Competing Union

[ALPApolicy]

It’s going to bite the senior pilots at some point. Next time there is a vote on increasing senior pilots pay or getting more vacation, the junior pilots who were laid off or bumped down will not vote yes. Senior pilots got a win here but for the junior pilots I have talked to there will never be a yes vote for increasing senior pilot pay. Let’s be honest now all my friends who are junior at westket won’t be Capt for 13-15 years! Never mind pilots on layoff

Do you think there is going to be a vote on a single issue such as pay affecting senior pilots? Or do you think that any agreement that has an increase in pay in any way for senior pilots will get voted down?

[Mostly Harmless]

It’s going to bite the senior pilots at some point. Next time there is a vote on increasing senior pilots pay or getting more vacation, the junior pilots who were laid off or bumped down will not vote yes. Senior pilots got a win here but for the junior pilots I have talked to there will never be a yes vote for increasing senior pilot pay. Let’s be honest now all my friends who are junior at westket won’t be Capt for 13-15 years! Never mind pilots on layoff

That is, quite possibly, one of the dumbest things I have ever read. I think it gave me eye cancer just looking at it.

You, yes you, will... universe willing... be a senior pilot one day. So you are going to vote against making your own life better in the future because you didn't get your way now. That is the exact thought process of a small child having a tantrum over not getting their way. Perhaps you need a time out.

And for the record, 10+ years to the left seat has been the norm in Canada since the late 1970's... this is not new. Many people retired in the right seat after a long career. You got to live through the first growth spurt in 40 years of aviation in this country and it ended. There's nothing saying it won't come back but it might not as the previous 40 years have a statistical advantage. It's like you did no research at all on the industry you chose to make your career. Furthermore, you were born in the wrong country. Sorry to say it but you didn't win the birth lottery. You didn't lose the birth lottery either but you didn't win it. You live in Canada. A nation whose own government makes sure you are held prisoner inside it's loving borders because, if they actually let you leave the country to work elsewhere, the 2 (yes 2... that's it that's all) possible airlines you can work for would have to pay the going rate for pilots in the world and AC and WJ will not let that happen. So, you live in a land with very limited opportunity for even getting an airline job and even less opportunity to advance in that career. Now, there's more countries in this basket with us than there are with abundant opportunities but you have to recognize the field you are playing on. Had you been born in Europe or the US, you would be laughing all the way to the bank, but you weren't. Now, you can appreciate that you are in the privileged few to make it into an airline, appreciate that you make more than the average bear in this country and accept the virtue of patients to get to your ultimate goal, or you can stamp your feet and have a child like tantrum but it wont' change anything. I suggest you look at the long term and, just like flying, determine what you have to do now to be where you want to be in the future.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

It’s going to bite the senior pilots at some point. Next time there is a vote on increasing senior pilots pay or getting more vacation, the junior pilots who were laid off or bumped down will not vote yes. Senior pilots got a win here but for the junior pilots I have talked to there will never be a yes vote for increasing senior pilot pay. Let’s be honest now all my friends who are junior at westket won’t be Capt for 13-15 years! Never mind pilots on layoff

That is, quite possibly, one of the dumbest things I have ever read. I think it gave me eye cancer just looking at it.

You, yes you, will... universe willing... be a senior pilot one day. So you are going to vote against making your own life better in the future because you didn't get your way now. That is the exact thought process of a small child having a tantrum over not getting their way. Perhaps you need a time out.

And for the record, 10+ years to the left seat has been the norm in Canada since the late 1970's... this is not new. Many people retired in the right seat after a long career. You got to live through the first growth spurt in 40 years of aviation in this country and it ended. There's nothing saying it won't come back but it might not as the previous 40 years have a statistical advantage. It's like you did no research at all on the industry you chose to make your career. Furthermore, you were born in the wrong country. Sorry to say it but you didn't win the birth lottery. You didn't lose the birth lottery either but you didn't win it. You live in Canada. A nation whose own government makes sure you are held prisoner inside it's loving borders because, if they actually let you leave the country to work elsewhere, the 2 (yes 2... that's it that's all) possible airlines you can work for would have to pay the going rate for pilots in the world and AC and WJ will not let that happen. So, you live in a land with very limited opportunity for even getting an airline job and even less opportunity to advance in that career. Now, there's more countries in this basket with us than there are with abundant opportunities but you have to recognize the field you are playing on. Had you been born in Europe or the US, you would be laughing all the way to the bank, but you weren't. Now, you can appreciate that you are in the privileged few to make it into an airline, appreciate that you make more than the average bear in this country and accept the virtue of patients to get to your ultimate goal, or you can stamp your feet and have a child like tantrum but it wont' change anything. I suggest you look at the long term and, just like flying, determine what you have to do now to be where you want to be in the future.

Thats not the way management thinks. They take care of themselves now, and in the future. Its time pilots in Canada unite as one and start demanding proper WAWCON. Two words folks... PARK BRAKE. Actions speak louder than words.

[northofanything]

It’s going to bite the senior pilots at some point. Next time there is a vote on increasing senior pilots pay or getting more vacation, the junior pilots who were laid off or bumped down will not vote yes. Senior pilots got a win here but for the junior pilots I have talked to there will never be a yes vote for increasing senior pilot pay. Let’s be honest now all my friends who are junior at westket won’t be Capt for 13-15 years! Never mind pilots on layoff

That is, quite possibly, one of the dumbest things I have ever read. I think it gave me eye cancer just looking at it.

You, yes you, will... universe willing... be a senior pilot one day. So you are going to vote against making your own life better in the future because you didn't get your way now. That is the exact thought process of a small child having a tantrum over not getting their way. Perhaps you need a time out.

And for the record, 10+ years to the left seat has been the norm in Canada since the late 1970's... this is not new. Many people retired in the right seat after a long career. You got to live through the first growth spurt in 40 years of aviation in this country and it ended. There's nothing saying it won't come back but it might not as the previous 40 years have a statistical advantage. It's like you did no research at all on the industry you chose to make your career. Furthermore, you were born in the wrong country. Sorry to say it but you didn't win the birth lottery. You didn't lose the birth lottery either but you didn't win it. You live in Canada. A nation whose own government makes sure you are held prisoner inside it's loving borders because, if they actually let you leave the country to work elsewhere, the 2 (yes 2... that's it that's all) possible airlines you can work for would have to pay the going rate for pilots in the world and AC and WJ will not let that happen. So, you live in a land with very limited opportunity for even getting an airline job and even less opportunity to advance in that career. Now, there's more countries in this basket with us than there are with abundant opportunities but you have to recognize the field you are playing on. Had you been born in Europe or the US, you would be laughing all the way to the bank, but you weren't. Now, you can appreciate that you are in the privileged few to make it into an airline, appreciate that you make more than the average bear in this country and accept the virtue of patients to get to your ultimate goal, or you can stamp your feet and have a child like tantrum but it wont' change anything. I suggest you look at the long term and, just like flying, determine what you have to do now to be where you want to be in the future.

The sentiment that a large number of lower seniority pilots have toward to an isolated group of senior pilots is very real and must be considered if unity is to be rebuilt. A small group of pilots acting independently who have seniority numbers low enough to protect themselves from the ravages of the pandemic are giving the impression that they are in it for themselves only and are unwilling to stand up for their colleagues. Willing only to fight for increases for themselves and not even trying to work on increases for pilots hired after a certain date. A great deal of respect has been lost because of how low seniority pilots have been viewed and spoken about by this small isolated group of senior pilots during and after the failure of the last MOA. This loud minority needs to reconsider how their language is interpreted to others. No one is going to vote against making their life better in the future, that is a misinterpretation of what is happening. They may just not vote to make the senior pilots lives better at the expense of themselves. If this isolated group of senior pilots continue to view their colleagues as a less valuable low seniority group that can be bargained away this problem will only grow. The younger generation everywhere across all industries is tired of watching their futures being bargained away in exchange for deals cut by people nearing retirement. The only way forward and the only chance pilots have is unity. Therefore, it must be recognized that priority has not been given to lower seniority pilots and if they are not included this will cause problems.

Addendum:

Post was not meant to sound to way it may have come across, therefore edit. Apologies. Respect is always given by default to the most skilled and experienced aviators in Canada. The intention of this post was only meant to highlight a rift between groups that needs mending for everyone's benefit. In absolutely no way was this about a group as a hole, it was just referring to some bad apples giving a bad impression.

[Mostly Harmless]

Thats not the way management thinks. They take care of themselves now, and in the future. Its time pilots in Canada unite as one and start demanding proper WAWCON. Two words folks... PARK BRAKE. Actions speak louder than words.

I'll start here. You are correct and I agree with you. But that was not the original posted comment... it was, to paraphrase, Junior pilots will vote down any contract that gives senior pilots a better life, out of spite. We should be more like the executives and ask for ludicrous amounts of money because we deserve it... but it's everyone not just junior, middle or senior pilots.

In fact, the idea that we have to give something up to get something needs to go.

[ALPApolicy]

It’s going to bite the senior pilots at some point. Next time there is a vote on increasing senior pilots pay or getting more vacation, the junior pilots who were laid off or bumped down will not vote yes. Senior pilots got a win here but for the junior pilots I have talked to there will never be a yes vote for increasing senior pilot pay. Let’s be honest now all my friends who are junior at westket won’t be Capt for 13-15 years! Never mind pilots on layoff

That is, quite possibly, one of the dumbest things I have ever read. I think it gave me eye cancer just looking at it.

You, yes you, will... universe willing... be a senior pilot one day. So you are going to vote against making your own life better in the future because you didn't get your way now. That is the exact thought process of a small child having a tantrum over not getting their way. Perhaps you need a time out.

And for the record, 10+ years to the left seat has been the norm in Canada since the late 1970's... this is not new. Many people retired in the right seat after a long career. You got to live through the first growth spurt in 40 years of aviation in this country and it ended. There's nothing saying it won't come back but it might not as the previous 40 years have a statistical advantage. It's like you did no research at all on the industry you chose to make your career. Furthermore, you were born in the wrong country. Sorry to say it but you didn't win the birth lottery. You didn't lose the birth lottery either but you didn't win it. You live in Canada. A nation whose own government makes sure you are held prisoner inside it's loving borders because, if they actually let you leave the country to work elsewhere, the 2 (yes 2... that's it that's all) possible airlines you can work for would have to pay the going rate for pilots in the world and AC and WJ will not let that happen. So, you live in a land with very limited opportunity for even getting an airline job and even less opportunity to advance in that career. Now, there's more countries in this basket with us than there are with abundant opportunities but you have to recognize the field you are playing on. Had you been born in Europe or the US, you would be laughing all the way to the bank, but you weren't. Now, you can appreciate that you are in the privileged few to make it into an airline, appreciate that you make more than the average bear in this country and accept the virtue of patients to get to your ultimate goal, or you can stamp your feet and have a child like tantrum but it wont' change anything. I suggest you look at the long term and, just like flying, determine what you have to do now to be where you want to be in the future.

The sentiment that a large number of lower seniority pilots have toward to the senior pilots is very real and must be considered if unity is to be rebuilt. A group of pilots with seniority numbers low enough to protect themselves from the ravages of the pandemic are giving the impression that they are in it for themselves only and are unwilling to stand up for their colleagues. Willing only to fight for increases for themselves and not even trying to work on increases for pilots hired after a certain date. A great deal of respect has been lost because of how low seniority pilots have been viewed and spoken about by senior pilots during and after the failure of the last MOA. This is the reality like it or not. No one is going to vote against making their life better in the future, that is a misinterpretation of what is happening. They just are not going to vote to make the senior pilots lives better at the expense of themselves. It may be subtle but the company is getting younger and the voting power of senior pilots will only decrease. If the senior pilots continue to view their colleagues as a less valuable low seniority group that can be bargained away this problem will only grow. The younger generation is tired of watching their futures being bargained away in exchange for deals cut by people nearing retirement. The only way forward and the only chance pilots have is unity. Therefore, the senior pilot musts recognize what has happened and begin to listen to the concerns of the pilots that were affected most by the pandemic.

Cool story bro.

But seriously, boohoo. Cry me a f@cking river. If I could piss on your post, I mean physically place my urine on your post I would. I fully hope you focus all your anger towards those above you on the seniority list and make it your life’s mission to carry that resentment as far as you can. Go for it. Nobody cares how you or anyone else “feels”. Feelings are really popular these days, but not all of us give a hoot what yours are. Now, go find mom and get a great big hug and tell her, between blubbering tears, why life is so hard.

[Mostly Harmless]

The sentiment that a large number of lower seniority pilots have toward to the senior pilots is very real and must be considered if unity is to be rebuilt. A group of pilots with seniority numbers low enough to protect themselves from the ravages of the pandemic are giving the impression that they are in it for themselves only and are unwilling to stand up for their colleagues. Willing only to fight for increases for themselves and not even trying to work on increases for pilots hired after a certain date. A great deal of respect has been lost because of how low seniority pilots have been viewed and spoken about by senior pilots during and after the failure of the last MOA. This is the reality like it or not. No one is going to vote against making their life better in the future, that is a misinterpretation of what is happening. They just are not going to vote to make the senior pilots lives better at the expense of themselves. It may be subtle but the company is getting younger and the voting power of senior pilots will only decrease. If the senior pilots continue to view their colleagues as a less valuable low seniority group that can be bargained away this problem will only grow. The younger generation is tired of watching their futures being bargained away in exchange for deals cut by people nearing retirement. The only way forward and the only chance pilots have is unity. Therefore, the senior pilot musts recognize what has happened and begin to listen to the concerns of the pilots that were affected most by the pandemic.

I'm sorry but a large number of pilots need to start thinking with their IQ and not their EQ because emotion will never win the day. That's at all levels of seniority. Junior pilots need who feel they have been wronged by the senior pilots are equally responsible for building unity.

Junior pilots need to do some soul searching on the fact that what is good for senior and middle pilots is also good for them in the long term. I know the FTNG contract, as every place I have ever worked at had just put one of those in place when I started... my whole career. WJ under the WJPA did just that before I got in the door. Generally speaking though, we have done a reasonable job of sacrificing at the top to make life better at the bottom in the company. It's not perfect but it needs to be recognized.

Feeling you are on your own is just that, a feeling. It is not a fact. A fact is; the company could have laid a lot more of us off when this started and they didn't. A fact is; any gain I get is a gain even for people not on property yet, as long as I don't vote in a contract that reduces first year wages and working conditions.... like a freeze on your salary for the first 4 years you are with the company, for example.

Some, very vocal, senior pilots come off looking like asses. The message they are putting out is a valid one about how much they have sacrificed over the last year to keep junior pilots on the list and the lack of acknowledgement for that sacrifice from the junior pilots. The way they have put that message out comes across really, really badly. But that is not all senior pilots. So... maybe some people could (and some have) say thanks for taking a massive pay cut to keep me on property for an extra year. Nope... me, me, me, me.... It's all I hear anymore.

No one in their right mind would vote to make their own working conditions worse and as far as I know, no one has asked you or anyone else to do so. Oh wait, someone did... we had an MOA to make our wages worse to keep people on property and we said 'Yes' 3 times. Eventually the same self interest you are talking about at the bottom of the list became an issue at the top of the list, where you are probably older and have far less years to make up those lost wages. But hey, me, me, me, me.... never look at it from the other side of the argument.

Blah, blah blah, blah. My sympathy ran out with the younger generation getting screwed over speech. You are talking to a Gen X. An entire generation of people screwed first by the boomers and now by the millennials. You have zero clue what it is to be screwed over. Were you under 40 when you got your right seat in an airline? Were you under 35? Were you starting for the same wage as the guys started at in 1996? Did you have to spend 10+ years blowing your back out up north for a chance at a seat? Did you live through the era of Air Canada and Canadian hiring maybe 10 people a year... combined... not 10 each? Have you never been laid off before? Have you never had a set back in your career? Well... all of those middle and senior pilots have. A lot. It's upsetting but you will survive and you will thrive. As long as you don't go around looking to assign blame for what is the first pandemic in 100 years.

I am not advocating you eat the shit sandwich we ate but you could at least have the courtesy not to whine to me about how hard you have it. We've all had our trials, even if they are different trials. Maybe it's time you realized that life is challenging. Maybe it's time you realized that it isn't as bad as you think it is.

The only thing you got right is that the pilots need unity. To make this into an old vs young thing is simply a sign that you are being played by the company and your own emotions rather than keeping your eye on the goal. We all get ahead.

All you do is come off sounding as bad as the senior pilots you are complaining about. IE: an ass. It's like you have never experienced any hardship in your life and now that you are, the world is ending because it's you. Well buck up because we are all going through things right now.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

Thats not the way management thinks. They take care of themselves now, and in the future. Its time pilots in Canada unite as one and start demanding proper WAWCON. Two words folks... PARK BRAKE. Actions speak louder than words.

I'll start here. You are correct and I agree with you. But that was not the original posted comment... it was, to paraphrase, Junior pilots will vote down any contract that gives senior pilots a better life, out of spite. We should be more like the executives and ask for ludicrous amounts of money because we deserve it... but it's everyone not just junior, middle or senior pilots.

In fact, the idea that we have to give something up to get something needs to go.

+1

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

The sentiment that a large number of lower seniority pilots have toward to the senior pilots is very real and must be considered if unity is to be rebuilt. A group of pilots with seniority numbers low enough to protect themselves from the ravages of the pandemic are giving the impression that they are in it for themselves only and are unwilling to stand up for their colleagues. Willing only to fight for increases for themselves and not even trying to work on increases for pilots hired after a certain date. A great deal of respect has been lost because of how low seniority pilots have been viewed and spoken about by senior pilots during and after the failure of the last MOA. This is the reality like it or not. No one is going to vote against making their life better in the future, that is a misinterpretation of what is happening. They just are not going to vote to make the senior pilots lives better at the expense of themselves. It may be subtle but the company is getting younger and the voting power of senior pilots will only decrease. If the senior pilots continue to view their colleagues as a less valuable low seniority group that can be bargained away this problem will only grow. The younger generation is tired of watching their futures being bargained away in exchange for deals cut by people nearing retirement. The only way forward and the only chance pilots have is unity. Therefore, the senior pilot musts recognize what has happened and begin to listen to the concerns of the pilots that were affected most by the pandemic.

I'm sorry but a large number of pilots need to start thinking with their IQ and not their EQ because emotion will never win the day. That's at all levels of seniority. Junior pilots need who feel they have been wronged by the senior pilots are equally responsible for building unity.

Junior pilots who were hired into a mess are responsible for the mess?

[Mostly Harmless]

Junior pilots who were hired into a mess are responsible for the mess?

Junior pilots were hired into a mess, so senior pilots are responsible for the mess?

Two can play the stupid game if that's what you want.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Junior pilots who were hired into a mess are responsible for the mess?

Junior pilots were hired into a mess, so senior pilots are responsible for the mess?

Two can play the stupid game if that's what you want.

Let me put it this way... the ones who get hit most by these decisions are the ones who are also currently on layoff.

[Mostly Harmless]

Let me put it this way... the ones who get hit most by these decisions are the ones who are also currently on layoff.

Let me put it this way, who laid off those pilots?

1: The company?
2: The other pilots?

[Mostly Harmless]

Things to see, people to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwbeddZ9aKI

[ALPApolicy]

Things to see, people to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwbeddZ9aKI

That is perfect!

[co-joe]

...
And for the record, 10+ years to the left seat has been the norm in Canada since the late 1970's... this is not new. Many people retired in the right seat after a long career. You got to live through the first growth spurt in 40 years of aviation in this country and it ended. There's nothing saying it won't come back but it might not as the previous 40 years have a statistical advantage. It's like you did no research at all on the industry you chose to make your career. Furthermore, you were born in the wrong country. Sorry to say it but you didn't win the birth lottery. You didn't lose the birth lottery either but you didn't win it. You live in Canada. A nation whose own government makes sure you are held prisoner inside it's loving borders because, if they actually let you leave the country to work elsewhere, the 2 (yes 2... that's it that's all) possible airlines you can work for would have to pay the going rate for pilots in the world and AC and WJ will not let that happen. So, you live in a land with very limited opportunity for even getting an airline job and even less opportunity to advance in that career. Now, there's more countries in this basket with us than there are with abundant opportunities but you have to recognize the field you are playing on. Had you been born in Europe or the US, you would be laughing all the way to the bank, but you weren't. Now, you can appreciate that you are in the privileged few to make it into an airline, appreciate that you make more than the average bear in this country and accept the virtue of patients to get to your ultimate goal, or you can stamp your feet and have a child like tantrum but it wont' change anything. I suggest you look at the long term and, just like flying, determine what you have to do now to be where you want to be in the future.

Honestly one of the best things I've read here in a while. It's easy to lose sight of this one simple truth.

[cloak]

At some point one needs to free oneself from the past and its perceptions and move forward to both try new things and to allow others to do the same. Plus there may be other options, unifor for instance.

[accountant]

At some point one needs to free oneself from the past and its perceptions and move forward to both try new things and to allow others to do the same. Plus there may be other options, unifor for instance.

Unifor is as useful as tits on a donkey, or asking for a free alcoholic drink in economy class.

No point.

[acpaleaks]

At some point one needs to free oneself from the past and its perceptions and move forward to both try new things and to allow others to do the same. Plus there may be other options, unifor for instance.

Unifor is as useful as tits on a donkey, or asking for a free alcoholic drink in economy class.

No point.

As a member of ACPA, I'd personally take Unifor any day. Hell even CUPE would do a better job than the scared little donkeys we have running our association. ACPAs motto should be "Just Say Yes" or "How Can We Help?"

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

As a member of ACPA, I'd personally take Unifor any day. Hell even CUPE would do a better job than the scared little donkeys we have running our association. ACPAs motto should be "Just Say Yes" or "How Can We Help?"

Careful what you wish for...

ALPA Criticizes Cargojet, Unifor over Attempts to Weaken Aviation Safety Regulations

[acpaleaks]

As a member of ACPA, I'd personally take Unifor any day. Hell even CUPE would do a better job than the scared little donkeys we have running our association. ACPAs motto should be "Just Say Yes" or "How Can We Help?"

Careful what you wish for...

ALPA Criticizes Cargojet, Unifor over Attempts to Weaken Aviation Safety Regulations

Literally anything is better than the dumpster fire that is the yellow union known as ACPA.