Floatplane Crash Thread

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pelmet
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Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by pelmet »

A lot of them don't get mentioned on this forum but there can be some ones with a bit more detail such as this one showing the takeoff technique use. Unfortunately, not enough info to let the reader know why the crash happened..

"C-FFUE, a privately registered Bushcaddy R80 floatplane, was conducting local flights from the
Orillia/Lake St John Seaplane Base (CNV6), Ontario. After landing in a sheltered bay, the pilot
taxied the aircraft into the main part of the lake to conduct a takeoff into wind. After applying power,
and with the aircraft on the step, the pilot raised the right float, a technique used to facilitate a
shorter takeoff run. As the right float came out of the water, the pilot lost directional control and the
aircraft turned abruptly to the left, where the left wing struck the water as the pilot brought the
throttle to idle. As the aircraft returned to a level attitude, the right float impacted the water and
became detached from the aircraft. The pilot and passenger egressed from the left side of the
aircraft and entered the water. They were rescued a short time later by nearby boaters. There were
no injuries. The aircraft came to rest upside down in the water and was eventually towed to shore."


Any tips from anybody about this technique and difficulties that could arise?
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scdriver
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by scdriver »

Some guys like to raise the upwind float outta the water which leaves you more vulnerable to gusts that could cause the downwind wing to contact the water, personally I like getting the downwind float out first. Stay coordinated when that float comes up, and don’t increase drag unnecessarily by inputting aileron too early if it’s not needed for xwind.
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pelmet
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by pelmet »

scdriver wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:47 pm Some guys like to raise the upwind float outta the water which leaves you more vulnerable to gusts that could cause the downwind wing to contact the water, personally I like getting the downwind float out first. Stay coordinated when that float comes up, and don’t increase drag unnecessarily by inputting aileron too early if it’s not needed for xwind.
Is there an advantage to lifting the upwind float?
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pelmet
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by pelmet »

C-FSQQ, a privately registered Backcountry Super Cubs LLC Mackey SQ2 with amphibious floats,
was conducting a takeoff from Long Lake ON. with the pilot and one passenger on board. As the
aircraft climbed above the height of the trees adjacent to the lake, approximately 40 feet above the
water, the left wing dropped abruptly and the aircraft entered a steep descent and impacted the
water nose first. The occupants exited the aircraft after it overturned and were soon picked up by
local boaters. There were no injuries. The aircraft was significantly damaged.
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scdriver
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by scdriver »

pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:18 pm
scdriver wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:47 pm Some guys like to raise the upwind float outta the water which leaves you more vulnerable to gusts that could cause the downwind wing to contact the water, personally I like getting the downwind float out first. Stay coordinated when that float comes up, and don’t increase drag unnecessarily by inputting aileron too early if it’s not needed for xwind.
Is there an advantage to lifting the upwind float?
If you have a crosswind it can be easier to get it out of the water, but no apart from that
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

scdriver wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:19 pm
pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:18 pm
scdriver wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:47 pm Some guys like to raise the upwind float outta the water which leaves you more vulnerable to gusts that could cause the downwind wing to contact the water, personally I like getting the downwind float out first. Stay coordinated when that float comes up, and don’t increase drag unnecessarily by inputting aileron too early if it’s not needed for xwind.
Is there an advantage to lifting the upwind float?
If you have a crosswind it can be easier to get it out of the water, but no apart from that
There are many operational reasons to lift the downwind wing/float (although not recommended) rising terrain, take offs from small narrow rivers, etc…

TPC
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by scdriver »

TeePeeCreeper wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:22 pm
scdriver wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:19 pm
pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:18 pm

Is there an advantage to lifting the upwind float?
If you have a crosswind it can be easier to get it out of the water, but no apart from that
There are many operational reasons to lift the downwind wing/float (although not recommended) rising terrain, take offs from small narrow rivers, etc…

TPC
There may be a bit of confusion. I'm talking exclusively with a crosswind, where with correct xwind inputs the downwind float will come up first, but some people like to use incorrect inputs to get the upwind float out first. The reasons for rolling a float in general are exactly what you say. I'd say I roll a float on about 50% of takeoffs. Depends what airplane along with other operational considerations
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by PilotDAR »

On a couple of rare, and memorable occasions, I've had to roll the upwind float out, to assure that I started a turn toward an acceptable departure path (turn toward lower terrain). It was a much more demanding liftoff, and much less confident, but in each case, there was no other practical choice for departure.

The wind conditions you are experiencing on the water may be different from those to expect during climbout in "terrain". Downdrafts coming toward you from rising terrain may pose a less safe, and longer term hazard, than managing a less ideal takeoff, to position yourself for a much more safe departure.

Otherwise, the much more safe technique is to lift the downwind float out. If you can get the downwind float out, its pretty certain that you can complete the takeoff, and should continue with that expectation. In calm conditions, with a heavy load, or in a very gentle swell with no waves, it may not be possible to get even one float out, in which case, the takeoff attempt should probably be abandoned, before the engine is overheated.
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pelmet
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by pelmet »

scdriver wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:22 pm
TeePeeCreeper wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:22 pm
scdriver wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:19 pm

If you have a crosswind it can be easier to get it out of the water, but no apart from that
There are many operational reasons to lift the downwind wing/float (although not recommended) rising terrain, take offs from small narrow rivers, etc…

TPC
There may be a bit of confusion. I'm talking exclusively with a crosswind, where with correct xwind inputs the downwind float will come up first, but some people like to use incorrect inputs to get the upwind float out first. The reasons for rolling a float in general are exactly what you say. I'd say I roll a float on about 50% of takeoffs. Depends what airplane along with other operational considerations
scdriver wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:22 pm
TeePeeCreeper wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:22 pm
scdriver wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:19 pm

If you have a crosswind it can be easier to get it out of the water, but no apart from that
There are many operational reasons to lift the downwind wing/float (although not recommended) rising terrain, take offs from small narrow rivers, etc…

TPC
There may be a bit of confusion. I'm talking exclusively with a crosswind, where with correct xwind inputs the downwind float will come up first, but some people like to use incorrect inputs to get the upwind float out first. The reasons for rolling a float in general are exactly what you say. I'd say I roll a float on about 50% of takeoffs. Depends what airplane along with other operational considerations
Thanks guys,

I really appreciate the info from the experienced float drivers. It sounds like TPC and DAR have done this sort of thing for operational reasons when there were overriding safety factors that took precedence.

On the other hand, it sounds like SCdriver is pointing out that some pilots lift the upwind float not due to other safety factors taking precedence but simply because it is easier to do so due to the wind assist in raising the wing but with the increased hazard of the downwind wing striking the water.
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by valleyboy »

Like a few others here I started my aviation career flying floats and skis and did it for several years. Wheels were just to get the aircraft to the hanger for changeover in the spring. No breaks, 2500 foot strip and no one thought anything of it.

There were some basic things that you got you ass kicked for by you mentors, pilots twice your age and flew floats and skis forever. Gone are those days. Some of the things we took for granted as a "no-no" seem to have become a common practice today.

I sit on my deck and watch guys lift that upwind wing all the time, maybe the same guy -- haha -- but that was strictly consider a "rookie" mistake in my day and you would hear about it. Lift the the downwind float was common but you do not need to exaggerate, cpl inches out of the water and away you go.

Narrow lakes or lake chains one would lift a float to complete t/o runs requiring step turns if the turn exceeded a certain angle, joys of moving mining camps, today I suspect a helicopter would be used but unless it was crazy gusty it wasn't that challenging.

The other strictly forbidden move was to use not much more that normal slow taxi engine rpm (around 1000-1200) trying to turn downwind. If you could not finesse it downwind you sailed.

The other thing we did was land with cruise RPM on the prop if we were going to step taxi at all, also landing in a big lake and doing a step turn into a bay where the docks were was also frowned upon as a c'boy move.

Get the basics and all this is nothing more than skill and airman-ship. The same thought process should follow you around no matter what you are flying and the type of gear under the aircraft doesn't matter.

You need to learn how to read the water and evaluate ice conditions when water turns solid that's the skill in float and ski flying. The rest is about airman-ship and common sense.

Know the/your limitations and all should be good.
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by beaverbob »

pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:18 pm
scdriver wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:47 pm Some guys like to raise the upwind float outta the water which leaves you more vulnerable to gusts that could cause the downwind wing to contact the water, personally I like getting the downwind float out first. Stay coordinated when that float comes up, and don’t increase drag unnecessarily by inputting aileron too early if it’s not needed for xwind.
Is there an advantage to lifting the upwind float?

Only if you want to wash the downwind wing tip.
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by Lotro »

I'm a LOW time float pilot, and I've had some good training including lifting a float to facilitate getting off the water more quickly when heavier, or glassy water or in other conditions. I've also spent about half my life sitting beside capable floatplane pilots and have witnessed various forms of this technique executed well on different airframes by different people.

I'm not an expert, but I have some experience.

There's a bit of a gotcha in the training however: Yes, lift the downwind wing/float first. Yes, always lift the right float. I don't think I've ever seen anyone lift the left float. The topic of lifting the right float was covered at a COPA safety seminar earlier this year, the specifics of which are vague to me right now.

Anyways, the gotcha is that if you lift the right float on a day when that happens to be the upwind float, your wing may touch the water and you will be upset.

I will now go back and ask my instructor why we "always" lift the right float, because I'm not certain I remember, but I am guilty of this mental binding.
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by pelmet »

Thanks guys. This thread has brought up some good info that could be very useful for floatplane pilots(and the forum is much improved these days). Here is another recent accident in glassy water conditions. I have heard two stories this year about near accidents in my area due to this phenomenon. Any tips from the experienced guys(or new guys is greatly appreciated - gotcha's to watch out for - lessons learned, etc).....

C-GDPL, a privately registered, amateur-built Savanah VG XL on amphibious floats, was on the
second leg of a return VFR flight plan to Nanaimo (CYCD), BC with the pilot and 1 passenger on
board. The aircraft departed Gillies Bay (CYGB), BC with the next stop being Princess Louisa Inlet
(50° 11’ 42” N, 123° 46’ 27” W). The pilot confirmed that the landing gear was in the up position
and selected a landing site approximately 1⁄2 NM from the dock at the east end of the inlet. The
conditions at the time were reported to be no wind and glassy water. The aircraft landed and nosed
over coming to rest inverted in the inlet. The landing gear strut connection points on the fuselage
showed buckling and the connecting bolts in the floats were ripped loose. The pilot and passenger
egressed, inflated their personal flotation devices and were quickly pulled from the water and taken
to the dock by nearby boaters. A nurse from a nearby lodge attended and determined the pilot and
passenger had not been injured. The aircraft was towed to and secured at the dock. The signal
from the 406 MHz emergency locator transmitter was relayed to the Joint Rescue Coordination
Centre – Pacific.
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by Blowin' In The Wind »

I’m certainly not the highest time float pilot in this conversation, but it would seem to me that intentionally lifting the upwind float on a crosswind takeoff is a recipe to bend things.
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by peterdillon »

Have to agree with you on only lifting the downwind side. Put a lot of hours on a 185 on those long 2960's and heavily loaded it was the way we always took off to avoid dragging the heels. Lifting a float really made a difference in the takeoff run on that combination. Not much benefit on a Cub or a Beaver as far as takeoff distance. As Valley Boy said your only talking about lifting it out a couple of inches so with the other float on the step the wing only needs to come up a foot or so. Never heard of anybody lifting the upwind side till this thread. In a heavy crosswind in say a river I always lift one and intentionally let it build a we bit of airspeed on the upwind float before lifting off to allow for gusts or downdrafts etc.
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by scdriver »

pelmet wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:16 am Thanks guys. This thread has brought up some good info that could be very useful for floatplane pilots(and the forum is much improved these days). Here is another recent accident in glassy water conditions. I have heard two stories this year about near accidents in my area due to this phenomenon. Any tips from the experienced guys(or new guys is greatly appreciated - gotcha's to watch out for - lessons learned, etc).....

C-GDPL, a privately registered, amateur-built Savanah VG XL on amphibious floats, was on the
second leg of a return VFR flight plan to Nanaimo (CYCD), BC with the pilot and 1 passenger on
board. The aircraft departed Gillies Bay (CYGB), BC with the next stop being Princess Louisa Inlet
(50° 11’ 42” N, 123° 46’ 27” W). The pilot confirmed that the landing gear was in the up position
and selected a landing site approximately 1⁄2 NM from the dock at the east end of the inlet. The
conditions at the time were reported to be no wind and glassy water. The aircraft landed and nosed
over coming to rest inverted in the inlet. The landing gear strut connection points on the fuselage
showed buckling and the connecting bolts in the floats were ripped loose. The pilot and passenger
egressed, inflated their personal flotation devices and were quickly pulled from the water and taken
to the dock by nearby boaters. A nurse from a nearby lodge attended and determined the pilot and
passenger had not been injured. The aircraft was towed to and secured at the dock. The signal
from the 406 MHz emergency locator transmitter was relayed to the Joint Rescue Coordination
Centre – Pacific.
Places like Princess Louisa can be tricky because there are no options once you get to a certain point. You’re committed, no going around. Anywhere that’s a dead end like that you need to give yourself lots of room, as in be set up 500 or below at least a couple of miles before the end and get yourself in a stable glassy water decent from 300 by a mile/mile and a half out. Unless there’s visible movement on the water in these kinda places I always land early and step taxi in, even if it’s a 2 min step taxi, it’s better than driving into a mountain or panicking because you see the mountain coming and you’re not on the water, and yanking the power. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if that was the case here.
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by scdriver »

Lotro wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:38 am I'm a LOW time float pilot, and I've had some good training including lifting a float to facilitate getting off the water more quickly when heavier, or glassy water or in other conditions. I've also spent about half my life sitting beside capable floatplane pilots and have witnessed various forms of this technique executed well on different airframes by different people.

I'm not an expert, but I have some experience.

There's a bit of a gotcha in the training however: Yes, lift the downwind wing/float first. Yes, always lift the right float. I don't think I've ever seen anyone lift the left float. The topic of lifting the right float was covered at a COPA safety seminar earlier this year, the specifics of which are vague to me right now.

Anyways, the gotcha is that if you lift the right float on a day when that happens to be the upwind float, your wing may touch the water and you will be upset.

I will now go back and ask my instructor why we "always" lift the right float, because I'm not certain I remember, but I am guilty of this mental binding.
That’s new to me, I lift the left float all the time and I’ve never known someone who won’t. I’d certainly be interested to know what you’re instructors reasoning behind that is.
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pelmet
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by pelmet »

scdriver wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:14 pm
Lotro wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:38 am I'm a LOW time float pilot, and I've had some good training including lifting a float to facilitate getting off the water more quickly when heavier, or glassy water or in other conditions. I've also spent about half my life sitting beside capable floatplane pilots and have witnessed various forms of this technique executed well on different airframes by different people.

I'm not an expert, but I have some experience.

There's a bit of a gotcha in the training however: Yes, lift the downwind wing/float first. Yes, always lift the right float. I don't think I've ever seen anyone lift the left float. The topic of lifting the right float was covered at a COPA safety seminar earlier this year, the specifics of which are vague to me right now.

Anyways, the gotcha is that if you lift the right float on a day when that happens to be the upwind float, your wing may touch the water and you will be upset.

I will now go back and ask my instructor why we "always" lift the right float, because I'm not certain I remember, but I am guilty of this mental binding.
That’s new to me, I lift the left float all the time and I’ve never known someone who won’t. I’d certainly be interested to know what you’re instructors reasoning behind that is.
But which one do you lift when there is no crosswind component/other influencing factors.
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by scdriver »

pelmet wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:03 am
scdriver wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:14 pm
Lotro wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:38 am I'm a LOW time float pilot, and I've had some good training including lifting a float to facilitate getting off the water more quickly when heavier, or glassy water or in other conditions. I've also spent about half my life sitting beside capable floatplane pilots and have witnessed various forms of this technique executed well on different airframes by different people.

I'm not an expert, but I have some experience.

There's a bit of a gotcha in the training however: Yes, lift the downwind wing/float first. Yes, always lift the right float. I don't think I've ever seen anyone lift the left float. The topic of lifting the right float was covered at a COPA safety seminar earlier this year, the specifics of which are vague to me right now.

Anyways, the gotcha is that if you lift the right float on a day when that happens to be the upwind float, your wing may touch the water and you will be upset.

I will now go back and ask my instructor why we "always" lift the right float, because I'm not certain I remember, but I am guilty of this mental binding.
That’s new to me, I lift the left float all the time and I’ve never known someone who won’t. I’d certainly be interested to know what you’re instructors reasoning behind that is.
But which one do you lift when there is no crosswind component/other influencing factors.
Usually the right, but I know a few guys that habitually lift the left when there’s no crosswind too. I think it’s really up to personal preference.
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pelmet
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Re: Floatplane Crash Thread

Post by pelmet »

pelmet wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:03 am
scdriver wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:14 pm
Lotro wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:38 am I'm a LOW time float pilot, and I've had some good training including lifting a float to facilitate getting off the water more quickly when heavier, or glassy water or in other conditions. I've also spent about half my life sitting beside capable floatplane pilots and have witnessed various forms of this technique executed well on different airframes by different people.

I'm not an expert, but I have some experience.

There's a bit of a gotcha in the training however: Yes, lift the downwind wing/float first. Yes, always lift the right float. I don't think I've ever seen anyone lift the left float. The topic of lifting the right float was covered at a COPA safety seminar earlier this year, the specifics of which are vague to me right now.

Anyways, the gotcha is that if you lift the right float on a day when that happens to be the upwind float, your wing may touch the water and you will be upset.

I will now go back and ask my instructor why we "always" lift the right float, because I'm not certain I remember, but I am guilty of this mental binding.
That’s new to me, I lift the left float all the time and I’ve never known someone who won’t. I’d certainly be interested to know what you’re instructors reasoning behind that is.
But which one do you lift when there is no crosswind component/other influencing factors.
I was taught to raise the right float as engine torque assists with this.
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