"Big men" in aviation

[itaserb]

Have you ever met "Big men" in 703 or 704? Because looks like I met a lot. Captains are complaining about each other with FOs. An hour later they gossip about FOs or ramp guys being stupid. And the same time any other company in Canada sucks for them(including 705) and there is no future except flying jets for a rich person. Pilots in other companies are not competent but if they meet them they obviously have a nice small talk. Young captains saying sh*t about older guys and vice versa. However, they are all friends and they hang out with each other.

Looking at that hypocrisy, I'm asking myself. Maybe it's something wrong with me because the majority of guys are like that or it's just them. I'm trying to be a nice guy to everybody but it's hard knowing that they gossip about my friends and who knows what they say about me.

Looking for your real-life experience.

[CpnCrunch]

Sounds a lot like avcanada.

From my own perspective (not working in commercial aviation, but coming in contact with a lot of the people you describe), I get the impression that the complainers get stuck in their position, while the competent/reasonable/nice people move up to the airlines and corporate aviation flying the rich people around.

Anyway, my suggestion is to be friendly to everyone but ignore the BS as much as possible.

[PilotDAR]

My experience has been that when I demonstrate respect, I receive respect, when I listen, I hear. If I fail to listen, I do not hear, I fail to learn and make friends. If I complain, few people want to talk to me, and I fail to learn and make friends.

I have certainly learned that when negativity might seem possible, positivity will attract the kind of people one would like to be around...

[digits_]

Captains are complaining about each other with FOs. An hour later they gossip about FOs or ramp guys being stupid. And the same time any other company in Canada sucks for them(including 705) and there is no future except flying jets for a rich person. Pilots in other companies are not competent but if they meet them they obviously have a nice small talk. Young captains saying sh*t about older guys and vice versa. However, they are all friends and they hang out with each other.

Looking at that hypocrisy, I'm asking myself. Maybe it's something wrong with me because the majority of guys are like that or it's just them. I'm trying to be a nice guy to everybody but it's hard knowing that they gossip about my friends and who knows what they say about me.

Looking for your real-life experience.

Highly depends on the job. Seems like this is more common in jobs requiring more idle stand by time. But yes, it's fairly common. And usually there is seldom one, they always seem to come in groups. Seems like an indication of a toxic culture to me, and -caution wild stereotype ahead- a bit of a North American culture thing. People will rarely open show dislike to one another, which makes negative feelings fester a bit more. Western Europeans are more open to that. Although that could also be described as 'less civil'.

[2112]

Yes they are everywhere, I was one (and I may still be). I recall about 8 years ago now having these exact thoughts about other pilots some from other companies and some who I even worked with. I had finally made it off the ramp and became PIC on a couple different airplane types. The constant competing with pilots for that coveted seat and the perpetual merry go round of shitty bosses, maintenance and schedules really aids itself to developing absolutely toxic social behaviours. Luckily as time goes on most of us grow up and realize it just takes way more energy to be a dick then a decent human. Flying is just a job now and I absolutely love the crews I get to fly with (still flying 703 medevac to boot). For most of us this is just a phase but it is important to recognize when you run into those older die hards and run don't walk away you'll be way better off.

[Heliian]

It's not just pilots, this is common in a lot of workplaces. Sometimes it's justified, sometimes people like to whine and complain about their situations just for the sake of it.

One of the reasons for my shitty attitude is that I'd like to live a long and productive life. There is no second chance in a lot of cases and I don't tempt it. You are going to get my input.

I don't like to talk behind other people's backs but it still happens when those people are mentioned.

It is always a pleasure to work in a happy positive company but they don't usually pay the best.

[Bede]

Sounds a lot like avcanada.

From my own perspective (not working in commercial aviation, but coming in contact with a lot of the people you describe), I get the impression that the complainers get stuck in their position, while the competent/reasonable/nice people move up to the airlines and corporate aviation flying the rich people around.

Anyway, my suggestion is to be friendly to everyone but ignore the BS as much as possible.

Very true. I can count on 1 hand the number of people I don’t like sharing a flight deck with at WJ.

[cdnpilot77]

Toxic Masculinity and Drama….some pilots seem to live for both. Not at all uncommon in any “Type A” filled jobs. Ever work on a construction site? You’d think you were in scenes of real housewives.

[dialdriver]

Sounds a lot like avcanada.

From my own perspective (not working in commercial aviation, but coming in contact with a lot of the people you describe), I get the impression that the complainers get stuck in their position, while the competent/reasonable/nice people move up to the airlines and corporate aviation flying the rich people around.

Anyway, my suggestion is to be friendly to everyone but ignore the BS as much as possible.

Very true. I can count on 1 hand the number of people I don’t like sharing a flight deck with at WJ.

I hear Westjet is the most toxic airline around.

[DanWEC]

Just be yourself, enjoy your time and don't think you have to respect captains that act that way. Learn about flying from them, that's all. All it takes are a couple of guys in a 703 to create a culture of negativity that's impossible to quench unless the problems leave. The newbies think it's cool to finally bitch about someone else instead of being on the receiving end, they take on that attitude and it perpetuates.
The operation makes a big difference too. The better 703's don't have the same type of culture. Maybe one or two guys ,but it doesn't spread much if everyone is happy.
Nobody is going to give a recommend to someone who is constantly complaining, miserable, pompous, and talking about others behind their back. Would you?
"Be the change you want to see around you."

[Bede]

I hear Westjet is the most toxic airline around.

The people I work with (pilots, FA's) are fantastic. Having to constantly fight for things in the collective agreement and getting it drawn out through the grievance process and have it settled after months of hassle is a pain.

[Otto Pilot]

Have you ever met "Big men" in 703 or 704? Because looks like I met a lot. Captains are complaining about each other with FOs. An hour later they gossip about FOs or ramp guys being stupid. And the same time any other company in Canada sucks for them(including 705) and there is no future except flying jets for a rich person. Pilots in other companies are not competent but if they meet them they obviously have a nice small talk. Young captains saying sh*t about older guys and vice versa. However, they are all friends and they hang out with each other.

Looking at that hypocrisy, I'm asking myself. Maybe it's something wrong with me because the majority of guys are like that or it's just them. I'm trying to be a nice guy to everybody but it's hard knowing that they gossip about my friends and who knows what they say about me.

Looking for your real-life experience.

Better question is why is everyone acting that way now? All the plans people have made pre covid have been put to a screeching halt. Maybe their better other half's are sick of hearing them complain on the home front and work is the only place to blow off some of the steam. Is the company you work for pulling some dirty little tricks making lots of people sour? I bet I can guess what company you work for.. just learn from the misery captains and if they start a convo you are sick of hearing try changing the subject. Pull out paperwork and say you'll talk when your done. In this career you are going to meet LOTs and LOTs of people you do not click with and meet lots that you do. You have to learn how to tailor the conversation to your liking or its going to be a very long road. I understand how being paired with these people are and it is no fun, but you have to learn some tricks and tips for flying with the said conversationalist. People are not acting the same due to the pandemic.
ex) not being able to travel and use holiday time
2) how many times have these people left to see their family and friends?
3) is holiday time being approved for them ? Or are they short staffed.
Once things start picking up I'm assuming attitudes will follow in similar fashion.

[digits_]

In this career you are going to meet LOTs and LOTs of people you do not click with and meet lots that you do. You have to learn how to tailor the conversation to your liking or its going to be a very long road.

It doesn't have much to do with not clicking. It's about the hypocritical attitude by being your friend when talking to you, and then shit talking you beind your back. The 'victim' might actually have the impression they do click with said person.

I would label this as an objectively shitty attitude to have. I've experienced it and I've witnessed it. It's also extremely hard to eradicate. If you get involved, then you're the troublemaker.

[Jean-Pierre]

Hey that remind me. What ever happened to Doc?

[Otto Pilot]

In this career you are going to meet LOTs and LOTs of people you do not click with and meet lots that you do. You have to learn how to tailor the conversation to your liking or its going to be a very long road.

It doesn't have much to do with not clicking. It's about the hypocritical attitude by being your friend when talking to you, and then shit talking you beind your back. The 'victim' might actually have the impression they do click with said person.

I would label this as an objectively shitty attitude to have. I've experienced it and I've witnessed it. It's also extremely hard to eradicate. If you get involved, then you're the troublemaker.

I'm picking up what your putting down. Makes sense. But I believe in this day and age with the new era pilots this is just the way it is. They all feel very entitled to anything and everything. What I was trying to get at is if you go to jazz encore or what have you, chances of flying with the same crew you like is pretty thin. You are going to meet those capts and fos that you love and some that you hate and it's something that you are going to have to get use to. It's a career and you can't have the best come out in everyone every day. Some talk shit, some are God's gift to aviation. It's the nature of the job. If anyone finds a place where this doesn't happen I'd be surprised.. not trying to sound like an ass, just a friendly debate.

[Capt. Underpants]

I'm picking up what your putting down. Makes sense. But I believe in this day and age with the new era pilots this is just the way it is. They all feel very entitled to anything and everything.

After 40 years in aviation, I'm comfortable in saying entitlement isn't the exclusive domain of "new era" pilots. Every place I've worked has had a smattering of know it alls.

[pelmet]

Yes, I have seen that where I worked. I believe it is a reflection of our society and not just aviation. Perhaps, it comes out more in aviation because two people(or more) are stuck together for long periods. One guy was great at bad-mouthing his own friends to me.

I was with a mechanic who was temporarily over from the UK for a few days a few years ago and discovered him to be like that. Good guy but similar to the first post. Made me think that it is a cultural hand-down from over there.

The other thing about the guys complaining about the company was in general....the better they had it(money, schedule), the more they badmouthed the management.

[Bede]

If anyone finds a place where this doesn't happen I'd be surprised.. not trying to sound like an ass, just a friendly debate.

It's never been my experience in this industry. 99% good guys and girls. But then again, maybe I'm the Douchebag.

[tsgarp]

It’s not limited to aviation and it’s not limited to men.

[rookiepilot]

Are the Big Men the ones wearing their 4 bars around the Mall to impress teenage girls?

[dialdriver]

Are the Big Men the ones wearing their 4 bars around the Mall to impress teenage girls?

Does that work?

[rookiepilot]

Are the Big Men the ones wearing their 4 bars around the Mall to impress teenage girls?

Does that work?

I wouldn’t know, not having such bars, but the silence after my comment is telling.

[Squaretail]

It's never been my experience in this industry. 99% good guys and girls. But then again, maybe I'm the Douchebag.

In most workplaces its the same. In general, most people want to do their jobs and get home at the end of the day without much hassle. Like most things though, a few tend to ruin stuff for many. Any job becomes a terrible job if you have to do it with crappy people, and there's an infinite number of ways people can be crappy.

The worst jobs in the world involve customer service, largely because you increase the sample size of the people, so are more likely to encounter a greater volume of people and the chances of any given day you have to deal with an asshole increase by several orders of magnitude. This problem is compounded by the fact that an asshole encounter may dominate your day. This problem always was manifest in flight instructing, while 95% of the student/customers were good people, it was the problem student/customers which seemed to dominate your day - and of course being the slower students generally, you ended up having to spend a larger portion of your time with the people you didn't particularly like.

[Rooster69]

Are the Big Men the ones wearing their 4 bars around the Mall to impress teenage girls?

Has anyone ever actually seen this? I have only heard about it.

[valleyboy]

Are the Big Men the ones wearing their 4 bars around the Mall to impress teenage girls?

one further - to bars and night clubs to pick up dates. First hand knowledge but that was many years ago we had a cpl guys doing this, needless to say once the rumour mill started up they were dealt with.