ACPA MEC

[rudder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tldGgGFe194

[alkaseltzer]

The Constitution would be fixed under ALPA for one.

AC Pilots would have the largest say in Canada regarding Government governmental lobbying efforts for two.

We would have access to a larger pool of resources and supports for three.

It can go on and on... but going back to the first one... We were recommended by outside conservative governance experts 2 paths:

-properly fixing ACPA governance and constitution,
-joining a larger organization with its shit together.

We did neither. And what we have does not work.

ACPA has no governance oversight, no sober second thoughts, and power and information is completely centralized among a few.

We do surveys where the membership overwhelmingly said they want to hear from ALPA, but that guy quietly closed down.

We do surveys that members overwhelmingly said they didn't want the contract opened up in the recent reopener under the guidelines of the Framework MOA, and what do we get? Concessionary permanent MOAs, followed by entire rewrites in our contract including sections on scope, scheduling, reserve, and more.

We have an MEC Chair that ran on transparency and recorded votes that flip flopped.

I think it's funny that the governance committee was all fired and replaced with a new chair that lost the last time he stood for election among the membership, and members that are all MEC members.

We still have group of 27 members chairing important committees FFS.

It's incestuous.

Take a look at the transparency and information and preparation of the membership by the Delta and United MECs. There are Youtubes... watch them, and then come tell me that isn't what you'd like from your association.

If you're still looking in and comparing your wage to a regional or package tour provider or only recently unionized #2 LCC airline with a FIRST contract and thinking you're great, then you're actually delusional. Look instead at your contract 20 years ago. Then wonder how it is we are here today so much worse off and still going backwards.

So why does Project Reroute tout a great relationship with the management and ACPA...what is the point of it? Is it to ACPA-wash the furloughs? Why should furloughs even pay attention to that webinar and trust a word that is being said?

Non-response, just change the subject because it's all true.

I just can't understand why some of you guys are so happy to settle and tow the company line while we fall further and further behind every year.

As Fanblade pointed out, we horse trade and then the company sells the horse we got every time.

Capture EMJ with low rates, trade other wages to raise the EMJ rates and company gets rid of the EMJs.

Capture 319/767 leisure flying with low rates and working conditions, spend 10 years of bargaining capital improving them and company cans the 767s and cuts 319/320/321 LCC flying drastically. Too expensive now.

Capture 767 cargo flying with low rates and substandard guarantee despite having 2x 767 wawcon already in our contract. Just watch what happens when these guys are sitting in hotels collecting the lowest guarantee and ACPA devices they have to do something by horse trading away a chunk of another part of our contract.

Remember too... the fear rumours around the F767 vote?

"If we don't do it the work will go to Transat or worse, JAZZ!"
"If we don't do it the airplanes will be sold to Cargojet and they'll get the jobs."
"If we don't do it there might be another upstart with our old airplanes that will compete with us."
"If we don't take a pay cut the company will never do cargo again."

The crazy thing with this "capture the flying" mentality is that it's already ours. Article 1 full stop.

The company makes its own business cases on if they want this type or that type, this flying out that flying, it's all done and then they come to us for the cherry on top.

Look how fast the cargo conversions were announced after our MOA vote... vote closed Friday, conversion contacts announced Monday. Remember it was only so they could "explore the opportunity" and the "10% wage concessions" was their "line in the sand" to "make the operation more profitable."

No shit 10% off of our wage will make it more profitable. 10% off pilot wages doesn't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to operating an airline though, particularly in what is currently and forecast to be the most profitable sector in it. ie. Logistics and cargo are where smart money is going right now.

Did the company go to the IAMAW guys for discounts to bring in the extra cargo ground handlers that will be needed? Or the extra engineers that will be needed? Did they go to the dispatchers? The managers? Just us because "Pilots always vote yes." We're short sighted and playing tic-tac-toe.

The VPFO has his kid at the Sault. The next guy, RG, has his son on furlough. ACPA chair has his son on furlough. Other management are in the same boat.

How does a parent tell their child, let alone 591 furloughed pilots, that they won’t earn as much as them?

Project Reroute webinar question.

[RVR6000]

So why does Project Reroute tout a great relationship with the management and ACPA...what is the point of it? Is it to ACPA-wash the furloughs? Why should furloughs even pay attention to that webinar and trust a word that is being said?

Non-response, just change the subject because it's all true.

I just can't understand why some of you guys are so happy to settle and tow the company line while we fall further and further behind every year.

As Fanblade pointed out, we horse trade and then the company sells the horse we got every time.

Capture EMJ with low rates, trade other wages to raise the EMJ rates and company gets rid of the EMJs.

Capture 319/767 leisure flying with low rates and working conditions, spend 10 years of bargaining capital improving them and company cans the 767s and cuts 319/320/321 LCC flying drastically. Too expensive now.

Capture 767 cargo flying with low rates and substandard guarantee despite having 2x 767 wawcon already in our contract. Just watch what happens when these guys are sitting in hotels collecting the lowest guarantee and ACPA devices they have to do something by horse trading away a chunk of another part of our contract.

Remember too... the fear rumours around the F767 vote?

"If we don't do it the work will go to Transat or worse, JAZZ!"
"If we don't do it the airplanes will be sold to Cargojet and they'll get the jobs."
"If we don't do it there might be another upstart with our old airplanes that will compete with us."
"If we don't take a pay cut the company will never do cargo again."

The crazy thing with this "capture the flying" mentality is that it's already ours. Article 1 full stop.

The company makes its own business cases on if they want this type or that type, this flying out that flying, it's all done and then they come to us for the cherry on top.

Look how fast the cargo conversions were announced after our MOA vote... vote closed Friday, conversion contacts announced Monday. Remember it was only so they could "explore the opportunity" and the "10% wage concessions" was their "line in the sand" to "make the operation more profitable."

No shit 10% off of our wage will make it more profitable. 10% off pilot wages doesn't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to operating an airline though, particularly in what is currently and forecast to be the most profitable sector in it. ie. Logistics and cargo are where smart money is going right now.

Did the company go to the IAMAW guys for discounts to bring in the extra cargo ground handlers that will be needed? Or the extra engineers that will be needed? Did they go to the dispatchers? The managers? Just us because "Pilots always vote yes." We're short sighted and playing tic-tac-toe.

The VPFO has his kid at the Sault. The next guy, RG, has his son on furlough. ACPA chair has his son on furlough. Other management are in the same boat.

How does a parent tell their child, let alone 591 furloughed pilots, that they won’t earn as much as them?

Project Reroute webinar question.

It’s not the VPFO or RG that’s playing us, it’s the C-suite in YUL that we are bargaining against. Time and time again, pattern of permanent losses for temporary gains. We are the only suckers that fall for this crap.

Rest a sure the flights attendants, dispatchers, managers all have wages that can be compared against Delta, United and American. You can’t say the same about AC pilots.

Why doesn’t the C-suite reference its pay against Transat/Sunwing/Westjet and not Delta/American/United.

[altiplano]

Right on RVR.

And in response to you alkaseltzer, all you point out is that the fact the former VP FOPs, the current VP FOPs, and probably the future VP FOPs sons all work here is that nepotism and cronyism are rampant. Time for a reset for our representation.

[160tonoaha]

Working for Ac is an embarrassment, and the problem is you don’t realize it until you’re a few years in.

The first step towards fixing it are these dialogues, and acceptance that the pilot group are flawed in the way we approach our position as leaders in the industry, then work on fixing that and leading by example, starting by getting the priorities straight as a collective group.

The me me me model that has become an Air Canada career, I’m afraid is simply a reflection of our values as a country these days.

The alkaseltzers are concerned about his crew being vaccinated because he selfishly thinks that’s the right answer. Then someone opposite to him just picks up all the OT to make up for lost time while his mates are on furlough.

There’s no unity at AC, everyone is in it for themselves. I mean checkout the transat thread and it’s evident where the reputation of ac pilots come from, although there are some great guys on property too. Not to say there wasn’t anyone from blue commenting. But as leaders, ac pilots ought to truly set the example if someone is acting out of line in our industry, not make it worse. Right?

Apathy is Canada’s weakness, including Air Canada pilots.

Hope covid showed our true colours in this profession, and that we actually realize no one is more or less superior to another, then work on fixing the industry collectively.

The moment you see a superiority complex shine from one group, it falls apart. As ac pilots, a lot of back tracking from being regarded and believed as sky gods needs to occur for the seat to be welcome at Alpa. This is non negotiable from what I understand.

I hope a good group gets chosen to navigate all of us out of this collective mess industry wide.

[Mrbobmarly111]

What you just said is embarrassing. What a joke.... its a great company to work for. My buddy who has less than 3 years at the company just purchased his first house. Somehow he still has a job because of how few have been Furloughed (comparable to other carriers) and in a year he will be making near 100000 once off flat pay as a FO!. Plus prior to covid because of his seniority he had 16+ days off a month. So take your it sucks to work at AC attitude and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Or get a psychologist to help you with your doom and gloom attitude and try seeing some positives in live. Jesus i dont know how people like you made it through the selection process at AC. My advice to you is get a hobbie!

[PostmasterGeneral]

What you just said is embarrassing. What a joke.... its a great company to work for. My buddy who has less than 3 years at the company just purchased his first house. Somehow he still has a job because of how few have been Furloughed (comparable to other carriers) and in a year he will be making near 100000 once off flat pay as a FO!. Plus prior to covid because of his seniority he had 16+ days off a month. So take your it sucks to work at AC attitude and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Or get a psychologist to help you with your doom and gloom attitude and try seeing some positives in live. Jesus i dont know how people like you made it through the selection process at AC. My advice to you is get a hobbie!

Your statement lost all credibility at the "once he's off flat pay" part

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

If it makes you feel any better, I'm going to go back to a Q job that pays the same as my stay at home vaccine booking job.

[Rooster69]

Right on RVR.

And in response to you alkaseltzer, all you point out is that the fact the former VP FOPs, the current VP FOPs, and probably the future VP FOPs sons all work here is that nepotism and cronyism are rampant. Time for a reset for our representation.

Where would you have their kids work? Anywhere but AC?

[Mrbobmarly111]

What you just said is embarrassing. What a joke.... its a great company to work for. My buddy who has less than 3 years at the company just purchased his first house. Somehow he still has a job because of how few have been Furloughed (comparable to other carriers) and in a year he will be making near 100000 once off flat pay as a FO!. Plus prior to covid because of his seniority he had 16+ days off a month. So take your it sucks to work at AC attitude and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Or get a psychologist to help you with your doom and gloom attitude and try seeing some positives in live. Jesus i dont know how people like you made it through the selection process at AC. My advice to you is get a hobbie!

Your statement lost all credibility at the "once he's off flat pay" part

Even on flat pay he makes more than a 10 year Westjet mainline FO. might i suggest fishing? Or model ship building

[yycflyguy]

What you just said is embarrassing. What a joke.... its a great company to work for. My buddy who has less than 3 years at the company just purchased his first house. Somehow he still has a job because of how few have been Furloughed (comparable to other carriers) and in a year he will be making near 100000 once off flat pay as a FO!. Plus prior to covid because of his seniority he had 16+ days off a month. So take your it sucks to work at AC attitude and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Or get a psychologist to help you with your doom and gloom attitude and try seeing some positives in live. Jesus i dont know how people like you made it through the selection process at AC. My advice to you is get a hobbie!

Your statement lost all credibility at the "once he's off flat pay" part

Even on flat pay he makes more than a 10 year Westjet mainline FO. might i suggest fishing? Or model ship building

You are spreading some serious misinformation. 10 year Westjet FO $128/hr. AC year $56k/year rising to $80 in year 4 of flat.

Did your "buddy" buy in the GTA? Did your buddy have access to wife's or family money?

We could have saved around 140 pilot jobs with the $8 million that management is keeping for themselves (Don't worry, the Senior Execs will make sure they get their $2 million - another 35 pilot jobs). We are now flying the B767 as a freighter. We've had that plane since the 80s. Yet, ACPA/AC found a way to justify taking a 10% pay hit for a plane that we've always worked to destinations we've always served.

Take a look around you. Something like 35 FEDEX guys broke $1,000,000USD during COVID. UPS guys? Not far behind. Meanwhile we cross the Atlantic every night with only 2 pilots while every US carrier has 3.

It's guys like you that keep driving our contract into the mud... but the sad part is - YOU'RE PROBABLY ON ACPA NEGOTIATIONS

[Mrbobmarly111]

You guys are constantly comparing yourself to American carriers. Its udder nonsense. You know they are hiring down there and its only about $6000 to get an FAA ATP conversion. Get it done and leave this company with your toxic attitude. And yes it was in the GTA and no family money but a partner that works too. News flash 1st year FO makes the median combined income in Canada. I cant imagine how you sleep at night comparing yourself to everyone else but it must be a sad existence.

And ACPA has been doing a good job. First the pilots vote on the contracts not just the 20 or so ACPA reps. And again if you were sitting here with 2.5 years at the company youd still have a job right now doing almost nothing. The 737 peeps weren't flying for freaking 3 years almost!!!! 3 years. Ha if this was a ALPA company they would've sold their souls by now. Heck of this was a ALPA company we would all be working at DQ serving sundaes.

Anyways good luck Hopefully youre flying again soon. Come back here in 10 years when youre left seat on the 737 and making near 300 000 a year with your boat and house. Then tell me if you feel the same way.

Ps. Maybe fishing isn't right for you. With all the noise you make you'd definitely scare the fish away.

[Mrbobmarly111]

.

[redbusdriver]

well said bob

[BTD]

You guys are constantly comparing yourself to American carriers. Its udder nonsense. You know they are hiring down there and its only about $6000 to get an FAA ATP conversion. Get it done and leave this company with your toxic attitude. And yes it was in the GTA and no family money but a partner that works too. News flash 1st year FO makes the median combined income in Canada. I cant imagine how you sleep at night comparing yourself to everyone else but it must be a sad existence.

And ACPA has been doing a good job. First the pilots vote on the contracts not just the 20 or so ACPA reps. And again if you were sitting here with 2.5 years at the company youd still have a job right now doing almost nothing. The 737 peeps weren't flying for freaking 3 years almost!!!! 3 years. Ha if this was a ALPA company they would've sold their souls by now. Heck of this was a ALPA company we would all be working at DQ serving sundaes.

Anyways good luck Hopefully youre flying again soon. Come back here in 10 years when youre left seat on the 737 and making near 300 000 a year with your boat and house. Then tell me if you feel the same way.

Ps. Maybe fishing isn't right for you. With all the noise you make you'd definitely scare the fish away.

Just a little off on everything you have said. I love my job at AC and it is the best gig in Canada as far as I’m concerned, but we should be striving to improve. However, the overall trend has been downwards in wawcon in the 10 yrs I’ve have been here. The union has not done us well in the majority of negotiating circumstances. I previously posted the two newsletters where it went totally off the rails for me.

But as to your post. Conversion to FAA ATPL is not the main roadblock preventing people from going to the US. The ability to legally obtain work there is. So people can’t just “leave”.

A first year FO. does not make the median combined income in Canada. At the current hourly rate a year 1 FO during normal times could expect to make $62000 BEFORE tax dollars. The median AFTER tax income for family’s and individuals in Canada is $62900. Which would only get higher if you remove the individual portion. The tax there will make a big difference.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily- ... 3a-eng.htm

I was left seat on the 737 at near year 10 and did not make almost $300 000. And I flew it for 14 months as a training captain before the grounding. As for the grounding itself, the company had to do something regarding the 400 of us on the aircraft. The contract required it. They couldn’t have just laid us off. And I would have far rather been allowed to bid off the aircraft and go be productive on another fleet, it alas they didn’t know what was going to happen, and I understand that. I later took a junior reduction and left the fleet to get back to flying because I love the job.

Come back here in 10 years when youre left seat on the 737 and making near 300 000 a year with your boat and house. Then tell me if you feel the same way.

I am the guy you describe in the above statement, almost exactly, and I share many of that posters perspectives.

You can love your job, and be proud of the company you work for and still ask for better from those directing your negotiating representatives. And also recognize despite how good it is, it isn’t all sunshine and lollipops and that we have truly been letdown in many regards.

Edited to add. The 737 was grounded for just shy of 2 years. Not 3.

[yycflyguy]

You guys are constantly comparing yourself to American carriers. Its udder nonsense. You know they are hiring down there and its only about $6000 to get an FAA ATP conversion. Get it done and leave this company with your toxic attitude. And yes it was in the GTA and no family money but a partner that works too. News flash 1st year FO makes the median combined income in Canada. I cant imagine how you sleep at night comparing yourself to everyone else but it must be a sad existence.

And ACPA has been doing a good job. First the pilots vote on the contracts not just the 20 or so ACPA reps. And again if you were sitting here with 2.5 years at the company youd still have a job right now doing almost nothing. The 737 peeps weren't flying for freaking 3 years almost!!!! 3 years. Ha if this was a ALPA company they would've sold their souls by now. Heck of this was a ALPA company we would all be working at DQ serving sundaes.

Anyways good luck Hopefully youre flying again soon. Come back here in 10 years when youre left seat on the 737 and making near 300 000 a year with your boat and house. Then tell me if you feel the same way.

Ps. Maybe fishing isn't right for you. With all the noise you make you'd definitely scare the fish away.

You truly have no concept of how life works. Your posts are so full of inaccuracies, misunderstandings and naivety - I don’t even know where to start.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

You truly have no concept of how life works. Your posts are so full of inaccuracies, misunderstandings and nativity - I don’t even know where to start.

Glad to hear that you and the angry others have the line on the truth and facts

[RippleRock]

Go back to your golf game and 80 hours Lt. Perhaps you're too busy picking up VO like your MEC buddies.

Few here are "angry", just terribly disappointed with our leadership and the direction they have chosen on our behalf.

Jeeezuz.

[RippleRock]

You guys are constantly comparing yourself to American carriers. Its udder nonsense. You know they are hiring down there and its only about $6000 to get an FAA ATP conversion. Get it done and leave this company with your toxic attitude. And yes it was in the GTA and no family money but a partner that works too. News flash 1st year FO makes the median combined income in Canada. I cant imagine how you sleep at night comparing yourself to everyone else but it must be a sad existence.

And ACPA has been doing a good job. First the pilots vote on the contracts not just the 20 or so ACPA reps. And again if you were sitting here with 2.5 years at the company youd still have a job right now doing almost nothing. The 737 peeps weren't flying for freaking 3 years almost!!!! 3 years. Ha if this was a ALPA company they would've sold their souls by now. Heck of this was a ALPA company we would all be working at DQ serving sundaes.

Anyways good luck Hopefully youre flying again soon. Come back here in 10 years when youre left seat on the 737 and making near 300 000 a year with your boat and house. Then tell me if you feel the same way.

Ps. Maybe fishing isn't right for you. With all the noise you make you'd definitely scare the fish away.

You truly have no concept of how life works. Your posts are so full of inaccuracies, misunderstandings and naivety - I don’t even know where to start.

I think you're going to have to look at where these guys are on the list, and what positions they are choosing. The result of FOS (that was never contended...thanks for the advice Jalmer Johnston) was that our seniority list was "upended" creating and internal divide that will never, ever be repaired.

These guys are reaping the benefits of that "seniority upending", and can not be reasoned with. That seniority inversion and the inherent "I want more" attitude of those benefiting from it is a an internal contagious bacterial disease will continue to plague us and leave us on opposite pages.

Moving forward as a unified body will be nearly impossible. Best to ignore them.

[a220hereicome]

I think you're going to have to look at where these guys are on the list, and what positions they are choosing. The result of FOS (that was never contended...thanks for the advice Jalmer Johnston) was that our seniority list was "upended" creating and internal divide that will never, ever be repaired.

These guys are reaping the benefits of that "seniority upending", and can not be reasoned with. That seniority inversion and the inherent "I want more" attitude of those benefiting from it is a an internal contagious bacterial disease will continue to plague us and leave us on opposite pages.

Moving forward as a unified body will be nearly impossible. Best to ignore them.

RippleRock.

Trying to follow you here. Do you mean 'contested', instead of contended?

Anyways, FOS was 2012. Jalmer Johnson is a financial analyst from the States who worked with the NC in 2016-2017. He had nothing to do with any decision to mount or not to mount a challenge at the Supreme Court of a five year old piece of federal back to work legislation. That was the MEC's call, based on advice from ACPA legal and an external labour lawyer. Some of our members disagree, and think we had a realistic shot and should have challenged. That's another thread entirely.

But to your other point. Isn't the 'seniority inversion' (I assume you're talking about ACrouge socialized bidding) pretty much gone now? No rouge widebodies, and the same work rules on the A320 for all members for the next three years? I'll be pretty disappointed if we don't make that a permanent change.