South River Accident
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
South River Accident
Anyone have any info about the Mooney at South River?
Re: South River Accident
To bring this thread up to date, two women pilots participating in some type of 99s event died in this accident. Both from Ontario, one in her 70s, the other in her 40s.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
Re: South River Accident
"C-FLJL, a privately registered Mooney M20J, was landing on runway 30 at the South River Airport
(CPE6), ON. During the landing, it was reported that the aircraft bounced several times, and
subsequently a go-around was conducted. The aircraft was observed climbing over the trees at the
end of the runway. However, shortly afterwards the aircraft crashed into the bush, approximately
1300 feet from the departure end of the runway. Both occupants received fatal injuries, and the
aircraft was destroyed. The TSB deployed investigators to the accident site."
Was the shorter of the two runways at 2,600'. In a Mooney, you would want to be very sure to be at an appropriate approach speed when landing on a runway at that length. The one I was flying made me look silly a couple of times with a long, long float/bounces. I found slowing down and going down on final, near impossible, even with speedbrakes extended.
But long landings can happen for a variety of reasons. Many details of this accident are unknown and the report says that they did clear the trees at the end of the runway. But the report does seem to me to be a good reminder that on short runways, especially with obstacles at the far end, one should be going around from a rejected landing sooner than they might on a longer runway. Reminding yourself of this in advance can be helpful such as only accepting a minor amount of float. If it is more than minor, go around. Worked well for me once on a short grass runway in a C337. Had thought about it in advance and went around when I started floating for more than a few seconds. In my case, there were no significant obstacles which make the decision even more critical.
(CPE6), ON. During the landing, it was reported that the aircraft bounced several times, and
subsequently a go-around was conducted. The aircraft was observed climbing over the trees at the
end of the runway. However, shortly afterwards the aircraft crashed into the bush, approximately
1300 feet from the departure end of the runway. Both occupants received fatal injuries, and the
aircraft was destroyed. The TSB deployed investigators to the accident site."
Was the shorter of the two runways at 2,600'. In a Mooney, you would want to be very sure to be at an appropriate approach speed when landing on a runway at that length. The one I was flying made me look silly a couple of times with a long, long float/bounces. I found slowing down and going down on final, near impossible, even with speedbrakes extended.
But long landings can happen for a variety of reasons. Many details of this accident are unknown and the report says that they did clear the trees at the end of the runway. But the report does seem to me to be a good reminder that on short runways, especially with obstacles at the far end, one should be going around from a rejected landing sooner than they might on a longer runway. Reminding yourself of this in advance can be helpful such as only accepting a minor amount of float. If it is more than minor, go around. Worked well for me once on a short grass runway in a C337. Had thought about it in advance and went around when I started floating for more than a few seconds. In my case, there were no significant obstacles which make the decision even more critical.
Last edited by pelmet on Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: South River Accident
Two identical fuel-inj piston with CS-props … within 1/2 hour, 280nm apart. Fowlerville Mi (42.64N 84.08W)/ SouthRiver- Sundridge On (45.82N 79.33W) … Aviation Safety Network “Sept 16 2021 M20J 201”
Last edited by pdw on Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:42 am, edited 22 times in total.
South River accident
What means do investigators have for proof or detection/recognition of actual engine related icing engine-failure from intake/induction ice-accumulation that of course will have melted/evaporated well before any of their investigating team can arrive at the resulting tragedy/accident
Wundermap data
2 synopses’ central-Mi/On temps/dewpoints:
1)3:25pm/Mi passes 4300msl abeam KMIDANS4 elev929ft 57.4F/57.4F 16nm out of KOZW heading east (flightaware)
lapserate 5.4F/Kx3371agl (minus 18.1F) OAT 39.4F
forced landing approx 4nm short of Rwy 13
2) 2:54pm/On 17nm out of CEP6 northbound from CYKZ 4000msl abeam IKEARN1 53.8F/53.6F elev1119ft
2881aglx5.4F/K (subtract 15.6F) OAT 38.2F
go-around accident site 1300ft beyond rwy30
Wundermap data
2 synopses’ central-Mi/On temps/dewpoints:
1)3:25pm/Mi passes 4300msl abeam KMIDANS4 elev929ft 57.4F/57.4F 16nm out of KOZW heading east (flightaware)
lapserate 5.4F/Kx3371agl (minus 18.1F) OAT 39.4F
forced landing approx 4nm short of Rwy 13
2) 2:54pm/On 17nm out of CEP6 northbound from CYKZ 4000msl abeam IKEARN1 53.8F/53.6F elev1119ft
2881aglx5.4F/K (subtract 15.6F) OAT 38.2F
go-around accident site 1300ft beyond rwy30
Last edited by pdw on Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:09 am, edited 98 times in total.
Re: South River Accident
With some limited personal insight, if TC eliminates everything else, and the conditions for icing are there, they may suggest it as a potential cause factor but not a definitive finding.
Re: South River Accident
In the past we’ve all read it’s ‘not ruled out’ FUEL INJECTION inner intake can be ‘ice-susceptible’ too (but with TBI mostly too little to notice) not like rpm-change/power-loss as the ‘carbureted’ engines have had in the extreme.
Lapse rate 5.4Fahrenheit per 1000ft; both A/C’s flight path slowing-descents initiate roughly 3000feet/On & 1km/Mi (3300ft) above ground level in ‘retreating air’ (colder wedges of air mid 50’s across both places’ nearby surface stations) with SOUTH-10kts/warmer 75F (measured at most airports at same time) overrunning toward LO on Hudson’s Bay.
Lapse rate 5.4Fahrenheit per 1000ft; both A/C’s flight path slowing-descents initiate roughly 3000feet/On & 1km/Mi (3300ft) above ground level in ‘retreating air’ (colder wedges of air mid 50’s across both places’ nearby surface stations) with SOUTH-10kts/warmer 75F (measured at most airports at same time) overrunning toward LO on Hudson’s Bay.
Last edited by pdw on Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:20 pm, edited 74 times in total.
Re: South River Accident
Your directness is much appreciated.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
Re: South River Accident
Ok.
Descent power from slow-up up at cruise speed/altitude to touchdown is identical too; a bullseye for extreme on icing charts used for the three types. The restricting/closed throttle plate would be vulnerable with that description in these descents with the 4C-temperatures/upward-humidities. Throttle/adiabatic cooling rate relates to the inches of MP reduced.
When on fuel injection piston engines the butterfly valve is full open as in cruise or in climb the chance is apparently NIL for extra ice up since no constriction of flow & temperature drop across it is NIL (common knowledge). No cooling, no temp drop. Stays close to same temp as entry at filter. BUT! Remember CARB NOT GOOD HERE(in climb carbice risk is bad from fuel-vaporization/venturi effect) ..i.e.which are you flying ?
Descent power from slow-up up at cruise speed/altitude to touchdown is identical too; a bullseye for extreme on icing charts used for the three types. The restricting/closed throttle plate would be vulnerable with that description in these descents with the 4C-temperatures/upward-humidities. Throttle/adiabatic cooling rate relates to the inches of MP reduced.
When on fuel injection piston engines the butterfly valve is full open as in cruise or in climb the chance is apparently NIL for extra ice up since no constriction of flow & temperature drop across it is NIL (common knowledge). No cooling, no temp drop. Stays close to same temp as entry at filter. BUT! Remember CARB NOT GOOD HERE(in climb carbice risk is bad from fuel-vaporization/venturi effect) ..i.e.which are you flying ?
Last edited by pdw on Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:41 pm, edited 18 times in total.
Re: South River Accident
Runway three zero has been paved within the last twelve months, now 2800’pelmet wrote:Was the shorter of the two runways at 2,600’.
Be good to have one solid narrative here that includes all of them.But long landings can happen for a variety of reasons.
Last edited by pdw on Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:58 am, edited 10 times in total.
Re: South River Accident
The evidence would still have to be there to say anything more, it makes sense.
Re: South River Accident
TSB report has been published.
Very late go around with possible poor ignition but no conclusive determinations.
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... O0085.html
Very late go around with possible poor ignition but no conclusive determinations.
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... O0085.html
Re: South River Accident
When there are obstacles at the far end of the runway, one has to consider this and make a commitment to land, regardless of what might happen as at some point, a go-around becomes a guaranteed accident. Deciding at what point to make the commitment to land is guesswork only. Here is another case that recently happened.....
C-FZNS, a privately registered Cessna U206D (Stationair) was conducting a flight from Fort St.
John (CYXJ), BC, to a private landing strip located at 56°38'25.10"N, 123°23'41.62"W, known as
Big Meadow, BC, under visual flight rules with one pilot and one passenger on board. Upon
touchdown, the grass landing surface was found to be wet, and braking action was reported to be
poor. The pilot elected to perform a go-around. They became airborne but collided with trees at the
end of the runway. A 406 MHz emergency locator transmitter (ELT) on board the aircraft activated
automatically at 0907 Pacific Daylight Time (PDT), and a search and rescue aircraft was
dispatched in response. The pilot was uninjured, but the passenger sustained minor injuries. There
was no post-crash fire, but the aircraft was substantially damaged.
The pilot and passenger were extracted by private helicopter prior to the arrival of search and
rescue personnel.
...From TSB.
C-FZNS, a privately registered Cessna U206D (Stationair) was conducting a flight from Fort St.
John (CYXJ), BC, to a private landing strip located at 56°38'25.10"N, 123°23'41.62"W, known as
Big Meadow, BC, under visual flight rules with one pilot and one passenger on board. Upon
touchdown, the grass landing surface was found to be wet, and braking action was reported to be
poor. The pilot elected to perform a go-around. They became airborne but collided with trees at the
end of the runway. A 406 MHz emergency locator transmitter (ELT) on board the aircraft activated
automatically at 0907 Pacific Daylight Time (PDT), and a search and rescue aircraft was
dispatched in response. The pilot was uninjured, but the passenger sustained minor injuries. There
was no post-crash fire, but the aircraft was substantially damaged.
The pilot and passenger were extracted by private helicopter prior to the arrival of search and
rescue personnel.
...From TSB.
Re: South River Accident
I think you’ve committed to land if the approach had you touching before the first quarter (as in this case with the mooney). You punch the throttle (when you realize wet grass, too fast, or too little runway to stop) but then instantly realize it’s a mistake …. Then committ to bend up a bit ..(I would say describing it that way would be accurate in my incident) … ie have the guts to pull the pin again at that point if not sure about clearing.
But with the performance shear however light, in the case of the mooney near full gross (report), I wouldn’t call it an “elected” decision … I would maybe call it ‘instinctively executed’ because of the split second nature of the “guesswork” ( maybe two split seconds).
Nice post. Difficult subject IMO.
Last edited by pdw on Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: South River Accident
Depending on obstacles beyond the runway, you may have to make that commitment prior to touchdown. It can be difficult to decide what that point will be with so many variables.pdw wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:58 amI think you’ve committed to land if the approach had you touching before the first quarter (as in this case with the mooney). You punch the throttle and instantly realize it’s a mistake …. ((I would say describing it that way would be accurate)
But with the performance shear however light, in the case of the mooney near full gross (report), I wouldn’t call it an “elected” decision … I would maybe call it ‘instinctively executed’ because of the split second nature of the “guesswork”
Nice post.
Re: South River Accident
In these 2 tkof accidents (Sundrige and Big Meadow Strip) it’s trees both ends with different air below the treetops. The second of touchdown still looking good at Sundridge, no way to really notice somewhat higher ground speed in flare before airspeed jumps to some increased performance shear down low in the open away from trees again. (It’s typical to be slow-as-possible, at a shortfield airspeed, coming over the last few trees so nose down steeper to TDZ (ie note down in first quarter of the runway as shown by the report’s photo diagram) also stated in the report with witnessed “steeper” , which is normal, except where groundspeed still high up to that point when it meets that different air crosswind.
I’m familiar with the meteorology at the two identical mooney accidents (similar atmosphere) 280nm east and west of each other (1Mich/1Ontario) at same time two years ago Sept 16 2021 14:45. For this one here in Canada, there are 20 useful private wx stations near enough to Sundridge/South River Arpt that are useful, most closer than North Bay Arpt 75 kilometres North (used in report). Yet 2:45pm was much different North of the city of North Bay (additionally the 3pm CYYB Metar used is after the occurrence time, warmer). Sundridge/SR Arpt (and South/SE of) was highest RH, 10C colder and different wind dir/speed.
((IBRITISH585 / Beryl Prarrie wundermap South of “Big Meadow” is a fairly close station to the 206 accident cited; the guess would be the final approach in that case (west of Fort St John Aug 28 9:07am) was more favourable for Northerly direction in landing (approach tlwnd). It’s possible that a 90deg crosswind observed on the flyover made the choice of choosing landing direction of the single runway option look very close to 50/50 optional. So then, what’s the runway heading ??))
I’m familiar with the meteorology at the two identical mooney accidents (similar atmosphere) 280nm east and west of each other (1Mich/1Ontario) at same time two years ago Sept 16 2021 14:45. For this one here in Canada, there are 20 useful private wx stations near enough to Sundridge/South River Arpt that are useful, most closer than North Bay Arpt 75 kilometres North (used in report). Yet 2:45pm was much different North of the city of North Bay (additionally the 3pm CYYB Metar used is after the occurrence time, warmer). Sundridge/SR Arpt (and South/SE of) was highest RH, 10C colder and different wind dir/speed.
((IBRITISH585 / Beryl Prarrie wundermap South of “Big Meadow” is a fairly close station to the 206 accident cited; the guess would be the final approach in that case (west of Fort St John Aug 28 9:07am) was more favourable for Northerly direction in landing (approach tlwnd). It’s possible that a 90deg crosswind observed on the flyover made the choice of choosing landing direction of the single runway option look very close to 50/50 optional. So then, what’s the runway heading ??))
Last edited by pdw on Thu Sep 28, 2023 11:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
Re: South River Accident
Could this accident have also been an attempt to outclimb an obstacle off the end of the runway?
C-GJOX, a Cessna 172S aircraft registered to Harv's Air Service, departed Steinbach/Steinbach
South (CKK7), MB, on a VFR rental flight. While attempting to land in a mowed field one mile north
of Stratton, ON, the aircraft touched down briefly and the pilot then initiated an overshoot. During
the initial climb, the aircraft became uncontrollable, descended into power lines, and collided with
terrain. The aircraft came to rest inverted. The three occupants were not injured. The aircraft was
destroyed. It was reported that tailwinds were present at the time of the attempted landing.
....from TSB.
Kind of unusual for a flight school to allow one of their nice aircraft(172S) to be operated onto some non-airport grass field.
https://www.nwonewswatch.com/local-news ... sh-7563132
C-GJOX, a Cessna 172S aircraft registered to Harv's Air Service, departed Steinbach/Steinbach
South (CKK7), MB, on a VFR rental flight. While attempting to land in a mowed field one mile north
of Stratton, ON, the aircraft touched down briefly and the pilot then initiated an overshoot. During
the initial climb, the aircraft became uncontrollable, descended into power lines, and collided with
terrain. The aircraft came to rest inverted. The three occupants were not injured. The aircraft was
destroyed. It was reported that tailwinds were present at the time of the attempted landing.
....from TSB.
Kind of unusual for a flight school to allow one of their nice aircraft(172S) to be operated onto some non-airport grass field.
https://www.nwonewswatch.com/local-news ... sh-7563132