Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
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Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
While the article reports a Yak-52, the photo clearly shows a Nanchang CJ-6.
Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
Wow, when your numbers up, your number is up. What a way to go. 
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RatherBeFlying
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Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/ ... lanaudiere
Google translate if you need to.
Basically one of the jump pilots arrived in his own plane. Sadly the 27 year old woman leaves behind a young child:
https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/ ... r-un-avion
Google translate if you need to.
Basically one of the jump pilots arrived in his own plane. Sadly the 27 year old woman leaves behind a young child:
https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/ ... r-un-avion
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bodyflyer2
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Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
The report has been released.
To save typing time, I'll just repost the summary that I wrote on a skydiving site. Just my interpretation, YMMV.
I think I'll ask in the General forum what other's view of the meaning or definition of "PPR" is -- as the TSB doesn't realize that pilots might have a very different view of how to interpret it, rightly or wrongly.
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http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... Q0052.html
Basically a communications breakdown and lack of clarity over safe procedures.
The person on the grass mower may have started moving next to the runway just after the Twin Otter landed, not realizing that another plane was about to land. The field is basically used only for skydiving, but occasionally a small plane will fly into the PPR (Prior Permission Required) airport. The person flying in there in his personal aircraft was one of the skydiving company's pilots, and when I jumped there years back I have seen one of the owners of the company fly in with their own little Cessna.
The person cutting the grass wasn't one of the usual grass cutters, and had done the task only a few times. The grass cutters had been informed they could cut grass when the Twin Otter was on the ground. The report didn't get into what else the person knew -- Whether they thought that ONLY the Twin Otter would be flying, or whether they knew that 'very occasionally there are other airplanes around -- it is a live runway -- so always keep your eyes peeled'.
The report I thought unfairly criticized the pilot for not getting prior permission to land. Yet he had gotten in communication with the Twin Otter to sequence their arrivals, so he had some permission from the current DZ traffic to land. The report seems to imply that PPR is something that one needs to get for every arrival, but isn't clear about it. However, the pilot had flown his own plane in and out of the strip a number of times, and I expect he thought he had standing permission to drop in. (I have also operated that way elsewhere, if the airport owner gave me standing permission to drop by.)
There is no mention in the report whether anyone was monitoring or usually monitors the air frequency on the ground. The grass cutter did not have a radio. Which of course would increase situational awareness.
My impression is that the grass cutters weren't well briefed or practiced on the airfield's procedures -- especially that there might occasionally be aircraft other than the Twin Otter. Lack of a radio (and one usable while running a noisy mower) certainly makes any ground activity next to a runway more dangerous.
To save typing time, I'll just repost the summary that I wrote on a skydiving site. Just my interpretation, YMMV.
I think I'll ask in the General forum what other's view of the meaning or definition of "PPR" is -- as the TSB doesn't realize that pilots might have a very different view of how to interpret it, rightly or wrongly.
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http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... Q0052.html
Basically a communications breakdown and lack of clarity over safe procedures.
The person on the grass mower may have started moving next to the runway just after the Twin Otter landed, not realizing that another plane was about to land. The field is basically used only for skydiving, but occasionally a small plane will fly into the PPR (Prior Permission Required) airport. The person flying in there in his personal aircraft was one of the skydiving company's pilots, and when I jumped there years back I have seen one of the owners of the company fly in with their own little Cessna.
The person cutting the grass wasn't one of the usual grass cutters, and had done the task only a few times. The grass cutters had been informed they could cut grass when the Twin Otter was on the ground. The report didn't get into what else the person knew -- Whether they thought that ONLY the Twin Otter would be flying, or whether they knew that 'very occasionally there are other airplanes around -- it is a live runway -- so always keep your eyes peeled'.
The report I thought unfairly criticized the pilot for not getting prior permission to land. Yet he had gotten in communication with the Twin Otter to sequence their arrivals, so he had some permission from the current DZ traffic to land. The report seems to imply that PPR is something that one needs to get for every arrival, but isn't clear about it. However, the pilot had flown his own plane in and out of the strip a number of times, and I expect he thought he had standing permission to drop in. (I have also operated that way elsewhere, if the airport owner gave me standing permission to drop by.)
There is no mention in the report whether anyone was monitoring or usually monitors the air frequency on the ground. The grass cutter did not have a radio. Which of course would increase situational awareness.
My impression is that the grass cutters weren't well briefed or practiced on the airfield's procedures -- especially that there might occasionally be aircraft other than the Twin Otter. Lack of a radio (and one usable while running a noisy mower) certainly makes any ground activity next to a runway more dangerous.
Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
The PPR factor seems a bit of a red herring in this accident. Even if the guy would have called the airport manager and got permission, I doubt the grass cutter would have been informed.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
Maybe this would have been a great time to do a low approach with a break before landing... Confirm runway is clear, make everyone aware of your presence, etc.
Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
Why?
If you were the pilot, then what would have compelled you to do a low approach?
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
Nothing would "compel" me to do it. Not even saying I would have thought to do it in this situation. Just pointing out that low approaches in fast aerobatic trainers make for a high visibility arrival. They're also a lot of fun to do.
This isn't a random airport that has movements all the time by random aircraft... It's a jump zone where likely the only plane that comes and goes all day is the jump plane. When it's on the ground, there's probably *nothing* moving. The Nanchang pilot would know that, as they were one of the jump pilots. Not to second guess the pilot though... I wasn't there, I don't know what factors came into play. Just thinking out loud and maybe the thought will come to mind if the situation comes up again.
Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
This is a good reminder of a very important thing that the pilot is responsible for....making sure the runway is clear prior to landing. There is no doubt that it can be made more difficult when someone at the side of a runway moves out onto the runway within 1 minute of your touchdown but it does show the hazards that can happen at an airfield. Most aircraft, including most taildraggers that I have flown, do allow the pilot to see the runway while on final approach. Or if it is a type requiring a curved final approach due to vis issues, one may have to do a quick scan prior to rolling out on final.
Speaking for myself, there is no doubt that there has been complacency on this issue and there are just as important things to be concerned about such as maintaining proper airspeed, but it does drive home one more hazard to have heightened concern about, more so at certain airfields.
Speaking for myself, there is no doubt that there has been complacency on this issue and there are just as important things to be concerned about such as maintaining proper airspeed, but it does drive home one more hazard to have heightened concern about, more so at certain airfields.
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bodyflyer2
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Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
A couple more comments:
Digits wrote: "The PPR factor seems a bit of a red herring in this accident. Even if the guy would have called the airport manager and got permission, I doubt the grass cutter would have been informed."
Agreed in terms of the accident itself, given that the grass cutter was NORDO so to speak. Although if the pilot had been warned by either the airport manager, or just by the Twin Otter pilot that the flying-in pilot did talk to, that grass cutting was possibly taking place near the runways, that could have helped. Still, the accident report's interpretation of PPR makes the pilot appear more to blame than whatever his real responsibility was.
Airframe wrote: "This isn't a random airport that has movements all the time by random aircraft... It's a jump zone where likely the only plane that comes and goes all day is the jump plane. When it's on the ground, there's probably *nothing* moving."
True. Obviously having the extra aircraft fly in messed things up. (Something the airfield operators could have considered -- I know that the airfield has occasionally had other non jump aircraft fly in there.) Still, when the jump aircraft is landing, there may still be some slower or higher opening canopies still in the air (like tandems or wingsuit jumpers or students). Which might also dissuade another pilot flying in, from creating any extra potential for conflict, by adding a low pass prior to a landing approach. Although in this case it could have helped.
Certainly the airfield operators did poorly when it came to having safe procedures for the grass cutters.
Digits wrote: "The PPR factor seems a bit of a red herring in this accident. Even if the guy would have called the airport manager and got permission, I doubt the grass cutter would have been informed."
Agreed in terms of the accident itself, given that the grass cutter was NORDO so to speak. Although if the pilot had been warned by either the airport manager, or just by the Twin Otter pilot that the flying-in pilot did talk to, that grass cutting was possibly taking place near the runways, that could have helped. Still, the accident report's interpretation of PPR makes the pilot appear more to blame than whatever his real responsibility was.
Airframe wrote: "This isn't a random airport that has movements all the time by random aircraft... It's a jump zone where likely the only plane that comes and goes all day is the jump plane. When it's on the ground, there's probably *nothing* moving."
True. Obviously having the extra aircraft fly in messed things up. (Something the airfield operators could have considered -- I know that the airfield has occasionally had other non jump aircraft fly in there.) Still, when the jump aircraft is landing, there may still be some slower or higher opening canopies still in the air (like tandems or wingsuit jumpers or students). Which might also dissuade another pilot flying in, from creating any extra potential for conflict, by adding a low pass prior to a landing approach. Although in this case it could have helped.
Certainly the airfield operators did poorly when it came to having safe procedures for the grass cutters.
Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
Yes, exactly. When I was skydiving we occasionally raced the jump plane back to the field (we didn't always win). So it was certainly possible that there would be canopies in the air after the jump plane was down. But the Nanchang pilot did know this, he was apparently also a jump pilot. I can totally see that a non-pilot skydiver riding a mower for the day might not think to look for a plane when the only one they interact with is already parked.bodyflyer2 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:58 amAirframe wrote: "This isn't a random airport that has movements all the time by random aircraft... It's a jump zone where likely the only plane that comes and goes all day is the jump plane. When it's on the ground, there's probably *nothing* moving."
True. Obviously having the extra aircraft fly in messed things up. (Something the airfield operators could have considered -- I know that the airfield has occasionally had other non jump aircraft fly in there.) Still, when the jump aircraft is landing, there may still be some slower or higher opening canopies still in the air (like tandems or wingsuit jumpers or students). Which might also dissuade another pilot flying in, from creating any extra potential for conflict, by adding a low pass prior to a landing approach. Although in this case it could have helped.
Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
Happened again......
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/music/celebri ... 5119f&ei=9
A lot of us at a local club do grass cutting of the runway. My preference is for the sides to be done while mowing downwind and mow into wind when closer to the center of the runway.
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/music/celebri ... 5119f&ei=9
A lot of us at a local club do grass cutting of the runway. My preference is for the sides to be done while mowing downwind and mow into wind when closer to the center of the runway.
Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
Does the slow moving sign law apply at airports?
The shiny fluorescent sign is recognizable to any driver (is on the driver’s test), which includes pilots. The groundspeed typically when approaching grass runways is usually in the general range of how quickly motor vehicles approach slow equipment on the roads.
It has become illegal now to have sign misuse (in order not to diminish their effectiveness) , such as on mailboxes. When the sign is on display it must always be for the purpose intended so it always signals the same awareness to take heed of the slow moving vehicle up ahead. Any faded sign is refurbishable with the replacement fluorescent tape-on triangle available at any hardware store. Associating that with flashers is the best.
The shiny fluorescent sign is recognizable to any driver (is on the driver’s test), which includes pilots. The groundspeed typically when approaching grass runways is usually in the general range of how quickly motor vehicles approach slow equipment on the roads.
It has become illegal now to have sign misuse (in order not to diminish their effectiveness) , such as on mailboxes. When the sign is on display it must always be for the purpose intended so it always signals the same awareness to take heed of the slow moving vehicle up ahead. Any faded sign is refurbishable with the replacement fluorescent tape-on triangle available at any hardware store. Associating that with flashers is the best.
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Redneck_pilot86
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Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
No, why would it? ALL vehicles at airports are meant to be slow moving. The Slow moving vehicle laws come from provincial highways acts, not the CARs.
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"
Re: Grass cutter killed by Yak in Quebec
In the case of the grass strip tragedies above, it looks like the pilots did not see the mowers. They must have blended into the background somehow.
