Logging float hours (yes I've searched, but I can't find it)

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:44 pm

OK, here's the scenario.

My friend "Joe Blow" knows a guy with a 172 on floats. The owner has a PPL. Joe has a float rating and a CPL., and goes bombing around with his buddy all summer for 200 hours. None is PIC for Joe. Joe is not getting paid. Joe is just sitting right seat in a privately owned 172 float plane. He just marks in his log book that he was a passenger for 200 hours on floats. He knows this is totally unloggable for an ATPL, or total time or anything.

Can Joe, in the eyes of the insurance companies say he has 200 hours dual on floats, and land a job meeting an operator's 200 hours on floats insurance requirement?

-Joe, uh, istp

klimman123 · Post by **klimman123** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:38 pm

If Joe can swing it why not. But I don't think so.

coffeebreak · Post by **coffeebreak** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:51 pm

joe,
i am willing to bet some on this forum are going to tear into you but this is worth discussing given the state of the industry these days. a guy spends $30,000 on a licence and can't get a start to save their life and the bills start rolling in. it's such a rotten gig to get started flying floats the way insurance is these days that it might be tempting for a young guy to log questionable hours or push the boundaries of acceptability just to get their foot in the door.
with out moral judgement, here are some thoughts....

if you say you have flown those hours and you might be able to pull it off BUT you should consider a couple things:
1) if you logged two hundred hours dual floats it will give the impression that you still flew the thing even though someone else was captain, so people will have the expectation that you can handle whatever plane with the skills that you would expect from a 200 hour float pilot. so if you do add that experience to your resume be sure you can walk the walk.
2) if you get your hours passed the operator and get hired and have an incident and it goes through insurance and they scrutinize your hours at all i would guess the insurance would be void and the operator would be stuck with the damage and any liability, which you can bet would spell the end of your short career.
3) you may be put in a position that you can not handle because you haven't really logged those hours so you may be really risking your life and your passengers and the whole operation if something happens and there is a lawsuit.(you might be shoved off the dock in bad weather or with a load that you don't know to reject)

i really would be cautious when it comes to your hours. i know it is a major pain to get going but the risks are really high and you are really gambling everything. i would say just get a dock job and just accept a year of horrible hard labour and then you will be able to sleep easy and not have to worry about being exposed as what some might call a fraud. not trying to be harsh or judgemental, joe, i am sure others will weigh in and take care of that and rip you a new *blank*.

dangerous · Post by **dangerous** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:50 pm

Joe can't say he has 200 hours on floats because someone with a PPL can't give dual instruction, and Joe was not PIC. Therefore he can't log any time. He can say he has 200 hours as a passenger on floats. However the insurance companies would likely consider that in the same way they consider my 200 hours as a passenger on an A320! Best of luck, but it probably won't work.

zero · Post by **zero** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:58 pm

Jesus man, get some experience!!! Are you crazy...sorry...rant over

As I've said before, the first thing they'll teach you at a float op is how to overload a(your) floatplane, the second thing they'll teach you is how to get it off the water. Without any experience to begin with you'll be down the road before the blackflies, mosquitoes and no-see-ums have got a whiff of your size 12 asshole with the CP's boot impaled in it. By then the hiring is done for the season and you're out of a job, and you may be blackballed for following seasons. If you're honest about your float experience you may get a dock job or better and have a great future in the best type of flying out there.

Just re-read the question and don't think the experience you got qualifies as dual time, sitting in the right seat and your buddy not being a CPL or instructor...but I could be wrong.

lowandslow · Post by **lowandslow** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:25 pm

"As I've said before, the first thing they'll teach you at a float op is how to overload a(your) floatplane"
actually the first thing they teach you (or the few remaining "old boys" should teach you) is how to operate safely and professionally.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:32 pm

Don't get me wrong, folks.

In my aforementioned scenario existed, Joe would be above board all the way. If an employer asked, "Do you know how to tie a knot? Fly a plane? Handle glassy water? etc." Joe would say, "Are you an idiot? Look in my log book! I have 200 hours of passenger time! I have a 7 hour float rating! I don't know shit!"

The real question is, do INSURANCE COMPANIES count it as enough time to be INSURED?

Any owners or CPs wanna comment? You know for sure.

I appreciate the guesses and advice anyways, well Joe does.

-istp

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:57 pm

istp :

The answer to your question is no, the insurance companies will want you to have had legally loggable time and a private pilot can not give instruction that would satisfy an insurance company.

However even if you did not actually physically fly the airplane it was experience that should have taught you something...it is the something that you may have learned that is critical.

In otherwords if the guy you were flying with was safe and made good decisions it was worth while but if he was unsafe and made dumb decisions you have learned what not to do, hopefully.

When the time comes for an interview with a prospecticve employer you should include the 200 hours of flying only as an afterthought and point out it was observing or whatever you did..

Cat

coffeebreak · Post by **coffeebreak** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:03 pm

joe,
i was thinking about who could give you an absolute answer and i think your best bet is to call a couple insurance companies and just ask them.

here is a Marsh insurance company rep
William S. James
Canada (Calgary)
1 (403) 266-9876
William.S.James@marsh.com

or AIM insurance 905-830-0119

they will be the ones who know the technicalities of this stuff.

good luck, joe. it is a pain in the nuts to get rolling(or floating) in this game for sure so if these guys don't tell you what you want to hear don't let it slow you down.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:09 pm

Thanks, folks!

Joe Blow will be very happy. Any other commercial airplane insurance contacts will be greatly appreciated.

-istp

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:48 pm

Zero, I don't know where you started but where I started was on a 185 right out of college. The Chief Pilot sat me down and said "there are 3 things I never want to see this airplane doing".

"I don't ever want to see it flying overloaded"
"I don't ever want it flying in bad weather"
"I don't ever want to see in taking off downwind"

I did what I was told and 6 weeks later I was checked out on the Beaver and that fall I was checked out on the Twin Beech. I never looked back!!

His rational was, just because you see the other guys doing this shit, remember they have been flying for years and know the area so well they can navigate by pine cones. Doesn't mean you can or need to prove that you can. It was the best advice I ever got!!

As for the original post, no the time can not be logged. Hell, I got lots of time in a DC-10 jump seat, do you think the insurance company would accept that.

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:51 pm

CLguy wrote: I did what I was told and 6 weeks later I was checked out on the Beaver and that fall I was checked out on the Twin Beech. I never looked back!!
.

The good old days. Damm i wish it was still like that.

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:08 pm

CLguy wrote:"I don't ever want to see it flying overloaded"
"I don't ever want it flying in bad weather"
"I don't ever want to see in taking off downwind"

... i think my computer is broken... it's giving me everything backwards...i don't get it...

Pinocchio · Post by **Pinocchio** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:58 pm

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:14 am

Water wings - LOL

Edo - they truly were the Good Ol' Days

Pinnochio - If your friends name shows up in the Journey Log then it would count. No doubt a gray area but since the owner had lost his licence one has to assume your pal was listed as PIC.

The one concern I would have if I was your pal is what the expectations of a CP would be during a checkride. Any good CP can pretty much tell the quality of the pilot just by how he starts the engine and handles himself in the cockpit even before they begin to taxi. The CP may expect a stronger pilot just by judging the hours in his log book and may be disappointed when your pal flies the aircraft like a real rookie.

Probably the best thing would is to be upfront and explain how the hours were logged. The operation may not care how he got the hours as long as he has them and it satifies the insurance company. This way the CP will know what to expect. Just a thought!

Pinocchio · Post by **Pinocchio** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:56 am