RCAF looking overseas to fill pilot shortage

[McKinley]

The thing is, when I have some of these military guys in the same parcel or airspace picking up and IFR clearance / getting a clearance etc it can be pretty painful to listen to.

[Tuza]

I'll add to that.

Offering "part time" (reserve) positions would do wonders for the Air Force. Doesn't the National Guard in the USA do that?

They do offer Reserves....in Edmonton....

Old Country? My dad is ex-army, my husband and dad-in-law are ex-airforce. What I wouldn't give to have been a test pilot. Instead I'm stuck in civi-land. None of the three abv mentioned discouraged me from trying. As the saying goes: Only the undisciplined would try to weasel out of at least even trying once and excuse that it was "character".

Canada is a far cry from the old country. Just ask my Romanian ex-airforce neighbour.

Cheers!

[SAR_YQQ]

Hey folks, I’ve been in the RCAF for over 20 years now - been Winged for 17 years, flown for 14 of those years. Don’t believe the hype about only flying for 3 years and then riding a desk - that just doesn’t happen.

We aren’t hiring European civilians to be pilots - we are looking for NATO, SEATO trained military pilots to direct transfer their skills to the RCAF. We have been doing this for years, plenty of Brits, Germans, etc wearing the Maple Leaf now - all of them are Canadian citizens.

Pay scales can be found on the Canada.ca site, just google search CAF pay rates and you can find the monthly salary of every rank. We do alright at the start, when other civilians pilots might be starting off as bush pilots or flying 1900s - we fall behind dramatically when we compare to a 6th year FO at Big Red.

There was a comment about cringe worthy IFR clearances on the frequency - it happens, that’s how we train our FOs, we make them talk to ATC and learn. Funny enough, it’s not our primary job to fly around IFR, we just use that as a tool to get to where we need to work, it’s not our only thing.

[co-joe]

I'll add to that.

Offering "part time" (reserve) positions would do wonders for the Air Force. Doesn't the National Guard in the USA do that?

The air national guard is exactly what Canada needs. Buy 20 vipers, base them in cities people actually want to live in, use that as a carrot dangle that people can work towards later in their career...poof retention problem gone.

[mijbil]

The thing is, when I have some of these military guys in the same parcel or airspace picking up and IFR clearance / getting a clearance etc it can be pretty painful to listen to.

I'll echo what SAR_YQQ says. The new pilots have to learn somehow. Think back to when you had 200 hours.

As far as your experiences with the recruiters, I'll be honest. It's not the brightest bulbs that get posted to a recruiting centre unless someone is looking for a geographical posting like their hometown or something. The recruiting process is broken and it is known at the highest levels that it is broken. Why don't "they" fix it? Embedded bureaucracy is my best answer. When LGen Al Meinzinger, Chief of the Air Staff, knows that it takes between 4-7 months to get a pensioned ex RCAF pilot back in either the reserves or reg force, and he can't make it go any faster, there is a problem. For an off the street pilot it's even worse. Again I don't know why it is so painfully slow other than the recruiters are not the sharpest knives, perhaps they are understaffed, there are so many little hoops to jump through. It is tragic and now that things look to be ramping up again in some sectors, they have missed their window to re-recruit.

As far as your experience not translating into RCAF flying, that is untrue. The Navy PO hasn't a clue. The physics are indeed the same but the flying tends to be a bit different. Instead of going A to B, often you take off go to point A in space (often IFR but not necessarily), go "operational VFR / Due Regard "(if outside Cdn domestic airspace) or just VFR operational or maybe MARSA if under the aegis of an AWACS, you do your thing and then recover perhaps to the same aerodrome as departure, or another one and do so via a pop up IFR clearance or maybe VFR but talking to the right controllers depending on the airspace. Firebombing is closest civ variant that I can think of but that's just one aspect of mil aviation. Airbus ops is probably closest to civ flying. To be honest it's often really close in many aspects but there are obvious differences.

Hope that helps.

[tsgarp]

The RCAF has a bit of problem finding pilots.

No, the RCAF had no trouble attracting qualified applicants. What the RCAF has is difficulty getting those applicants through the training system fast enough. Fixing this problem is out of the RCAF’s hands, and has been ever since pilot training was contracted out.

As for your other points, they are mostly wrong.
-Most of the places the RCAF posts you have some good things to offer, you just need to be open minded.
-If you are flexible and smart you can dodge a desk. If you do get stuck on a desk you can go fly civi in your off time (Instruct, drop skydivers, do helo tours)
-For most pilots, time away from home is comparable to that of an airline
-It’s not the Marines; you aren’t going to be standing at attention yelling ‘Yes Sir, No Sir.” All day. It’s not uncommon to be on a first name basis with everybody except the CO.

The things that do tend to wear people down are the geographical mobility (moving every 3 years or so). This is not all that different from someone starting out in civi flying, and if you play your cards right, you can attain geographic stability after a few postings. The other thing that wears people down are the ancillary requirements that come with being an officer; fitness tests, secondary duties, dealing with government bureaucracy.

[Julian.B]

The RCAF has a bit of problem finding pilots.

No, the RCAF had no trouble attracting qualified applicants. What the RCAF has is difficulty getting those applicants through the training system fast enough. Fixing this problem is out of the RCAF’s hands, and has been ever since pilot training was contracted out.

As for your other points, they are mostly wrong.
-Most of the places the RCAF post you have some good things to offer, you just need to be open minded.
-If you are flexible and smart you can dodge a desk. If you do get stuck on a desk you can go fly civi in your off time (Instruct, drop skydivers, do helo tours)
-For most pilots, time away from home is comparable to that of an airline
-It’s not the Marines; you aren’t going to be standing at attention yelling ‘Yes Sir, No Sir.” All day. It’s not uncommon to be on a first name basis with everybody except the CO.

The things that do tend to wear people down are the geographical mobility (moving every 3 years or so). This is not all that different from someone starting out in civi flying, and if you play your cards right, you can attain geographic stability after a few posting. The other thing that wears people down are the ancillary requirements that come with being an officer; fitness tests, secondary duties, dealing with government bureaucracy.

"Most of the places the RCAF post you have some good things to offer, you just need to be open minded".

That made me chuckle. That's such a "Canadian" thing to say. In other words, "It's a sh*thole". I've been to Cold Lake. No thanks. Even if I could deal with living there, what would my family do? What would my wife and kids do? Go to a sub par school and have sub par opportunities, while enduring an abysmal Canadian winter that lasts 8+ months? Give me a break. Why not move that base to (or close to) Edmonton? At least it's a real city with plenty of opportunities for educated spouses.

Sorry mate. You can't sell me on the military, especially the "Canadian Military" and that's just it. The majority of my pilots friends would not even consider that type of career and I think the retention issue (which we're actually all discussing here) is for those very reasons. I remember how excited I was getting my first flying job up North in the bush. It got old pretty quickly and I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there.

Now that I'm back in the real world, working for a decent airline, having a nice little house in Southwestern Ontario where weather is a lot more tolerable, I really enjoy my life. Hey, there will always be guys and gals dreaming of flying a 40 year old F-18.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

I think I saw it in the last Federal Budget...spend billions, move RCAF bases to big cities so that Julian B might consider applying his formidable pilot skills to the RCAF. The RCAF doesn't revolve around your absurd wishes.

[Outlaw58]

Fixing this problem is out of the RCAF’s hands, and has been ever since pilot training was contracted out.

Home run.

Funny I had a chat with a former colleague this morning and I believe the same thing (almost verbatim) was spoken in that conversation.

58

[Julian.B]

I think I saw it in the last Federal Budget...spend billions, move RCAF bases to big cities so that Julian B might consider applying his formidable pilot skills to the RCAF. The RCAF doesn't revolve around your absurd wishes.

Hahaha. Did you bother reading anything written above? At no point did I ever wish to join the military; any military for ANY reason. I neither care, nor do I have the character to be an army boy.

Doesn't the topic say: "RCAF looking overseas to fill pilot shortage"?

We're discussing possible reasons for that shortage. One of them is the "location" of these postings, that sucks ass for anyone wishing to bring their families there (except perhaps Trenton, Comox and a few others). Have fun "Lt. Dan".

[Outlaw58]

The RCAF has a bit of problem finding pilots.

No, the RCAF had no trouble attracting qualified applicants. What the RCAF has is difficulty getting those applicants through the training system fast enough. Fixing this problem is out of the RCAF’s hands, and has been ever since pilot training was contracted out.

As for your other points, they are mostly wrong.
-Most of the places the RCAF post you have some good things to offer, you just need to be open minded.
-If you are flexible and smart you can dodge a desk. If you do get stuck on a desk you can go fly civi in your off time (Instruct, drop skydivers, do helo tours)
-For most pilots, time away from home is comparable to that of an airline
-It’s not the Marines; you aren’t going to be standing at attention yelling ‘Yes Sir, No Sir.” All day. It’s not uncommon to be on a first name basis with everybody except the CO.

The things that do tend to wear people down are the geographical mobility (moving every 3 years or so). This is not all that different from someone starting out in civi flying, and if you play your cards right, you can attain geographic stability after a few posting. The other thing that wears people down are the ancillary requirements that come with being an officer; fitness tests, secondary duties, dealing with government bureaucracy.

"Most of the places the RCAF post you have some good things to offer, you just need to be open minded".

That made me chuckle. That's such a "Canadian" thing to say. In other words, "It's a sh*thole". I've been to Cold Lake. No thanks. Even if I could deal with living there, what would my family do? What would my wife and kids do? Go to a sub par school and have sub par opportunities, while enduring an abysmal Canadian winter that lasts 8+ months? Give me a break. Why not move that base to (or close to) Edmonton? At least it's a real city with plenty of opportunities for educated spouses.

Sorry mate. You can't sell me on the military, especially the "Canadian Military" and that's just it. The majority of my pilots friends would not even consider that type of career and I think the retention issue (which we're actually all discussing here) is for those very reasons. I remember how excited I was getting my first flying job up North in the bush. It got old pretty quickly and I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there.

Now that I'm back in the real world, working for a decent airline, having a nice little house in Southwestern Ontario where weather is a lot more tolerable, I really enjoy my life. Hey, there will always be guys and gals dreaming of flying a 40 year old F-18.

Julian, you keep bringing up the F18 and Cold Lake...

At first you sounded a lot like someone who genuinely found the idea of a military flying career repugnant. Now it's starting to sound like someone who really wanted to fly fighters and realized he will never fulfill that dream.

You can fly in Comox, Halifax, Ottawa, Quebec city, Montreal, Edmonton, Victoria, Trenton ain't so bad either, and many other places....just not F18s.

58

[Julian.B]

Outlaw.

Honestly no. Honestly. I actually wanted to fly an A330 for Air Canada or Transat. That was my dream. That will never happen either.

I bring up Cold Lake for two reasons:

1. It's an abysmal place to live, mostly due to its shitty climate and lack of things to do
2. The CF-18s are actually an embarrassment to Canada. Even Czech Republic has new fighters than us. That's to no fault of the military. I blame the idiotic politicians that have turned our military into a... how can I put this nicely? "Honorary establishment?". We can't really do anything without the support of our brothers to the South.

[tsgarp]

Sorry mate. You can't sell me on the military.

My post wasn’t for your benefit; it was meant for the other people reading this thread. They would likely appreciate some input from someone who has seen both the RCAF and the civi flying industry.

[tsgarp]

I think I saw it in the last Federal Budget...spend billions, move RCAF bases to big cities so that Julian B might consider applying his formidable pilot skills to the RCAF. The RCAF doesn't revolve around your absurd wishes.

Well, if Jagmeet gets his way, and turns the entire military into social workers, they just might have to move the bases to population centres.

[Julian.B]

I think I saw it in the last Federal Budget...spend billions, move RCAF bases to big cities so that Julian B might consider applying his formidable pilot skills to the RCAF. The RCAF doesn't revolve around your absurd wishes.

Well, if Jagmeet gets his way, and turns the entire military into social workers, they just might have to move the bases to population centres.

Both the NDP and Liberals have shortchanged the military. The Conservatives haven't done much either.

[Tuza]

Outlaw.

Honestly no. Honestly. I actually wanted to fly an A330 for Air Canada or Transat. That was my dream. That will never happen either.

I bring up Cold Lake for two reasons:

1. It's an abysmal place to live, mostly due to its shitty climate and lack of things to do
2. The CF-18s are actually an embarrassment to Canada. Even Czech Republic has new fighters than us. That's to no fault of the military. I blame the idiotic politicians that have turned our military into a... how can I put this nicely? "Honorary establishment?". We can't really do anything without the support of our brothers to the South.

It's not that bad and there are plenty of things to do - you have to climatize yourself to the environment. Not the other way around.

SW ON is okay. I'm from there. Warmish and yeah, if you're not cut out for Cdn wx, probs best not to be here. But the Old Country, fr which many of my family is from, has problems too. Last I checked, it gets pretty cold... most places there.

Plenty of Reserves in the Airforce for you in your area. http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/air ... ntact.page

They work somewhat around your work schedule so you can do both, be part-time, and not move to "abysmal" places with your family.

Many kids from bases I know followed their parents or went opposite. As for Transat - well...lol..better to go with AC at the moment. For the 330...unless your past retirement, lots of time to get there. Gotta work for it, not complain loud. Not a grease wheel.

Good luck. If it's Just because you've got misguided anger toward your dad and the military, probably best not to come on a forum that literally has "AF" in the title.

Also, be careful not to get too used to the warm climate. It makes you soft. Take it from someone who has lived all over this beautiful, hardy, definitely not for the weak, country!

Cheers bud! Good luck to your career path.

[hithere]

I went to school with a lot of “Military brats” growing up and have met many since. I always found it sad how, when you asked them where they were from, it was always “ Well I was born here, spent X years here, spent X years here etc. they basically have nowhere to call home. Don’t get me wrong, I would dearly love to fly an F18 or Tudor but the sacrifice of living in BFE and the aforementioned issues for wife and kids kept me solidly civilian.

[Julian.B]

Outlaw.

Honestly no. Honestly. I actually wanted to fly an A330 for Air Canada or Transat. That was my dream. That will never happen either.

I bring up Cold Lake for two reasons:

1. It's an abysmal place to live, mostly due to its shitty climate and lack of things to do
2. The CF-18s are actually an embarrassment to Canada. Even Czech Republic has new fighters than us. That's to no fault of the military. I blame the idiotic politicians that have turned our military into a... how can I put this nicely? "Honorary establishment?". We can't really do anything without the support of our brothers to the South.

It's not that bad and there are plenty of things to do - you have to climatize yourself to the environment. Not the other way around.

SW ON is okay. I'm from there. Warmish and yeah, if you're not cut out for Cdn wx, probs best not to be here. But the Old Country, fr which many of my family is from, has problems too. Last I checked, it gets pretty cold... most places there.

Plenty of Reserves in the Airforce for you in your area. http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/air ... ntact.page

They work somewhat around your work schedule so you can do both, be part-time, and not move to "abysmal" places with your family.

Many kids from bases I know followed their parents or went opposite. As for Transat - well...lol..better to go with AC at the moment. For the 330...unless your past retirement, lots of time to get there. Gotta work for it, not complain loud. Not a grease wheel.

Good luck. If it's Just because you've got misguided anger toward your dad and the military, probably best not to come on a forum that literally has "AF" in the title.

Also, be careful not to get too used to the warm climate. It makes you soft. Take it from someone who has lived all over this beautiful, hardy, definitely not for the weak, country!

Cheers bud! Good luck to your career path.

That's cool to see Reserve jobs in the RCAF. It's a good way for previous military pilots to keep doing what they love without long term commitment.

As far as "cold climate" is concerned. I spent 5 years up North in Yukon and NWT flying. I've paid my dues. I hate winter, pure and simple. Also being of European descent, I miss the cities. I've never been a nature guy and "hunting, fishing, snowmobiling" are as exciting to me as watching paint dry. I like patios, beer and looking at European hotties walk by. If I had a chance to pick between a nice cottage on a Lake in Canada and living in a small flat in the center of Prague, I'd pick Prague in a heartbeat.

Anyway. Going off topic. I still claim that my opinions, although "ridiculous" to some, is pertinent to this thread, since we're talking retention of pilots in the military. To some, military life is perfectly fine. To people LIKE ME, it's not.

Cheers dude!

[Tuza]

Outlaw.

Honestly no. Honestly. I actually wanted to fly an A330 for Air Canada or Transat. That was my dream. That will never happen either.

I bring up Cold Lake for two reasons:

1. It's an abysmal place to live, mostly due to its shitty climate and lack of things to do
2. The CF-18s are actually an embarrassment to Canada. Even Czech Republic has new fighters than us. That's to no fault of the military. I blame the idiotic politicians that have turned our military into a... how can I put this nicely? "Honorary establishment?". We can't really do anything without the support of our brothers to the South.

It's not that bad and there are plenty of things to do - you have to climatize yourself to the environment. Not the other way around.

SW ON is okay. I'm from there. Warmish and yeah, if you're not cut out for Cdn wx, probs best not to be here. But the Old Country, fr which many of my family is from, has problems too. Last I checked, it gets pretty cold... most places there.

Plenty of Reserves in the Airforce for you in your area. http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/air ... ntact.page

They work somewhat around your work schedule so you can do both, be part-time, and not move to "abysmal" places with your family.

Many kids from bases I know followed their parents or went opposite. As for Transat - well...lol..better to go with AC at the moment. For the 330...unless your past retirement, lots of time to get there. Gotta work for it, not complain loud. Not a grease wheel.

Good luck. If it's Just because you've got misguided anger toward your dad and the military, probably best not to come on a forum that literally has "AF" in the title.

Also, be careful not to get too used to the warm climate. It makes you soft. Take it from someone who has lived all over this beautiful, hardy, definitely not for the weak, country!

Cheers bud! Good luck to your career path.

That's cool to see Reserve jobs in the RCAF. It's a good way for previous military pilots to keep doing what they love without long term commitment.

As far as "cold climate" is concerned. I spent 5 years up North in Yukon and NWT flying. I've paid my dues. I hate winter, pure and simple. Also being of European descent, I miss the cities. I've never been a nature guy and "hunting, fishing, snowmobiling" are as exciting to me as watching paint dry. I like patios, beer and looking at European hotties walk by. If I had a chance to pick between a nice cottage on a Lake in Canada and living in a small flat in the center of Prague, I'd pick Prague in a heartbeat.

Anyway. Going off topic. I still claim that my opinions, although "ridiculous" to some, is pertinent to this thread, since we're talking retention of pilots in the military. To some, military life is perfectly fine. To people LIKE ME, it's not.

Cheers dude!

I'm not a dude.

But cheers to you the same.

Respect all you said minus the hottie part since you're married. Can't even imagine not being happy in mine...although it is my 2nd...

[mijbil]

Big pay jump for experienced captains. Old pay scale topped out at 10 year incentive. Now goes to 20. No more "flight pay" which was a taxable allowance. Now it's all base pay which means pensionable. That said, the bureaucracy is off the charts but if you can handle that..... I know one guy who is perhaps planning to do another 2-3 years ( he is one of the 15 who got back in the Reg Force) since the pension bump will be about 30K per year meaning from 50K to 80K for doing a few more years.
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-nat ... ec-204-215
In a far earlier thread I once said I was getting out and staying out and that's still true, but rumours of the mythical pay increase have finally come to fruition (passed by the Treasury board) so I asked the question of the re-intake guy and what is on offer is YMJ or YPG for flying (instructor in other words) or YWG for paper pusher. We will see how this affects retention with things starting to ramp up again slowly in the civilian sectors but that one guy I mentioned is at WS (laid off) and may elect to stay in the RCAF now for a bit. What is good for all is that this massive pay bump for the RCAF pilots (and SAR-TECHS) will put some pressure on the civil sector to increase pay. Where I am we took what is effectively a 10% pay cut (1000 MYG to 900). Since most of us are not back yet it's irrelevant right now, but as soon as we come back, it will be more than we are making on CEWS and doing McJobs but less than in 2019.
I know the mythical pilot shortage was actually being felt as the smaller carriers. It hadn't quite reached all of 705 land but was starting. Now as things get back to normal over the next while and as some will have retired early and for good and others will have found other careers, then it will be interesting times at the negotiating table.