Average flight time

[RickertsRed]

Hey guys,

How long was your average individual flight session?

I’m quite early into training (I’m barely over double digits in my logbook) and I’m averaging 1.0 to 1.2 on the hobbs per flight lesson. By the time we run-up, taxi, fly a bit, taxi back, I don’t feel it’s long enough. After running through the checklist, run-up, taxi, etc we’re only airborne for 0.5 - 0.7, which again, I don’t feel is enough.

I’ve mention this to him a couple times now and he assures me everything progressing nicely, my experience is coming along nicely and he can see improvement every flight so there’s no need to panic. I do feel slightly more confident every time I get in the plane, but still doesn’t feel long enough to me. I feel I could learn so much more with even 0.3 - 0.5 longer.

Soooo, what was your average flight time each time you went up?

[Gowyn]

I think everyone feels this way when they start.

Don't sweat it. Right now you're learning "new" good habits. Don't rush the startup checks, these are good habits to get in to. Learning your way through safe checklists, right now these are things you feel you need to do just to get into the air and fly. Wrong! There's a reason for each and everyone of those steps, try to learn and understand the rational behind each step. Plenty of videos online of guys missing something simple and getting into trouble once airborne.

Even that ground time "idling" counts as time in your log, it's still learning.

Even flying solo on a quick day I'm probably 0.2 start to takeoff on a good day and then 0.1 taxi and shutdown, again on a really quiet and not busy day.

As for air time, you're just starting out and 1-1.5hrs is plenty of time. There's a lot to learn and it can get frustrating. There will be great days when things "click" but there will also be days when nothing goes right and you'll be glad the flight is over. Those are the days when you get down, take a breath, debrief and think about what you did right, wrong, what would you do differently. It's amazing the number of times I've come down, sat and thought about what happened and then went "ahhh, I get it now!"

Just have fun and don't rush it

[PilotDAR]

Gowyn's post is right on the mark!

Don't rush it, and don't feel that you need to have a "typical" flight, relax and fly in the environment available to you. As your experience and licensing advances, you'll probably have the opportunity to make things more that way you would like them to be. For now, you kinda have to fit into the system.

It is certainly possible to saturate your instruction or practice, which wastes your training dollar. More than an hour of purposeful instruction, and you'll be saturated. I have experience being on the wrong side of this as an instructor. I was hired to travel across the country to give a new owner type training and a float rating. I had three days total scheduled to do it. It was wrong of me to think I could accomplish that, as he needed more training than I anticipated, so we did a lot of circuits to build his skills. As I was later told by a much more experienced instructor, after ten circuits his learning had plateaued. In hindsight, yup! I saturated his training, and it just frustrated him, though he tried.

My own flying, lots of quick flights: .1 air time, .2 "flight" time, my personal one flight record in my plane: 6.9 hours air time, and, as copilot in someone else's: 13.7 hours air time and without leaving the seat (Twin Otter). I've done hundreds of GA 3 and 4 hour flights, and the shine wears off that after a while - hence the .1's on a really nice early morning or evening, which I enjoy the most!

For now, just fly in the system normally available to you, it's been thought out for a while, and is generally the best way for you to learn. Your chance for long flights will come....

[photofly]

I’ll take a different view. The system has been thought out for a long time, but to make money for the flight school owner and not to benefit the student. I also think half an hour of air time per lesson is a waste of everyone’s time and money. Per flight - maybe, depending on what you’re learning. But there’s no reason why a lesson can’t have more than one flight.

0.5 air time from a flight of 1.0 is very poor. If that’s “checklist” time go over the lists and actions at home or during ground briefing. Video the startup and checklist sequence so you can review it at home. A regular 30 minutes of taxi time would indicate a poor choice of airport.

It’s your learning, your brain, and your wallet. If your instructor isn’t addressing your concerns he’s not doing his job properly. If you want longer flights you should be able to have them. Put your foot down and refuse to accept poor training.

[rookiepilot]

Depends on your capacity that day, and a good instructor will assess that in real time. If a mismatch, talk it over.

[digits_]

Some more accurate timings might help as well. 0.7 on a 1.0 hour flight could be 44 minutes air in 57 minutes flight, which is pretty good when starting out.

0.5 in 1.2 could be 27 minutes air in a 74 jour flight, which could be suspicious.

Longer flights won't necessarily help you progress faster. If the instructor listens to you and inceeases the flight time to 2 hours to please you, it's very likely you will extend your total flight time for your ppl. And then he might be accused of sloppy training or milking his students. Sometimes you just can't win.

[photofly]

If the instructor listens to you and inceeases the flight time to 2 hours to please you, it's very likely you will extend your total flight time for your ppl. And then he might be accused of sloppy training or milking his students. Sometimes you just can't win.

The OP said:

we’re only airborne for 0.5 - 0.7, which again, I don’t feel is enough.
....I feel I could learn so much more with even 0.3 - 0.5 longer.

Why are you writing about 2 hour flights?

[GoinVertical]

Are you at a well-established flight training unit with a set curriculum or a smaller operation? Have you seen the curriculum?

If you're following the curriculum, and accomplishing everything that should be accomplished on each flight, then it's a non-issue in my mind. Most larger FTUs have a set curriculum that works well, and if you are sticking to it I wouldn't worry.

It's been a while since I've done any primary flight instruction, but as I recall it was somewhere around 14 or 16 flights before solo and most accomplished this in 20 hours. That works out to 1.2 or so a flight, and I never had any issues with not enough time in the air when I was instructing.

Ask to see the PPL curriculum - you'll probably see that most of the early flights are pretty short and then once you get a little bit more advanced some of the flights will be 1.5's or 1.7's to accomplish a bit more while you're up there.

[digits_]

If the instructor listens to you and inceeases the flight time to 2 hours to please you, it's very likely you will extend your total flight time for your ppl. And then he might be accused of sloppy training or milking his students. Sometimes you just can't win.

The OP said:

we’re only airborne for 0.5 - 0.7, which again, I don’t feel is enough.
....I feel I could learn so much more with even 0.3 - 0.5 longer.

Why are you writing about 2 hour flights?

My apologies, 1.7 hour flights then (1.2 + 0.5).

[photofly]

My apologies, 1.7 hour flights then (1.2 + 0.5).

I think he's suggesting that an hour's air time would benefit him: flights that are currently 0.5 air time could be 0.5 longer, and flights that are 0.7 air time could be 0.3 longer. That would make the flight time 1.2 hours, on average. Not the unreasonable request you're implying.

[Bede]

I'm with the OP and Photofly on this one. There is no reason that most students cannot handle longer lessons. Like the OP said, 0.5-0.7 hours of being in the air is far too short. Assuming a flight to and from the practice area, this leaves probably 10-15 minutes of actual instruction. And we wonder why the average student needs 80 hours to get a PPL? It is rare that I have a PPL student with more the 60 hours of flight time. My average is probably 50-55 hrs. My record is a PPL flight test at 35 hours but that was an exceptional circumstance.

I try to have my lessons around 45-60 minutes long + time to practice area + ground time. This results in a typical flight of 1.5-1.7 hours. During this time, the student is covering around 2x-3x the material that the 1 hr lesson is covering, but the student is only flying(paying) for 50% more for the flight.

The syllabus I developed has the first few lessons as follows (see the whole thing at freepilotgroundschool.ca):
1) Ex 5-6 1 hr
2) Ex 7-9 1.5 hr
3) Ex 9s-12 1.7 hr
4) Ex 13-15 1.5 hr.
After that it's 16-18 until solo.

This syllabus may not work everyone, but I have had a lot of success with it. I've modified it over the years to focus on areas that manifest themselves later if weak (descents, slow flight, go around).

Like another poster mentioned, I challenge the OP to ask for the school's syllabus. I bet there isn't one. Certainly, an instructor shouldn't rush a student or skip over important information, but I've seen a lot of wasting of student's time and money.

I often review PTR's from students who transfer to our FTU. Sadly, there seems to be a lot of pooch screwing going on. Spending an entire flight covering only one lesson. Spending 10 flights on normal take-offs and landings AFTER solo. Dual XC with student right after solo. Complete waste of the student's money.

If I was an unscrupulous FTU owner, I'd encourage short flights. Margins at FTU's are really thin and the lower the flight:ground ratio, the more money I make. The student pays for everything, but the FTU only pays for fuel and maintenance on the flight portion.

Anyways, rant/self-congratulations over.

[photofly]

Assuming a flight to and from the practice area, this leaves probably 10-15 minutes of actual instruction.

On a side note, why can't you give instruction on the way to and from the "practice area"? Why do you need a practice "area" at all?

[rookiepilot]

Assuming a flight to and from the practice area, this leaves probably 10-15 minutes of actual instruction.

On a side note, why can't you give instruction on the way to and from the "practice area"? Why do you need a practice "area" at all?

The banks don’t want stall practice over top their towers?

[photofly]

There are lots of non-built up areas that aren't "the" practice area, and there's a lot of instruction that can properly take place over the top of bank towers.

[Bede]

I always provided instruction to/from the practice area. Navigation, emergencies, etc. Not everyone does though.

[photofly]

You can't do climbs, descents and turns on the way to somewhere you can work on some stalls? Later on get a little hood time, perhaps?

[rookiepilot]

There are lots of non-built up areas that aren't "the" practice area, and there's a lot of instruction that can properly take place over the top of bank towers.

Curious what you do if your engine quits anywhere north of those banks. I digress…

[photofly]

Hey you're the one who mentioned banks, and now being north of them. You tell us. Most of the banks I fly over have the harbour and CYTZ in sight at about 20° below the horizon, which is an easy glide. YMMV.

[digits_]

My apologies, 1.7 hour flights then (1.2 + 0.5).

I think he's suggesting that an hour's air time would benefit him: flights that are currently 0.5 air time could be 0.5 longer, and flights that are 0.7 air time could be 0.3 longer. That would make the flight time 1.2 hours, on average. Not the unreasonable request you're implying.

If it takes him 0.5 on the ground -for which there can be multiple reasons-, it likely means he is also concentrating for those 0.5 hours. 1.7 hours of concentration might not be best during the first few flights.

I don't think the total length (1.2) is the issue, but the discrepancy between ground and flight time. Without more info as to what causes that, just adding on more time might not be beneficial.

Then again, if he's paying and he wants to stay up more, go for it, but if his instructor is reluctant to do so, I doubt it would increase his efficiency.

I think it is highly unlikely the student gets 'milked' for ground time as suggested above by someone.

[trey kule]

The difference between 45 mins and 60 minutes of air time translates to about twice as much time to demonstrate and practice. ( after you adjust for transition and review times).
Plus it also increases the air time/ ground time ratio, to the student’s benefit.
Might even reduce the average ppl time to license…
I guess that might not be of interest to some instructors or FTUs.

On the other hand, there is the issue of student fatigue affecting learning.
I think excepting for x country flights, an hour air time is generally lots. Maybe a bit more if transition times are long.

And, while I am ranting….how is TC able to justify allowing Hobbs time to be used for flight time? Anybody ever see a test question that flight time is from the time the engine starts until it stops?

A state endorsed FTU ripoff of students. And with modern GPS tracking, nothing but that.

[the-minister31]

And, while I am ranting….how is TC able to justify allowing Hobbs time to be used for flight time? Anybody ever see a test question that flight time is from the time the engine starts until it stops?

CARS 101.01
flight time - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

HOBBS time is a fairly accurate representation of flight time, unless you spend more than 6 minutes from start to "moving under your own power"

[digits_]

And, while I am ranting….how is TC able to justify allowing Hobbs time to be used for flight time? Anybody ever see a test question that flight time is from the time the engine starts until it stops?

CARS 101.01
flight time - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

HOBBS time is a fairly accurate representation of flight time, unless you spend more than 6 minutes from start to "moving under your own power"

And if you are worried, you can roll forward as soon as the engine is running, park again, run the checks and then continue taxiing again. Then you are 100% legal

[photofly]

And, while I am ranting….how is TC able to justify allowing Hobbs time to be used for flight time? Anybody ever see a test question that flight time is from the time the engine starts until it stops?

CARS 101.01
flight time - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

HOBBS time is a fairly accurate representation of flight time, unless you spend more than 6 minutes from start to "moving under your own power"

And if you are worried, you can roll forward as soon as the engine is running, park again, run the checks and then continue taxiing again. Then you are 100% legal

Doesn't everyone do this? Just do a brake check as the first thing.

[digits_]

CARS 101.01
flight time - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

HOBBS time is a fairly accurate representation of flight time, unless you spend more than 6 minutes from start to "moving under your own power"

And if you are worried, you can roll forward as soon as the engine is running, park again, run the checks and then continue taxiing again. Then you are 100% legal

Doesn't everyone do this? Just do a brake check as the first thing.

If it was a joke, I missed it. But no, where I've flown it's common to set everything up, especially for IFR training, before you actually start moving. The brake check was commonly the first item on the taxi checklist, but most setup happened before that.

[scdriver]

Given how arbitrary it is to just move 6 inches and then do all your checks, I think a lot of (most?) people just log the time from engine start to stop. It’s not like anyone is gonna go through the effort of making sure you moved slightly to start the official clock.