Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

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mbav8r
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by mbav8r »

a2btrail wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:00 pm Well said haironfire.

I'd like to extend a welcome to you and your colleagues both active and inactive to the team.

I am a laid off Jr. Jazz pilot of 2+ years of seniority. I haven't flown in just under year but looking forward to getting back online at some point in the future. I am happy with the results of the ratification.

It will be interesting to see if any Sr. pilots take the SSP.

Cheers,
First I would like to welcome the Sky pilots as well, I was pretty vocal about SR in the early days, when they joined ALPA, I began the internal process of letting my anger go. Don’t get me wrong, there were some senior Jazz pilots who left with a pension to go help undercut Jazz, they are mud to me but I’m sure they are gone now.
As for how many will take the package, I believe it will be close to 104. Why? Because the number of Jazz pilots protected from layoff until Sept 2022 remains unchanged, 635+41 Jazz and 123 Sky of which the most junior is approximately the same seniority of the most junior of the 104 recalls.
The union put out a call for those who would be interested in an early out package, so my guess is the number who expressed interest was about 104.
It appears to be a good deal, I did find it interesting though, the package specified age but not tenure. In theory, if you joined Jazz a year ago and you are 50-55, you can have a parting gift of 400,000. Of course that may be clarified in the details and simply missed when they put out the coles notes.
Imagine, you are 50 and on CEWS, you opt for the buyout and look for a new job, wonder if any would?
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Sharklasers
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by Sharklasers »

mbav8r wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:22 am
a2btrail wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:00 pm Well said haironfire.

I'd like to extend a welcome to you and your colleagues both active and inactive to the team.

I am a laid off Jr. Jazz pilot of 2+ years of seniority. I haven't flown in just under year but looking forward to getting back online at some point in the future. I am happy with the results of the ratification.

It will be interesting to see if any Sr. pilots take the SSP.

Cheers,
First I would like to welcome the Sky pilots as well, I was pretty vocal about SR in the early days, when they joined ALPA, I began the internal process of letting my anger go. Don’t get me wrong, there were some senior Jazz pilots who left with a pension to go help undercut Jazz, they are mud to me but I’m sure they are gone now.
As for how many will take the package, I believe it will be close to 104. Why? Because the number of Jazz pilots protected from layoff until Sept 2022 remains unchanged, 635+41 Jazz and 123 Sky of which the most junior is approximately the same seniority of the most junior of the 104 recalls.
The union put out a call for those who would be interested in an early out package, so my guess is the number who expressed interest was about 104.
It appears to be a good deal, I did find it interesting though, the package specified age but not tenure. In theory, if you joined Jazz a year ago and you are 50-55, you can have a parting gift of 400,000. Of course that may be clarified in the details and simply missed when they put out the coles notes.
Imagine, you are 50 and on CEWS, you opt for the buyout and look for a new job, wonder if any would?

The 104 number isnt related to the ERP.
The last of the 104 pilots will be just junior to the last of the 123 sky pilots needed to run the summer operation.
Without recalling 104 pilots you would have approximately 43 Sky pilots on property who would be junior to the last Jazz man left standing.
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Kosiw
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by Kosiw »

From the information previously posted.

"This was not a merger by ALPA policy or law. Notwithstanding, several principles and methodologies in ALPA policy and case law for the creation of Integrated Seniority Lists were modeled in order to ensure fairness and equity and eliminate any possibility of reversal by an administrative tribunal or court. ISLs alone cannot be subject to member ratification, especially when the prevailing party is larger or has more control. Also, the terms of LOU 49 and MOS-6 did not affect the pay, working conditions, retirement, or career security of member Pilots in a negative manner (only positive or voluntary changes). Additionally, the MEC was privy to confidential material and non-public information related to the CPA amendments that could not be shared with the Pilot group at large. As a result, Pilots would have to vote on incomplete information. We will share this information with you as soon as we are able. Finally, a complete roadshow, open house, information campaign, and voting window was not possible due to the pandemic and timelines required to stand-up the E175 operation for the summer. In order to ensure adequate staffing for the summer, if an agreement had not been finalized this weekend, the integration would need to be delayed until this fall.
The MEC was unwilling to risk a delay and possibly lose the opportunity to absorb the E175 flying"

It would appear that AC's decision to shut down SKV with such short notice, put the union at a disadvantage in terms of time and fear of losing the work. I can see how AC manipulated the situation to get the outcome they wanted asap, what if the union had said no and waited to organaize a vote?
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haironfire
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by haironfire »

It would appear that AC's decision to shut down SKV with such short notice, put the union at a disadvantage in terms of time and fear of losing the work. I can see how AC manipulated the situation to get the outcome they wanted asap, what if the union had said no and waited to organaize a vote?

I must say we should have seen this coming. This chess move was setup about 12 years ago. How do we get Chorus by the ba!!s and get a Long Term Contract at a cheaper price? And thus Sky Regional was no longer needed. Ok boys, you get the planes back with conditions, the pilots come as well.

Checkmate.
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by KenoraPilot »

Welcome all Sky Regional Pilots coming to Jazz.
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haironfire
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by haironfire »

As a Sky Guy I am excited about the new prospects, and thank you to those welcoming us. Some will sacrifice, including myself, but in the long run benefit I believe.

This is just a business move on Air Canada's part so they will be stronger on the other side of the pandemic. We should focus on the future and look at this as a good thing. It sucks right now, but we will ALL have brighter futures on the other side.

Business is all about leverage to get a better price. This is a play Air Canada made to their benefit and we make the move with them.
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Ash Ketchum
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by Ash Ketchum »

I think this is a decent deal for both Sky and Jazz. As an inactive Jazz pilot, I am happy for my friends at Sky who seem to have gotten a fair deal. For the classic dash Jazz pilots being recalled, I wonder if they will all be retrained for the Q or RJ.
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by Inverted2 »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:37 am I think this is a decent deal for both Sky and Jazz. As an inactive Jazz pilot, I am happy for my friends at Sky who seem to have gotten a fair deal. For the classic dash Jazz pilots being recalled, I wonder if they will all be retrained for the Q or RJ.
Can bid either depending on what their seniority is. Some might want to go on the Q400 because the training is a lot shorter vs the RJ which is a solid 2 months or a bit longer. It’ll be tough for some who have been on the Dash-8 for 30+ years.
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haironfire
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by haironfire »

Pretend you don't see this, because sadly I have changed my mind about saying something. Nothing against the previous post of course, just that I have decided that I should leave business decisions to business people.

I will just fly the planes, thank you very much.

Sorry, I tried to delete the post but couldn't figure it out.
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Ash Ketchum
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by Ash Ketchum »

Sharklasers wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:53 am
mbav8r wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:22 am
a2btrail wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:00 pm Well said haironfire.

I'd like to extend a welcome to you and your colleagues both active and inactive to the team.

I am a laid off Jr. Jazz pilot of 2+ years of seniority. I haven't flown in just under year but looking forward to getting back online at some point in the future. I am happy with the results of the ratification.

It will be interesting to see if any Sr. pilots take the SSP.

Cheers,
First I would like to welcome the Sky pilots as well, I was pretty vocal about SR in the early days, when they joined ALPA, I began the internal process of letting my anger go. Don’t get me wrong, there were some senior Jazz pilots who left with a pension to go help undercut Jazz, they are mud to me but I’m sure they are gone now.
As for how many will take the package, I believe it will be close to 104. Why? Because the number of Jazz pilots protected from layoff until Sept 2022 remains unchanged, 635+41 Jazz and 123 Sky of which the most junior is approximately the same seniority of the most junior of the 104 recalls.
The union put out a call for those who would be interested in an early out package, so my guess is the number who expressed interest was about 104.
It appears to be a good deal, I did find it interesting though, the package specified age but not tenure. In theory, if you joined Jazz a year ago and you are 50-55, you can have a parting gift of 400,000. Of course that may be clarified in the details and simply missed when they put out the coles notes.
Imagine, you are 50 and on CEWS, you opt for the buyout and look for a new job, wonder if any would?

The 104 number isnt related to the ERP.
The last of the 104 pilots will be just junior to the last of the 123 sky pilots needed to run the summer operation.
Without recalling 104 pilots you would have approximately 43 Sky pilots on property who would be junior to the last Jazz man left standing.
So I take it the 104 recalled jazz pilots aren't needed for operational growth reasons? There will be lots of pilots sitting on reserve and not flying much if this is the case unless things really pick up this summer.
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throwaway123
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by throwaway123 »

At least they're getting paid, pension paid, benefits paid etc.
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haironfire
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by haironfire »

Good news on BNN for Chorus. Money raised and aircraft purchases in the works.

We look forward to better times.
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Splash
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by Splash »

haironfire wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:01 am Good news on BNN for Chorus. Money raised and aircraft purchases in the works.

We look forward to better times.
A link to the article:

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/chorus-avia ... -1.1578011
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simply_no_one
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by simply_no_one »

haironfire wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:01 am Good news on BNN for Chorus. Money raised and aircraft purchases in the works.

We look forward to better times.
130 million is pretty minimal in the grand scheme.

My guess is the money is for the leasing side of the business, and nothing to do with Jazz. Q400s at Voyageur etc.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by rudder »

simply_no_one wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 pm
130 million is pretty minimal in the grand scheme.

My guess is the money is for the leasing side of the business, and nothing to do with Jazz. Q400s at Voyageur etc.
The leasing side of the business (CAC) makes lots of money leasing aircraft to AC for use in the CPA (operated by Jazz).

I don’t see anything happening in the near term but there may be opportunities for CAC/AC in the post 2024 timeframe.
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haironfire
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by haironfire »

alright, the silence is killing me......;?

I will allow some people to figure out who I am.

When C3 when shit's up I was caught off guard. I swore I would never let this happen again, so I have been tracking the industry. Skyservice I saw coming and made the right move at the right time.

Same with Bombardier.

Now........ COVID is a threat.

We now know the fate of Sky Regional and Jazz. At least we know, and we deal.

But what about the rest of our industry? Who is under major threats? There will be a major correction very soon, or at least over the next few years.

Air Transat, Flair, Swoop. They are all sniffing each other's butts for business. And Sunwing. Onex. Sniffing.

So we should be happy that we know our place and can feel comfortable. There are companies willing to invest in Chorus right now, 130M, and this will only be the beginning. Bright futures ahead.

I only said this to introduce some discussion.

I have said most of the stuff on this forum is BS, but there is a lot of really good stuff as well. I could be delivering BS as well, but I welcome the smart people to educate us all.
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Hangry
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by Hangry »

What?
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haironfire
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by haironfire »

And Air Canada is using this pandemic to their advantage, like only a true business company should.

They were in the driver's seat for CPA with Jazz.

And currently in the driver's seat vs. Transat AND Liberal Government.

The smart people at Air Canada go home and sleep well and dream all the things we only wish for.
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haironfire
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by haironfire »

I went to Sky Regional because I had a lot of flying experience, resulting in Direct Entry Captian, I knew what airplane type I was going to fly, and what base I was going to be located.

Therefore I made my decision Sky Regional or Jazz. Personally, I think before you leave a previous job and give notification you should know what you are giving up to the benefit of what you are getting moving foreward. In this regard, Jazz, and Air Canada, SUCKS THE BIG ONE!!!! and anyone that had any leverage over their own life situation it was a no-brainer. And thus they were last on the list.

Now I will pay the price. BUT! I am happy with my decision.

Moving forward, let the chips fall and make decisions.

Personally, I believe the future for Chorus is very bright. The company will do very well. Will we as pilots do as well? Wait and see how the end of this pandemic plays out. That is all I am saying as a pilot trying to figure out the way as all the other chips fall around us.
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Last edited by haironfire on Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zaibatsu
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Re: Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

Post by Zaibatsu »

I don’t think any of what you said was a surprise to anyone. At least not anyone who’s done their homework or been in the industry any length of time.

Leisure operators are always the hardest hit by circumstances. Whether they be due to external factors like C3 or internal factors like Skyservice or Wardair. You’re here for a good time, not a long time. Only AT defied expectations until now. It’s all up to what the parent company is willing to throw at it in an era where third party lift is becoming cheaper by the day.

And Air Canada can’t fail. It’s too big to fail. If it failed completely it would be nationalized immediately. Even though it should fail.

CPA carriers have always been a revolving door. Remember Air BC? Time Air? Air Ontario? Air Nova? They come and go. Some go bankrupt. Some get bought by the parent. Some merge. Some become independent. Roll of the dice. Chorus aviation is now going into unprecedented exclusivity in a very dynamic time. The next 24 months will be interesting to see what happens. Will it remain the only CPA carrier or will AC seek to diversify as travel recovers? Ask some old regional alumnus who’ve been out of the game for 20 years what they think.

Then there’s the OTAC airlines. They are hungry and without a gold plated guarantee from the government they will be aggressive. Westjet is in a situation very similar to CP, PW, CDN. It’s a pretender to the throne. It has been particularly hard hit by the pandemic and struggled before it with expansion and poor loads. Maybe, it will scale back, rationalize, or divest and leave it to its fate. Or take advantage of the dynamic market and push for expansion. Flair is trying to aggressively expand by using the same low cost scheme Westjet used in its early days. Lots of smaller airlines like Pivot and whatnot trying to get in on the action and expand as services are cut.

But even as restrictions end not everyone is going to want to travel. They are still scared and recovering from the worst recession in our lifetime, and facing a skyrocketing cost of living. They are still smarting from their lost fares and Air Canada features prominently of the large airlines that has steadfastly refused to issue refunds. And that means Air Canada Express, too.

So given a choice between Air Canada and any other airline, which do you think they will choose?

Buckle up. Even for safe seats the bumpy ride isn’t over yet.
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