorcycle, and see if you appreciate the modifications to your paint job.

I think that’s the first time on this website I’ve ever seen one pilot chastise the practices of another for being too considerate. Ridiculous.

A) Just run up on while taxing
B) don’t give lots of power to get moving
Pretty simple really, it’s a paved airport not gravel.

After 5 + decades of flying, one sometimes thinks they have heard everything.
Then someone comes up with this.

I can’t really understand how this would work . With the reliability of radios today, it seems a bit unnecessary (yes, yes, nordos could be there....so could a freak invisible windshear.
This smacks of someone overthinking things a little bit ,And justifying by the Buzz word..”safety”. Absolutely safe to start turning around in front of the plane tucked up behind you....what could possibly go wrong?

Maybe the same person who thought up doing a prestall check before doing a turn!

"Back-tracking to line-up for departure on runway 34 for the left-hand circuit, any conflicting traffic please advise!" *does a little 360 look-out dance* (nailed it.. I am safety)

Turn this around for the funny man crowd.

Imagine this:

You're an instructor at an extremely busy uncontrolled field, a student with 5 hours is in the left seat. You're completing the run up in the small bay at the departure end, with your nose pointed at a 45 degree angle to the runway and your tail is pointed right at the base leg -- it's a right hand circuit only with trees blocking the view.

This position is to allow a second school aircraft, with another low time student, to point 90 degrees to you and do their run up in a confined area, without blasting aircraft # 3 on a very rough, narrow taxiway.

You can't see a thing from your position, obviously in # 1, also in # 2 aircraft. You're guessing by the radio traffic, 4-5 more planes are in the circuit. Many of these do a half mile final or so.

From the left seat a circle turn isn't required, if positioned correctly. From the right seat, different story.

You're telling me you announce departure, take position blind based on the radio, and go?

If not, instructors what you would do to ensure a clear look at the final AND base legs before taking the runway?

Packers are getting smoked on the TV. I'll wait.

Aviatard wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:54 pm This happens at Burlington a lot. The problem is there really isn’t a proper run up bay for 32 which is the most used runway. So most people position their aircraft turned 45 degrees right, or toward the runway so as to avoid blasting prop wash toward other aircraft that may be behind. Runway 32 is a right hand circuit so now you’re left with the traffic pattern behind you, making it hard to see. That’s why it’s not uncommon to see pilots making a turn around to check traffic. It’s not ideal but there you go.

Flame retardant suit installed. Have at it.

The event which prompted my post did indeed take place in Burlington. Interesting to hear how this might be employed because the instructor can't see at that particular airport.

One very embarrassing moment took place at one such airport where the local FTU was apparently teaching the "circle check". I was flying gliders on the infield of a mixed-use airport and the threshold of (and taxiway to) the active paved runway was directly in line with our landing area. We had a tow plane on final and out comes a flight school aircraft, announcing he's taxiing for position on the active runway. The timing would have worked for his departure, with tow plane landing after, except the student elected to do a "circle check" right in the landing path. Of course the tow plane did a go-around (with 200' rope attached... kinda sucks) and everyone at the gliding operation was cursing softly at the lack of SA demonstrated by the student pilot. I didn't have the heart to tell anyone but the student was actually my dad who was doing his PPL with the flight school at the time! When I asked him why he did the "circle check", he shrugged and explained he was just doing what his instructors had told him...

So for those who are doubting, it's a thing! Apparently in Southern Ontario anyways

I call bullshit. It’s not a thing.

Seems like a goofy idea, certainly not something I've ever seen or heard of out 'West mind you.

How about, as mentioned previously, when holding short you turn your aeroplane roughly 45° to get a better look at the approach path?