Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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Bede
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

Post by Bede »

I think you missed my point. You make valuable contributions to this board and I know you are well read. My point was of survivorship bias. It's easy to point out successful people who dropped out of school and were highly successful. However, you never hear about the much larger proportion of drop outs who were never successful and live miserable lives. You pointing out your success without university is meaningless unless we also hear from the people who dropped out who weren't successful and wish that they had stuck it out.

Despite my education, I'm actually not that keen on recommending university to everyone. I agree with you on this point. But, on average, university graduates earn more than non-university graduates. Firstly, because, on average, they have higher intelligence*, second, because unfortunately, university serves as a barrier to entry for the majority of higher paying jobs.

*yes very offensive, but very true. People who are successful without a university education tend to be very intelligent which correlates to financial success. Conversely, successful university graduates tend to be successful because they are intelligent, not because they went to university.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

Post by digits_ »

mmmike wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 10:46 pm Hey, just wondering if an aviation diploma is worth it. Or maybe even a college degree. I am currently applying to many schools aviation programs and am wondering if they are worth my money as they cost quite more than the average flight school in my area. Either from personal experience or from friends, how was it for you and was it better than no diploma or degree in your opinion.
Cheers
If you would like to get a diploma or degree, get a 'real' one in a field that is of interest to you and preferably something that could help you to get a nice job to pay for your flight training.

If you want to fly right away, just do that. Aviation diploma's seem to be a money grab. Maybe some might qualify for the Air Canada diploma checkbox, but other than that I doubt anyone sees value in it. They aren't difficult enough to impress management types if you want to go for a management position at some point, and they aren't valuable enough to hire you over a rampie for a first flying job. Maybe things will change if more and more people get them, but I doubt it.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

Post by rookiepilot »

Bede wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:43 am I think you missed my point. You make valuable contributions to this board and I know you are well read. My point was of survivorship bias. It's easy to point out successful people who dropped out of school and were highly successful. However, you never hear about the much larger proportion of drop outs who were never successful and live miserable lives. You pointing out your success without university is meaningless unless we also here from the dozens of people who dropped out who weren't successful and wish that they had stuck it out.

Despite my education, I'm actually not that keen on recommending university to everyone. I agree with you on this point. But, on average, university graduates earn more than non-university graduates. Firstly, because, on average, they have higher intelligence*, second, because unfortunately, university serves as a barrier to entry for the majority of higher paying jobs.

*yes very offensive, but very true. People who are successful without a university education tend to be very intelligent which correlates to financial success. Conversely, successful university graduates tend to be successful because they are intelligent, not because they went to university.
OK, thats great. Agree with most of what you write. I'm just saying....it's possible, to find a different model. Like starting a float plane tourist operation, just as one example, using the money that would have been spent on a degree.

And...the missing education must be replaced, and many who fit my profile -- dropouts who founded companies -- are very well read. Eg. Buffett is known for reading hours every day. My eyes hurt every day, I read so much.

My complaint, and I'm willing to be challenged, is over the last few decades, is university costs have gone way up -- and resultant debt -- and quality has gone way down -- not everywhere, but a lot of places. Part of this has to be the bizarre forces that have taken over campuses....makes me sick to think about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term ... Management

Here the LTCM, about how PHD's tried to blow up the financial system in 1998. This story I touch on in my book, if the editing process ever gets finished, that is
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Bede
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:53 am
My complaint, and I'm willing to be challenged, is over the last few decades, is university costs have gone way up -- and resultant debt -- and quality has gone way down -- not everywhere, but a lot of places. Part of this has to be the bizarre forces that have taken over campuses....makes me sick to think about it.
Couldn't agree more.

Unfortunately, HR folks and society need a method to stratify people by competency. Of the 100 applicants, how do we decide who to consider further? Unfortunately society has decided to stratify by academic credentials. Further, the problem is getting worse, not better. You used to be able to get a job as a bank teller. Now you need a bachelor degree. Now some university grads can't get jobs so their sticking it out for 2 more years for a Master's. All to get an entry level job that could be done by a reasonably smart high school grad. It's madness, but I don't know what the alternative is.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

Post by digits_ »

Bede wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:29 am It's madness, but I don't know what the alternative is.
Government funded education. Almost free university/college degrees.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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Bede wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:29 am
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:53 am
My complaint, and I'm willing to be challenged, is over the last few decades, is university costs have gone way up -- and resultant debt -- and quality has gone way down -- not everywhere, but a lot of places. Part of this has to be the bizarre forces that have taken over campuses....makes me sick to think about it.
Couldn't agree more.

Unfortunately, HR folks and society need a method to stratify people by competency. Of the 100 applicants, how do we decide who to consider further? Unfortunately society has decided to stratify by academic credentials. Further, the problem is getting worse, not better. You used to be able to get a job as a bank teller. Now you need a bachelor degree. Now some university grads can't get jobs so their sticking it out for 2 more years for a Master's. All to get an entry level job that could be done by a reasonably smart high school grad. It's madness, but I don't know what the alternative is.
It's a giant scam, is what it is, that's partly responsible for bankrupting our young people.

I understand your point, Bede. I don't have an answer, except to say I said "no" once at the beginning of my career, to a big bank I considered working for -- they wanted an MBA, all they cared about -- I was already successful, didn't matter -- and I'd say "no" again.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

Post by airway »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:33 am
Bede wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:29 am It's madness, but I don't know what the alternative is.
Government funded education. Almost free university/college degrees.
I assume you are talking about free university tuition similar to other countries like Germany and France (I'm not sure if that includes colleges). Living expenses, books, administrative/lab fees are not covered. My son is in a regular undergrad program at The University of Calgary, and payed $6071 in tuition in 2020 for the 2, 4 month semesters.

I'm sure this kind of savings could enable more people to go to university, but there will likely be some trade offs.

Just off the top of my head: larger class sizes, especially in the early years. Very little extra help for students who just need a little help. Devaluing the degree (easier to get, now I have to get a masters/ doctorate to stand out). More universities would have to be built to accommodate everybody who wants to go, and I would assume would have to meet a low entry standard.



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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

Post by digits_ »

airway wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:31 am
digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:33 am
Bede wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:29 am It's madness, but I don't know what the alternative is.
Government funded education. Almost free university/college degrees.
I assume you are talking about free university tuition similar to other countries like Germany and France (I'm not sure if that includes colleges). Living expenses, books, administrative/lab fees are not covered. My son is in a regular undergrad program at The University of Calgary, and payed $6071 in tuition in 2020 for the 2, 4 month semesters.

I'm sure this kind of savings could enable more people to go to university, but there will likely be some trade offs.

Just off the top of my head: larger class sizes, especially in the early years. Very little extra help for students who just need a little help. Devaluing the degree (easier to get, now I have to get a masters/ doctorate to stand out). More universities would have to be built to accommodate everybody who wants to go, and I would assume would have to meet a low entry standard.
Yes I am. At least the students don't end up with huge debt. Living expenses is an issue, for sure, but a student job could relatively easy take care of that.

The trade offs you mention are already happening with paid courses as well. It doesn't really matter much who pays the bills: government or the student, the university will always want as many customers as possible. If the government funds it, they can also impose some testing you have to pass in order to attend.

Education is important. Hopefully that would get more people into universities. Society would only benefit from it.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:41 am
Yes I am. At least the students don't end up with huge debt. Living expenses is an issue, for sure, but a student job could relatively easy take care of that.

The trade offs you mention are already happening with paid courses as well. It doesn't really matter much who pays the bills: government or the student, the university will always want as many customers as possible. If the government funds it, they can also impose some testing you have to pass in order to attend.

Education is important. Hopefully that would get more people into universities. Society would only benefit from it.
In Europe university is free but only to select individuals. You don’t get into university unless you’re at the top of the class.

Second, free education is a regressive policy because university students tend to come from more well to do households. Meanwhile, the plumbers tax dollars are contributing,
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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Free Trade Schools.
Free Financial Literacy courses.

Second one will never happen, cause the elites want, and need you dependent. Otherwise it would be taught in high school.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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Bede wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:14 pm
digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:41 am
Yes I am. At least the students don't end up with huge debt. Living expenses is an issue, for sure, but a student job could relatively easy take care of that.

The trade offs you mention are already happening with paid courses as well. It doesn't really matter much who pays the bills: government or the student, the university will always want as many customers as possible. If the government funds it, they can also impose some testing you have to pass in order to attend.

Education is important. Hopefully that would get more people into universities. Society would only benefit from it.
In Europe university is free but only to select individuals. You don’t get into university unless you’re at the top of the class.
I'm sure the policies vary within each country, but there are plenty of countries where you can enter university for pretty much any degree you want with just a high school diploma with a passing grade. Plenty of underperforming high school students achieve a university degree when they are studying a field that really interests them.

It's not completely free, but much much cheaper than here. Some stellar students requiring financial aid might get a nearly completely free ticket, but those exceptions are rare.
Bede wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:14 pm Second, free education is a regressive policy because university students tend to come from more well to do households. Meanwhile, the plumbers tax dollars are contributing,
What do you mean by 'regressive policy'?

The majority of students I went to school with, did not come from rich parents. Plenty were from working families, some from the poorer end of the social ladder. It seems to work pretty well in Western Europe.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:34 pm I'm sure the policies vary within each country, but there are plenty of countries where you can enter university for pretty much any degree you want with just a high school diploma with a passing grade.
Which country? France and Switzerland-definitely not.
digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:34 pm Plenty of underperforming high school students achieve a university degree when they are studying a field that really interests them.
Very few students accomplish this. Typically students that are average in high school flunk out of university. High schools try to stream under performing kids into university. It's very rare for a student who was mediocre in high school to flourish in university. I'm thinking 1%.
digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:34 pm What do you mean by 'regressive policy'?

The majority of students I went to school with, did not come from rich parents. Plenty were from working families, some from the poorer end of the social ladder. It seems to work pretty well in Western Europe.
https://kpu.pressbooks.pub/intercdntax/ ... 20annually.

Progressive taxation: the higher the income, the higher the tax. eg $20k income - 5% marginal tax rate, $75k income - 20% tax rate, $500k income - 55% marginal tax rate.
Regressive taxation: rich pay proportionally less. Eg HST, funding activities that the rich prefer (university, golf clubs, etc.)
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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Bede wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:58 pm
digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:34 pm I'm sure the policies vary within each country, but there are plenty of countries where you can enter university for pretty much any degree you want with just a high school diploma with a passing grade.
Which country? France and Switzerland-definitely not.
digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:34 pm Plenty of underperforming high school students achieve a university degree when they are studying a field that really interests them.
Very few students accomplish this. Typically students that are average in high school flunk out of university. High schools try to stream under performing kids into university. It's very rare for a student who was mediocre in high school to flourish in university. I'm thinking 1%.
digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:34 pm What do you mean by 'regressive policy'?

The majority of students I went to school with, did not come from rich parents. Plenty were from working families, some from the poorer end of the social ladder. It seems to work pretty well in Western Europe.
https://kpu.pressbooks.pub/intercdntax/ ... 20annually.

Progressive taxation: the higher the income, the higher the tax. eg $20k income - 5% marginal tax rate, $75k income - 20% tax rate, $500k income - 55% marginal tax rate.
Regressive taxation: rich pay proportionally less. Eg HST, funding activities that the rich prefer (university, golf clubs, etc.)
Belgium and The Netherlands. I believe Spain has entrance exams to get admission, so your grades do not directly matter.

I really liked the system. You don't get penalized for not doing well in courses that don't fit you, or bad grades while young, and you can use that time for other projects.

Chances are you might wash out of university if you did go too crazy and didn't do any homework, but at least everybody gets an affordable choice.

I don't think the regressive tax thing is an issue. A plumber might generate taxes a few years earlier, but generally the university candidate will earn more money over their career, and pay more tax.

I know a few people who came from very low income families who were smart and got an almost free university degree. If they would have had to pay Canadian, USA or even UK tuition, they would never have been able to attend. Europeans are way more risk averse towards going into debt. Very few 'poor' people would take out a loan for education, even if they could.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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Correlation and causation are not the same thing.

Back in the day, degrees, diplomas, etc were not common in the population. Maybe about 10% of individuals, the rest were tradespeople etc. Consider that a highly specialized field like accounting didn't require a degree. You simply needed to pass the exams. In practical terms, there's no difference in competence between accountants with degrees and those without. The work itself does not know the difference.

Because degrees and diplomas correlated with people being more successful, it was falsely attributed as the cause for their success. That's when we had this big movement, starting in the 80s from my perspective, to send anyone and everyone into post secondary. But what people failed to understand is that the people who were successful would had been successful with or without their degree. Those people had other traits, other aspects to themselves that led to them being successful. Its more so that the degree was a stop on the road, but it was not the destination.

I know guys who have degrees in pure science, purse math etc. On the face of it, their degrees didn't make them particularly geared for any job and it was all theory they learned. A lot of these guys just went to work after school and were able to gain a foothold somewhere, mainly in engineering consulting, and then build upon that into careers where they used their skills in math or science.

So to answer the question about aviation diplomas, I dont know. I think it's a matter of how you intend to approach your career. It could be very useful, or entirely useless, but people need to get out of this mindset that the diploma or the degree is going to change their life. It wont. At best it might get you an interview. After that, you're going to have to dig and crawl your way to where you want to go.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

Post by rudder »

Re: an aviation career (commercial pilot).

If you want to fly for AC, you need to tick the box for post secondary completed (2/3/4 year) notwithstanding the preferred hiring ratio with Jazz.

If you want to fly for a US Major (including cargo) you need to tick the box for an accredited 4 year degree.

Those are the rules circa 2021. I don’t see them changing anything soon.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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rudder wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:01 pm Re: an aviation career (commercial pilot).

If you want to fly for AC, you need to tick the box for post secondary completed (2/3/4 year) notwithstanding the preferred hiring ratio with Jazz.

If you want to fly for a US Major (including cargo) you need to tick the box for an accredited 4 year degree.

Those are the rules circa 2021. I don’t see them changing anything soon.
I thought AC preferred people who have completed post secondary, but it’s not necessarily required. Is that incorrect?
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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rudder wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:01 pm If you want to fly for AC, you need to tick the box for post secondary completed (2/3/4 year) notwithstanding the preferred hiring ratio with Jazz.

If you want to fly for a US Major (including cargo) you need to tick the box for an accredited 4 year degree.

Those are the rules circa 2021. I don’t see them changing anything soon.
Fair points (although as I understand it, AC's "requirement" is more of a strong preference). But OP's question isn't "Is post-secondary education worth it?", it's "Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?".

A pretty strong argument can be made for a backup plan, which can be supported by some sort of post-secondary education. But that education should emphatically NOT be in aviation -- otherwise it's not really a backup plan. The only aviation diploma that I think anyone should consider is one that is fully subsidized. Do they still exist? Even with a full subsidy, there can be arguments against taking a program (time requirements, for example, or the fact that it's really not providing you with a Plan B).
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

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scdriver wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:05 pm
rudder wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:01 pm Re: an aviation career (commercial pilot).

If you want to fly for AC, you need to tick the box for post secondary completed (2/3/4 year) notwithstanding the preferred hiring ratio with Jazz.

If you want to fly for a US Major (including cargo) you need to tick the box for an accredited 4 year degree.

Those are the rules circa 2021. I don’t see them changing anything soon.
I thought AC preferred people who have completed post secondary, but it’s not necessarily required. Is that incorrect?

No, not mandatory.

But AC uses a ‘points’ system. Completed post secondary has meaningful value in that system.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

Post by scdriver »

rudder wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:45 pm
scdriver wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:05 pm
rudder wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:01 pm Re: an aviation career (commercial pilot).

If you want to fly for AC, you need to tick the box for post secondary completed (2/3/4 year) notwithstanding the preferred hiring ratio with Jazz.

If you want to fly for a US Major (including cargo) you need to tick the box for an accredited 4 year degree.

Those are the rules circa 2021. I don’t see them changing anything soon.
I thought AC preferred people who have completed post secondary, but it’s not necessarily required. Is that incorrect?

No, not mandatory.

But AC uses a ‘points’ system. Completed post secondary has meaningful value in that system.
That makes sense. Sorry for the slight thread drift to other post secondary, but in the AC points system, how far does that degree get you? Is it equivalent to a certain number of additional hours or something like chief pilot experience? And also does the ability to tick that box carry more weight in terms of simply getting you an interview than it does for actually getting the job?
Cheers.
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Re: Is a Aviation Diploma Worth It?

Post by rudder »

scdriver wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:10 pm
rudder wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:45 pm
scdriver wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:05 pm

I thought AC preferred people who have completed post secondary, but it’s not necessarily required. Is that incorrect?

No, not mandatory.

But AC uses a ‘points’ system. Completed post secondary has meaningful value in that system.
That makes sense. Sorry for the slight thread drift to other post secondary, but in the AC points system, how far does that degree get you? Is it equivalent to a certain number of additional hours or something like chief pilot experience? And also does the ability to tick that box carry more weight in terms of simply getting you an interview than it does for actually getting the job?
Cheers.
Sorry, not part of the AC hiring system. Don’t know.

I believe that AC (and other potential Employers) see a completed post secondary education as an indication of academic aptitude, ability to assimilate information, and
achievement. It bodes well for a challenging PIT course.

Agree or disagree, it has weight. Remember, you are competing with others for a job offer. The employer sets the rules.
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