Just curious how many folks are going back to the airforce or considering it given the current civilian job market.

I tried but they weren't hiring pilots when I spoke with them. Considering applying for another trade though. I assume its easier if you are coming back and were previously qualified.

I've thought about it but don't have a degree, and the fact that although I have college diploma, ATPL, several thousand hours isn't good enough for them is a turn off. I know the training is different but the debate In my head would be to prove capability... anyways If they had direct entry or a modified program sure but I wouldn't go do a program like Seneca again or RMC.

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend RMC unless you're straight out of high school.
I'm pretty sure you can join as a pilot under an agreement to get your uni degree within 10 years of joining.
I know a guy who is fully wings qualified and has no uni degree, and didn't do seneca.

Or perhaps the Forces should not be the Employer Of Last Resort.

Just a thought...

A lot of things about it are better than civvy aviation, but there are many things that are worse too. I'm curious how people's priorities might have shifted because of covid.

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:50 pm Or perhaps the Forces should not be the Employer Of Last Resort.

Just a thought...

Considering your salary after flight training (to wings standard) is about $80k/yr I think it's fair to say its better than working the ramp throwing bags for minimum wage after dumping tens of thousands of dollars into flight training. On that note, you're paid while in training and every day in training counts toward an indexed, defined benefit pension; this includes time in University.

While it may be a last resort for you, it may be a first choice for others. The way I see it:

You can get a University degree with no student debt.
Top notch flying training with no student debt.
Opportunity to fly aircraft / missions that others never will (C-17, F-18, AW101, etc).
Getting paid while doing all those things and walking into an $80k/yr job and still not hitting the line operationally...

I would say the military is a great place to get a start in aviation in Canada. Once you've served your time you will have a resume that the top operators in Canada respect. The airlines are full of ex RCAF pilots. The pension helps them survive the 4 years of flat pay.

My 2 cents...

Pay Rates

For anybody considering joining, I was told by a recruiter that the seneca program has been suspended. So the only options left are DEO (if you have a degree) or RMC (aka 4 years of doing a degree followed by a couple more years of training).

Freeport_Flyer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:06 pmWhile it may be a last resort for you, it may be a first choice for others. The way I see it:

You can get a University degree with no student debt.
Top notch flying training with no student debt.
Opportunity to fly aircraft / missions that others never will (C-17, F-18, AW101, etc).
Getting paid while doing all those things and walking into an $80k/yr job and still not hitting the line operationally...

Don't forget:

Nonzero chance of being shot at while on the job.
Nonzero chance of being stationed in an extremely inhospitable place while on the job.

I suppose both are risks in any flying job, but i'd say they're a lot higher in the military.

Shinyjetsyndrome wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:37 am For anybody considering joining, I was told by a recruiter that the seneca program has been suspended. So the only options left are DEO (if you have a degree) or RMC (aka 4 years of doing a degree followed by a couple more years of training).

I was told the DEO pilot CFAT test score threshold is set so high these days that it is virtually impossible to get in for pretty much all applicants. Apparently I had a really high score and would qualify for pretty much anything else except for pilot.

Ash Ketchum wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:26 am

Shinyjetsyndrome wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:37 am For anybody considering joining, I was told by a recruiter that the seneca program has been suspended. So the only options left are DEO (if you have a degree) or RMC (aka 4 years of doing a degree followed by a couple more years of training).

I was told the DEO pilot CFAT test score threshold is set so high these days that it is virtually impossible to get in for pretty much all applicants. Apparently I had a really high score and would qualify for pretty much anything else except for pilot.

I think they also change it depending on need. I read online somewhere that one of the top 5 trades is a vehicle driver.. or maybe lead? Either way since our vehicle units are so small they dont have the spots because the demand is large, so they make the CFAT score required high.

Freeport_Flyer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:06 pm

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:50 pm Or perhaps the Forces should not be the Employer Of Last Resort.

Just a thought...

Considering your salary after flight training (to wings standard) is about $80k/yr I think it's fair to say its better than working the ramp throwing bags for minimum wage after dumping tens of thousands of dollars into flight training. On that note, you're paid while in training and every day in training counts toward an indexed, defined benefit pension; this includes time in University.

While it may be a last resort for you, it may be a first choice for others. The way I see it:

You can get a University degree with no student debt.
Top notch flying training with no student debt.
Opportunity to fly aircraft / missions that others never will (C-17, F-18, AW101, etc).
Getting paid while doing all those things and walking into an $80k/yr job and still not hitting the line operationally...

I would say the military is a great place to get a start in aviation in Canada. Once you've served your time you will have a resume that the top operators in Canada respect. The airlines are full of ex RCAF pilots. The pension helps them survive the 4 years of flat pay.

My 2 cents...

Pay Rates

I should clarify. In hindsight, that hastily typed out opinion is quite unclear. I agree with every point you just made and I think my opinion was not stated well.

The Forces are not the Employer Of Last Resort in Canada - not in my opinion. I considered the Air Force myself a lifetime ago (unfortunately my vision was not good enough and corrective laser surgery was not accepted at the time). Hell, I could use some part time work - the reserves aren't a bad idea perhaps.

What I meant to say is this: the Forces should not be your employer of last resort (not you, Freeport, You plural, in general). I honestly don't want anyone serving who's thought process was "aw @#$! it, I'll just join the army*". I don't think that serves them, the Forces, or the citizenry well. I want people serving whose thought was "damn, the army* looks like the place for me, I should talk to a recruiter!".

* or the Air Force, or the Navy

AirFrame wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:39 am
Nonzero chance of being shot at while on the job.
Nonzero chance of being stationed in an extremely inhospitable place while on the job.

I suppose both are risks in any flying job, but i'd say they're a lot higher in the military.

The irony of this statement is that I’ve got friends who flew up North that have been shot at more times than the friends flying in the Air Force!

flyingcanuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:05 pm

Ash Ketchum wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:26 am

Shinyjetsyndrome wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:37 am For anybody considering joining, I was told by a recruiter that the seneca program has been suspended. So the only options left are DEO (if you have a degree) or RMC (aka 4 years of doing a degree followed by a couple more years of training).

I was told the DEO pilot CFAT test score threshold is set so high these days that it is virtually impossible to get in for pretty much all applicants. Apparently I had a really high score and would qualify for pretty much anything else except for pilot.

I think they also change it depending on need. I read online somewhere that one of the top 5 trades is a vehicle driver.. or maybe lead? Either way since our vehicle units are so small they dont have the spots because the demand is large, so they make the CFAT score required high.

Absolutely, I think the score threshold for pilot is so high now because there are no current RCAF pilots leaving to the airlines and some airline guys who used to fly in the military are heading back. I'm sure it was easier to get in a year or two ago when the airlines were doing well. I have my eye on the naval warfare officer trade. Seems related to flying except you are in command of a ship or submarine and not a plane...

The culture in the navy, especially for MARS officers is very different from aircrew culture. Not saying you'll have a bad time, just do your research before you commit in that direction!

Well to all of you guys out there - you want to join - do! I joined the army reserves (because where I live the airforce wasn't an option) as a Weapons Tech. At 42 and 8 weeks pregnant (unbeknownst to me) with my 4th kid, I passed the FORCE and CFAT test with such high marks that I was offered just about any position. Naturally I wanted weapons. Ottawa then sent me a letter which is framed on my wall that I could not be accepted until my "chronic condition" was fixed. I'm comfortable with who I am!

That was 2019.

My husband is ex-airforce and released in 2015. He worked on the F18's in Cold Lake. Spent 12 years there. So, his thoughts are; 1. It's minimum 5 yr contract. 2. You do get paid while training. 3. There is a pension. 4. You can get your univ degree while you're in. 5. You're not guaranteed to go or not go anywhere. They put you where they need you. Period.

Things may have changed in the last 5 yrs. Here's a great link: DAOD 5002-6 Continuing Education Officer Training Plan on the gov. Site. Just Google it.

Also:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 8xUQyAv6pN


There are lots of options and lots of bases. And if a 42 yr old pregnant woman can do it in the army...(who is a pilot), I'm sure you guys will have no probs!

Ottawa then sent me a letter which is framed on my wall that I could not be accepted until my "chronic condition" was fixed.

what? wow

1957 called...

'97 Tercel wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:50 pm

Ottawa then sent me a letter which is framed on my wall that I could not be accepted until my "chronic condition" was fixed.

what? wow

1957 called...

yup

nutlord wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:20 pm A lot of things about it are better than civvy aviation, but there are many things that are worse too. I'm curious how people's priorities might have shifted because of covid.

Things that seem really cool in your 20's (pulling G, seeing all parts of the world, flying 150' AGL in the dark over the Arctic Ocean, maintaining small arms/NBC/fitness qualifications and doing lots of desk work) become less cool in your 30's and 40's. By the time you hit 50, they start to become real pains in the ass.

The Air Force is great for young, geographically mobile people who like fitness and are not overly attached to family. The further you depart from these parameters, the less fun the Air Force becomes

That's true, fortunately if you start young you can retire before you hit your 50s! I totally get that joining the military becomes increasingly less palatable as you get older though.It makes sense to me, why would you want to all of a sudden have to call someone 15 years younger than you "Sir" or "Ma'am" and start at the bottom again.

nutlord wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:01 pm why would you want to all of a sudden have to call someone 15 years younger than you "Sir" or "Ma'am" and start at the bottom again.

I imagine it would be the same as joining an airline after a flying for 25 years in the RCAF. Pulling gear for some 30 year old Captain sitting beside you, having to adjust to being a seniority number - where promotion and advancement is based entirely on when you entered the company, vice flying skill and experience. Having to call him/her “boss, skipper, etc”. Being in an environment where your previous experience means nothing. Huh, I guess that’s the strawman argument for airline to military pilot progression too, guess I better just suck it up and enjoy my polyester pants and clip on tie.

Best part of RCAF flying, my salary isn’t based on how many hours I fly per year.

SAR_YQQ wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:16 am

nutlord wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:01 pm why would you want to all of a sudden have to call someone 15 years younger than you "Sir" or "Ma'am" and start at the bottom again.

I imagine it would be the same as joining an airline after a flying for 25 years in the RCAF. Pulling gear for some 30 year old Captain sitting beside you, having to adjust to being a seniority number - where promotion and advancement is based entirely on when you entered the company, vice flying skill and experience. Having to call him/her “boss, skipper, etc”. Being in an environment where your previous experience means nothing. Huh, I guess that’s the strawman argument for airline to military pilot progression too, guess I better just suck it up and enjoy my polyester pants and clip on tie.

Best part of RCAF flying, my salary isn’t based on how many hours I fly per year.

And the flying is actually fun! West Coast SAR is my dream posting

tsgarp wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:35 pm

Things that seem really cool in your 20's (pulling G, seeing all parts of the world, flying 150' AGL in the dark over the Arctic Ocean, maintaining small arms/NBC/fitness qualifications and doing lots of desk work) become less cool in your 30's and 40's. By the time you hit 50, they start to become real pains in the ass.

The Air Force is great for young, geographically mobile people who like fitness and are not overly attached to family. The further you depart from these parameters, the less fun the Air Force becomes

This /\

The other reality is that the Military used to have age limits on new recruits so that all new entrants were relatively young. After someone challenged the policy at the human rights tribunal the Military was forced to enroll everyone who met the minimum recruit standards up to age 58.

The inconvenient fact is that there is a direct linear relationship between pass rate and age. Older recruits, particularly those 40 and older have a much lower success rate at becoming qualified in their occupation.

However for a young person I highly recommend that they consider a Military career. You will get the best training available, will be forced to stretch yourself in ways you never imagined and will have one of the best pensions plans anywhere. The pension benefit may not seem like a big deal when you are in your 20's but I guarantee you will be extremely grateful for it when you are in your 50's....

All this talk about pension got me thinking - I always wondered if aircrew who do the minimum years (not sure how many years that is) and then retire from the Forces in Canada start getting pension payments the day they leave, or do they first start getting pension payments after 65? I always wondered about that.
Thanx
Red

nutlord wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:25 am The culture in the navy, especially for MARS officers is very different from aircrew culture. Not saying you'll have a bad time, just do your research before you commit in that direction!

I went in as 32U (pilot) and came out 71D(MARS) in 1990.

I can tell you MARS officers were bred and trained to be asshats, polar opposite of flight crew.

The skills, training, mindset are great qualities later in life, certainly helped me career wise.