https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/can ... -aviators/

Cant find pilots or pay more, just import them...

Are they paying the pilots THAT poorly? Honest question, I have never seen the pay scales for pilots.

Germany is doing the same: https://www.career.aero/site/de/job/show/id/3408
Seems to be more for a trainer role though.

CL-Skadoo! wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 4:51 am Are they paying the pilots THAT poorly? Honest question, I have never seen the pay scales for pilots.

Root cause of RCAF pilot shortages is retention.

36 years in the RCAF, for me salary has never been an issue. Entry salary is far above the industry, not to mention above par training is included. Top scale is definitely below industry, but that is offset by the fact that is one of the few places where you still get a DB pension plan.

Where the RCAF is severely lacking is career progression. It is tailored around pilots who will spend 2 tours as Capt then move on up the rank ladder. There are absolutely no provisions to manage the career of a pilot who chooses to remain in flying positions leading to unchecked levels of attrition.

New wing grads continue to be slotted in highly desirable positions that remain inaccessible to long standing career pilots. This causes these new wing grads to quickly gain experience desirable in the industry (Like transport airplanes) and quitting early before the RCAF gets a return on investment, while at the same time restricting long standing RCAF pilots from improving their work-life balance (like transferring to Search and Rescue) leading to an early retirement and loss of valuable flight experience.

In other words, fix the career progression in the RCAF and that will go a long way to solve their pilot shortage.

My more than 2 cents.

58

Strange, I applied about 6 months ago and they told me they are overstaffed for pilots. Maybe they don't like airline guys.

Ash Ketchum wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 7:18 am Strange, I applied about 6 months ago and they told me they are overstaffed for pilots. Maybe they don't like airline guys.

Tell 'em you identify as a lesbian - that should give you enough diversity points to do the trick!
[YouTube] https://youtu.be/KwTTQPkO8fM [/YouTube]

Military flying had ZERO appeal to me, for a number of reasons:

1. Limited flying. Like the guy above said, after a few years you end up "flying a desk". Who wants that?

2. The chance of you being posted in a decent place is almost ZERO. Who wants to live in Cold Lake, Bagotville, Winnipeg, Moose Jaw or some other cold, uninteresting place? Trenton's okay. Comox's okay. The rest...? Sorry. ZERO appeal.

3. The flying doesn't seem that interesting. As an airline pilot, I quickly got over the novelty of flying and it just became a job that revolves around lifestyle. I work to live, not live to work.

4. I'm not the type to take orders and submit to them unconditionally. Although I have thousands of hours, flying in the bush and at the airlines, I'd never make it into the RCAF. I'm just not cut out (character wise) to be one of them "YES SIR" boys & gals.

Julian.B wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:52 pm Military flying had ZERO appeal to me, for a number of reasons:

1. Limited flying. Like the guy above said, after a few years you end up "flying a desk". Who wants that?

2. The chance of you being posted in a decent place is almost ZERO. Who wants to live in Cold Lake, Bagotville, Winnipeg, Moose Jaw or some other cold, uninteresting place? Trenton's okay. Comox's okay. The rest...? Sorry. ZERO appeal.

3. The flying doesn't seem that interesting. As an airline pilot, I quickly got over the novelty of flying and it just became a job that revolves around lifestyle. I work to live, not live to work.

4. I'm not the type to take orders and submit to them unconditionally. Although I have thousands of hours, flying in the bush and at the airlines, I'd never make it into the RCAF. I'm just not cut out (character wise) to be one of them "YES SIR" boys & gals.

You will be happy to learn that the RCAF has ZERO interest in pilot applicants who share your views and priorities. So no harm done on either side!

58

Except that the RCAF still has critical shortages of staff largely because of the departure of pilots who no longer want to be there precisely because of some or all of the things he listed even though they passed aircrew selection.

There’s a paradigm shift as people have more information available to them. The people who have the qualities, skills, and aptitude to join the RCAF likely feel that they could do far better in other fields. And they are right.

Outlaw58 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:07 am

Julian.B wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:52 pm Military flying had ZERO appeal to me, for a number of reasons:

1. Limited flying. Like the guy above said, after a few years you end up "flying a desk". Who wants that?

2. The chance of you being posted in a decent place is almost ZERO. Who wants to live in Cold Lake, Bagotville, Winnipeg, Moose Jaw or some other cold, uninteresting place? Trenton's okay. Comox's okay. The rest...? Sorry. ZERO appeal.

3. The flying doesn't seem that interesting. As an airline pilot, I quickly got over the novelty of flying and it just became a job that revolves around lifestyle. I work to live, not live to work.

4. I'm not the type to take orders and submit to them unconditionally. Although I have thousands of hours, flying in the bush and at the airlines, I'd never make it into the RCAF. I'm just not cut out (character wise) to be one of them "YES SIR" boys & gals.

You will be happy to learn that the RCAF has ZERO interest in pilot applicants who share your views and priorities. So no harm done on either side!

58

Right. I absolutely agree with you about the part that I'm not "RCAF material", because I am not the type to join the military. It's a character thing. I don't want to be in that type of structure and commitment. However, there are people that are okay with that if the other factors were better.

Some individuals may be okay to take orders and submit to that type of lifestyle, but may not do it because (maybe):

1. They don't want to live in Cold Lake
2. They don't want to fly for 3 years then have an administrative job for 7...
3. Be away from their families for long stretches of time.

So, "no harm done" is not exactly correct. The RCAF has a bit of problem finding pilots. Don't forget: Military pilots transition to civilian jobs, not the other way around; at least not in even percentages.

I have had 3 pilot buddies go through the apitutde, interview and test process all to be told they didn't qualify as pilots. 2 were ATPL and 2 spoke french.

I think if the military wanted more pilots they could change the entry requirements. Just cause you can pass what they deem necessary for pilots aptitude doesn't mean you'll be a good pilot. I think we all have seen evidence of that.

Julian.B wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 8:47 am

Outlaw58 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:07 am

Julian.B wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:52 pm Military flying had ZERO appeal to me, for a number of reasons:

1. Limited flying. Like the guy above said, after a few years you end up "flying a desk". Who wants that?

2. The chance of you being posted in a decent place is almost ZERO. Who wants to live in Cold Lake, Bagotville, Winnipeg, Moose Jaw or some other cold, uninteresting place? Trenton's okay. Comox's okay. The rest...? Sorry. ZERO appeal.

3. The flying doesn't seem that interesting. As an airline pilot, I quickly got over the novelty of flying and it just became a job that revolves around lifestyle. I work to live, not live to work.

4. I'm not the type to take orders and submit to them unconditionally. Although I have thousands of hours, flying in the bush and at the airlines, I'd never make it into the RCAF. I'm just not cut out (character wise) to be one of them "YES SIR" boys & gals.

You will be happy to learn that the RCAF has ZERO interest in pilot applicants who share your views and priorities. So no harm done on either side!

58

Right. I absolutely agree with you about the part that I'm not "RCAF material", because I am not the type to join the military. It's a character thing. I don't want to be in that type of structure and commitment. However, there are people that are okay with that if the other factors were better.

Some individuals may be okay to take orders and submit to that type of lifestyle, but may not do it because (maybe):

1. They don't want to live in Cold Lake
2. They don't want to fly for 3 years then have an administrative job for 7...
3. Be away from their families for long stretches of time.

So, "no harm done" is not exactly correct. The RCAF has a bit of problem finding pilots. Don't forget: Military pilots transition to civilian jobs, not the other way around; at least not in even percentages.

Here is a link to a post I made a while ago which contains some points I don't feel like repeating

Also, make sure you have your facts right. Military does not have any issues attracting pilots. Training to standard and retention IS however an issue. Saying that the flow goes only one way is akin to observing that skiers ski downhill. Going one way is easier than the other.

Now don't think I am saying that the RCAF is perfect and should be everyone's dream. I did mention that retention is an issue and over the 36 years I spent in the RCAF, I have to often seen money thrown at pilots that would have stayed anyway when all that is required is to rethink career progression for those who choose to stay in the cockpit rather than to go up in ranks. But we have been and are still straying from the topic of this thread.

RCAF needs to fill cockpits TODAY! not in 2-3 years and only way to do that is a) retain their pilots b) re-hire ex-military pilots or c) attract trained foreign military pilots.

58

Well that's just it sir. Not being able to retain pilots is worse than not being able to attract them. I don't think the RCAF has problems attracting young men and women dreaming of being a hot shot CF-18 pilot. The recruitment posters all look awesome. In reality, it's a bit different, especially from a civilian's point of view.

I remember being a young lad, dreaming about being a pilot. Not once did I ever dream of becoming a military pilot. Why? Mostly because of my dad. He was in the (old country) air force for 12 years flying everything from YAK-52s to L-29s, L-39s and Migs. He made sure I knew that being in the army is hands down the worst career choice any man can make. He hated it and did his outmost to discourage me to even join a military (be it here, or the old country, which I am also a citizen of).

I saw your old post and from your point of view, it looks like an amazing career. I respect that. If you're cut out to do that stuff, so be it. I'm not and I don't know a single friend of mine (pilot) that would even consider joining the armed forces. Civilian careers offer so much more.

There would be very little the RCAF would have to do to retain pilots.

1. Keep them flying longer. Don't give them desks jobs. Pilots don't want to push papers. They want to fly. I know 63 years old guys that don't want to leave their jobs because they love to fly. They'll go as long as they can, not because of the money, but because of the passion.


2. Offer them better bases (forget Cold Lake). Even if Edmonton was a base, at least their families can have a normal life. Nobody wants to live in "bum **** nowhere; especially not the wives / husbands or the kids.

I'll add to that.

Offering "part time" (reserve) positions would do wonders for the Air Force. Doesn't the National Guard in the USA do that?

Do I understand this correctly that they spend all that money on training pilots only to use them for 3 years in a cockpit?

digits_ wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 8:25 pm Do I understand this correctly that they spend all that money on training pilots only to use them for 3 years in a cockpit?

No you don't

58

Julian.B wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 5:06 pm Well that's just it sir. Not being able to retain pilots is worse than not being able to attract them. I don't think the RCAF has problems attracting young men and women dreaming of being a hot shot CF-18 pilot. The recruitment posters all look awesome. In reality, it's a bit different, especially from a civilian's point of view.

I remember being a young lad, dreaming about being a pilot. Not once did I ever dream of becoming a military pilot. Why? Mostly because of my dad. He was in the (old country) air force for 12 years flying everything from YAK-52s to L-29s, L-39s and Migs. He made sure I knew that being in the army is hands down the worst career choice any man can make. He hated it and did his outmost to discourage me to even join a military (be it here, or the old country, which I am also a citizen of).

I saw your old post and from your point of view, it looks like an amazing career. I respect that. If you're cut out to do that stuff, so be it. I'm not and I don't know a single friend of mine (pilot) that would even consider joining the armed forces. Civilian careers offer so much more.

There would be very little the RCAF would have to do to retain pilots.

1. Keep them flying longer. Don't give them desks jobs. Pilots don't want to push papers. They want to fly. I know 63 years old guys that don't want to leave their jobs because they love to fly. They'll go as long as they can, not because of the money, but because of the passion.


2. Offer them better bases (forget Cold Lake). Even if Edmonton was a base, at least their families can have a normal life. Nobody wants to live in "bum **** nowhere; especially not the wives / husbands or the kids.

You do understand that not everyone was brought up to hate the military and that just because something does not appeal to you, does not mean it doesn't appeal to anyone, right?

There are upsides and downsides in every career you would choose. It's like saying being a paramedic would be so much more appealing without all the gore.

By the way I am not trying to convince you of anything. I totally understand, and in an odd kind of way respect, your disdain for the military career. I just want folks who might be interested in such a career to make informed decisions based on factual information and real-life experience.

58

Ash Ketchum wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 7:18 am Strange, I applied about 6 months ago and they told me they are overstaffed for pilots. Maybe they don't like airline guys.

I talked to a Navy PO with recruiting. When I told them I was a civilian airline pilot she had a nervous breakdown saying I needed to be trained from scratch completely and relearn how to fly their aircraft.

Traditional aerodynamics don’t apply to their planes ..

Phoned back and got another person and the same mantra was echoed.. I didn’t want to fly an F18.. I wanted cargo / SAR. ( C130, CC150, Dash8, Aurora, Buffalo, C17)

McKinley wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 9:49 am

Ash Ketchum wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 7:18 am Strange, I applied about 6 months ago and they told me they are overstaffed for pilots. Maybe they don't like airline guys.

I talked to a Navy PO with recruiting. When I told them I was a civilian airline pilot she had a nervous breakdown saying I needed to be trained from scratch completely and relearn how to fly their aircraft.

Traditional aerodynamics don’t apply to their planes ..

Phoned back and got another person and the same mantra was echoed.. I didn’t want to fly an F18.. I wanted cargo / SAR. ( C130, CC150, Dash8, Aurora, Buffalo, C17)

I got the same reply and they actually tried to convince me to go into other "in demand" trades which I declined. Honestly if they just gave me a shot I would make it a career. After Covid furloughs and downgrades I long for the stability that the Canadian Forces would provide.

Ash Ketchum wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 10:51 am

McKinley wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 9:49 am

Ash Ketchum wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 7:18 am Strange, I applied about 6 months ago and they told me they are overstaffed for pilots. Maybe they don't like airline guys.

I talked to a Navy PO with recruiting. When I told them I was a civilian airline pilot she had a nervous breakdown saying I needed to be trained from scratch completely and relearn how to fly their aircraft.

Traditional aerodynamics don’t apply to their planes ..

Phoned back and got another person and the same mantra was echoed.. I didn’t want to fly an F18.. I wanted cargo / SAR. ( C130, CC150, Dash8, Aurora, Buffalo, C17)

I got the same reply and they actually tried to convince me to go into other "in demand" trades which I declined. Honestly if they just gave me a shot I would make it a career. After Covid furloughs and downgrades I long for the stability that the Canadian Forces would provide.

Hahahhaha! I’ve called several times and have had the same response years apart. Good to see that I’m not living in the twilight zone. Yours actually seems worse given that they wanted to steer you into a different trade entirely. On my call with the Navy PO I could literally her there anxiety and desperation in her voice.. from me suggesting I might have some transferable skills from years of flying in the Bush followed by 705 offstrip ops in a designated mountain region followed by national airline ops.

It’s pretty demoralizing to see something like this... (looking for overseas civilian pilots)

The CF does have CEOTP .. which is funny given how I’ve been responded to.

The US military has civillian pilots ..

Like I said, how do I have ZERO transferable skills .. do the CF’s aircraft fly aerodynamically so different than the same civilian aircraft? ( which I also asked) Am I missing something? Funny, AC can take someone with turboprop time or CF18 time and put them right seat in a jet. One has to wonder about the CF’s training ..

I’m not saying I won’t need training ...I’m saying how are we better off in infantry or something unrelated ? WTF.

For me, I wasn’t looking forward to Basic ... but I was stoked for what was on the other side of it. Stability, option to diversify by way of going back to college/ uni and potentially.

I don’t mean to sound arrogant but it’s their loss... still does not make it any less disheartening.

The Canadian aviation industry has been destroyed by the same government... meanwhile, US airlines are hiring in the 1000’s. I agree with you about the future IF a I do get recalled .. under what conditions and how slow will the growth be in the short and long term...

The thing is, when I have some of these military guys in the same parcel or airspace picking up and IFR clearance / getting a clearance etc it can be pretty painful to listen to.

Julian.B wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 5:09 pm I'll add to that.

Offering "part time" (reserve) positions would do wonders for the Air Force. Doesn't the National Guard in the USA do that?

They do offer Reserves....in Edmonton....

Old Country? My dad is ex-army, my husband and dad-in-law are ex-airforce. What I wouldn't give to have been a test pilot. Instead I'm stuck in civi-land. None of the three abv mentioned discouraged me from trying. As the saying goes: Only the undisciplined would try to weasel out of at least even trying once and excuse that it was "character".

Canada is a far cry from the old country. Just ask my Romanian ex-airforce neighbour.

Cheers!

Hey folks, I’ve been in the RCAF for over 20 years now - been Winged for 17 years, flown for 14 of those years. Don’t believe the hype about only flying for 3 years and then riding a desk - that just doesn’t happen.

We aren’t hiring European civilians to be pilots - we are looking for NATO, SEATO trained military pilots to direct transfer their skills to the RCAF. We have been doing this for years, plenty of Brits, Germans, etc wearing the Maple Leaf now - all of them are Canadian citizens.

Pay scales can be found on the Canada.ca site, just google search CAF pay rates and you can find the monthly salary of every rank. We do alright at the start, when other civilians pilots might be starting off as bush pilots or flying 1900s - we fall behind dramatically when we compare to a 6th year FO at Big Red.

There was a comment about cringe worthy IFR clearances on the frequency - it happens, that’s how we train our FOs, we make them talk to ATC and learn. Funny enough, it’s not our primary job to fly around IFR, we just use that as a tool to get to where we need to work, it’s not our only thing.

Julian.B wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 5:09 pm I'll add to that.

Offering "part time" (reserve) positions would do wonders for the Air Force. Doesn't the National Guard in the USA do that?

The air national guard is exactly what Canada needs. Buy 20 vipers, base them in cities people actually want to live in, use that as a carrot dangle that people can work towards later in their career...poof retention problem gone.

McKinley wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 11:32 am The thing is, when I have some of these military guys in the same parcel or airspace picking up and IFR clearance / getting a clearance etc it can be pretty painful to listen to.

I'll echo what SAR_YQQ says. The new pilots have to learn somehow. Think back to when you had 200 hours.

As far as your experiences with the recruiters, I'll be honest. It's not the brightest bulbs that get posted to a recruiting centre unless someone is looking for a geographical posting like their hometown or something. The recruiting process is broken and it is known at the highest levels that it is broken. Why don't "they" fix it? Embedded bureaucracy is my best answer. When LGen Al Meinzinger, Chief of the Air Staff, knows that it takes between 4-7 months to get a pensioned ex RCAF pilot back in either the reserves or reg force, and he can't make it go any faster, there is a problem. For an off the street pilot it's even worse. Again I don't know why it is so painfully slow other than the recruiters are not the sharpest knives, perhaps they are understaffed, there are so many little hoops to jump through. It is tragic and now that things look to be ramping up again in some sectors, they have missed their window to re-recruit.

As far as your experience not translating into RCAF flying, that is untrue. The Navy PO hasn't a clue. The physics are indeed the same but the flying tends to be a bit different. Instead of going A to B, often you take off go to point A in space (often IFR but not necessarily), go "operational VFR / Due Regard "(if outside Cdn domestic airspace) or just VFR operational or maybe MARSA if under the aegis of an AWACS, you do your thing and then recover perhaps to the same aerodrome as departure, or another one and do so via a pop up IFR clearance or maybe VFR but talking to the right controllers depending on the airspace. Firebombing is closest civ variant that I can think of but that's just one aspect of mil aviation. Airbus ops is probably closest to civ flying. To be honest it's often really close in many aspects but there are obvious differences.

Hope that helps.