Pilot Immigration

[FEDUP123]

Something that I've been finding quite troublesome the last few weeks is the issue of foreign pilots immigrating to Canada, based on the fact that they are a pilot and apparently we are short on pilots here???

Here is the scenario...

Pilot A who was born and raised in India comes here, does his training and with this huge boom on in India right now, returns home and in about 3 months is sitting in the right seat of a 319, 737, or even 777!! etc. (I'm not BS ing here)

He does this for maybe 2 years, building up heavy jet time. He then applies to Canada for citizenship and is accepted due to his "experience" and of course is hired onto a major carrier here, displacing those of us who are working our way to the top the hard way. This is not necessarily happening at only the major airline level, but through all the levels.

I know personally of an instructor(Indian citizen who trained over here for 10 months) who is obtaining citizenship due to the fact that he is a flight instructor!! How many unemployed flight instuctors, are there in Canada right now?? a couple hundred to a few thousand at LEAST would be my guess.

I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts, but this makes my blood boil.

[Canus Chinookus]

I'd put the blame on the person doing the hiring. Hmm, I wonder if it's government subsidized in any way?

[greenwich]

'FEDUP'...

Hey, I know where U are going with this one (and I can't disagree).

I started a 'thread' a while back about pilots with accents. It just seemed to me that I was hearing more and more pilots with accents on the radio. And just on basic 703/704 aircraft...not even the big stuff!!

I got crucified!!

G

[lowandslow]

totally agree FEDUP. We should be looking after our own better, but eh, thats not the Canadian way..... don't get me started

[Brewguy]

Your frustration is understandable... but you also have to realize that there are plenty of Canadian pilots working overseas, and for foreign companies. Aviation just happens to be a global industry - and it's not the only one. The same thing is common in other areas such as engineering too.

Sure, it would be nice if Canadian companies gave precidence to Canadian workers ... but the limit of what they can ask on an application is "Are you legally entitled to work in Canada?".

As for who should be allowed to work in Canada - this is a matter for the folks at Immigration. Just look at the situation with doctors - Immigration tells foreign doctors that they are needed in Canada, so they come here and can't work because the provinces won't recognize their foreign credentials. The entire process of evaluating immigration applications in Canada needs to be revamped.

Again, I can understand your frustration - but don't blame the immigrants looking for work in their profession. When it comes to the guy from the UAE wanting to fly in Canada, it's likely because a Canadian took the job over there, looking for "good money". Such are the trappings of our new, smaller world and global economy.

Cat - any comments on pilots working overseas?
Either foreign pilots in Canada, or Canadians abroad ... I only ask because you seem fairly "worldly".

[happy_flyer]

It's not just flying that is affected like this. In the last few years Canada has changed its immigration policy. 5 years ago Canada maintained a list of "jobs" that were considered to be of a certain skill level and demand that the population of Canada could not fullfil, and were opened up to immigrants based on their suitability - experience and training/education. Pilots were not on this list, and the applicants "score" would have to meet the mark based on different criteria. ( I own up to being one such applicant who failed to get immigrant status as a pilot). In recent years policy has changed, and now there is a bigger list that appears to include the majority of skilled trades and crafts. If a potential immigrant has a certain amount of training and education, regardless of the demand in Canada, then the points awarded are pretty much the same regardless of the job that they are aiming for. Also, I believe the total number of points needed to be successful has been reduced. It's not as difficult as it used to be - some post-grad training ( Commercial, instructor etc ) combined with a couple years experience and the doors open fairly easy.

[cyyz]

I'd put the blame on the person doing the hiring. Hmm, I wonder if it's government subsidized in any way?

Whatever at the main issue at hand but as CC pointed out if they come here and get a farking handout of any sort, I'm gonna go lynch them and the local MPs..

[The Old Fogducker]

Gee Fed .. if you feel that strongly about it, why not just go out and buy a firearm and blow a few of 'em away in the local airport terminal.

That will create a few openings for "racially pure Canadians" and will send a strong messaage to "those people" overseas who are getting a little "uppity"and want to come to Canada to build a better life for themselves and their families. Just like your grandad or some other ancestor likely did.

Fog

[FEDUP123]

Gee Fed .. if you feel that strongly about it, why not just go out and buy a firearm and blow a few of 'em away in the local airport terminal.

That will create a few openings for "racially pure Canadians" and will send a strong messaage to "those people" overseas who are getting a little "uppity"and want to come to Canada to build a better life for themselves and their families. Just like your grandad or some other ancestor likely did.

Fog

Wow, that is pretty far off base from what I was implying...

[pilotbzh]

to be a canadian citizen your have to lived for 3 years in Canada, He must have a work permit or became a landed immigrant juste like a few hundred thousand a year. the fact that he is a pilot won't give him any extra point in the landing immigrant process, he may also have a sponsor from his familly....I don't see the problem, he could have been a lawer or doctor, would you have complained then????

You don't get a Canadian citizenship because of your experience, you may use it to get credit on a landing immigrant application just like a carpenter could credit his experience......

[joubahop]

Dear Greenwich,

I started a 'thread' a while back about pilots with accents. It just seemed to me that I was hearing more and more pilots with accents on the radio

Welcome to Canada!! We NEED immigrant! I don't suppose you already have three kids of your own to counterbalance our slow canadian born population growth.

[Rubberbiscuit]

I understand that obtaining your Canadian citizenship is fairly expensive! How does someone earning flightinstructor wages pay for that? Oh! Ooops! Was I just prejudice?

[thorvald]

Easy, easy there Fedup.....easy there cowboy.
Is "PILOT" in the Immigration Canada list? If it is now, I'd have to agree with you - we shouldn't be allowing foreign pilots to come in while there are so many of us unemployed. Is "FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR" in the list as well? If so, same applies.
However, if neither are in the list, are you suggesting that the flying should be left for those born in Canada only? Are you suggestin that there are hundreds of pilots who werent born in Canada stealing your job and your good old buddies job? Well, well, you can't have the convenient way all the time for 3 reasons: 1) There are hundreds and hundreds of Canadian pilots flying different types of operations in all corners of the planet, may it be a 747-400 in Hong Kong, a floatplane in the Maldives, Twin Otters in the Caribbean, 727s in Cuba and South America, turbo props in Europe, 777s in the far east or a Dash 8 in Africa. No problem here, isnt't? I bet you'd take a job off a Turkish pilot in no time, wouldn't ya? I would.

2) If it weren't for the immigrants ("those people"!) a good chunck of us wouldnt have a plane to fly "those people" around and the packages and freight they send across the country. Just take the immigrant content off Vancouver and it wouldn't even have a Wal-mart in there. Toronto's population is around 45-55% foreign born

So, back to that India pilot you were mentioning - oh, well, if it's true, dont worry, it's just a little set back in the big picture - dont allow your good old royal Canadian blood to boil over it.

ps- Funny how nobody mentioned our Aussie brothers flying 737s right here in our faces. Oh, hang on, they are not those people.

[Cat Driver]

nblythin asked :

" Cat - any comments on pilots working overseas?
Either foreign pilots in Canada, or Canadians abroad ... I only ask because you seem fairly "worldly". "

I am probably the wrong person to give real good advice on this subject because I work in foreign countries under exemptions from their regulations that have been granted based on my qualifications.

Lets have a quick look at the JAA/JAR in Europe and see what is required.

Remember I am only commenting on this from talking to pilots in Europe, however I believe that for a Canadian to get a ALTP in Europe would involve about a year of study, 14 exams and around $25,000 if you did it in Europe.

I fly a real variety of aircraft from the little Pitts to the B767 300 and spend most of my time with pilots and mechanics, what I get from talking to these people is the struggle from a basic trainer into a jet transport is every bit as difficult in Europe as in Canada...however there are more jets in Europe.

I wish I could be more specific in answering your question but I work in a specialty market and therefore under different policies regarding licenses and approvals to fly.

Here is a good one for you to research...JAR states you can not fly as a PIC carrying passengers in a commercial operation after the age of 60...and after the age of 65 you can not act as a PIC or FO period...I'm 70 and they still give me exemptions including a unrestricted air display authorization...weird huh?

For what it is worth I received an E-mail a few hours ago confirming that they want me to arrive Amsterdam on the 16 th. of March and all my authorizations to fly are valid, makes one wonder why I can fly most anything that gets off the ground in Europe without even having to get their licenses and in Canada I can't even operate a Cessna 150, go figure?

So nblythin I guess I'm not much help except to comment that it is not easy to get a job anywhere.

Cat

[JigglyBus]

Torval,

I think you need to look into what you are talking about a little closer.

There is no 'immigration canada list' as you described. There is simply immigration on a points based system. You don't have to have a relative or sponsor as you mentioned. Also, Canada recently lowered their policy to a minimum of 67 points.

If you have a two year diploma (20 points), speak good english (16 points), two years work experience (17 pioints), Middle Aged (10 points), and did your two year schooling in Canada (8 points), you would have a total 71 points, and be perfectly elligable(sp?) to immigrate to Canada, absolutely NO family connections at all. Oh, but if you did, that's an extra 5 points.

Oh, and with the Canadian pilots taking jobs in foreign countries, that is simply a supply and demand issue. In those countries where Canadian pilots are employed to work, there are not locals who are available and trained to take the positions. That is the only way you are able to secure a work permit, if there are no suitable local candidates.

[bob sacamano]

'FEDUP'...

Hey, I know where U are going with this one (and I can't disagree).

I started a 'thread' a while back about pilots with accents. It just seemed to me that I was hearing more and more pilots with accents on the radio. And just on basic 703/704 aircraft...not even the big stuff!!

I got crucified!!

G

Yeah you're right man, working ATC in the Middle East a few years back, I sure did hear alot of accents as well, mostly american and Canadian, and oh, they weren't flying AC. Maybe our fellow Canadians flying for Emirates, Qatari, Saudi, Kuwait Airways, Gulf Air, Etihad, Jazira, etc, etc, etc, should come back to Canada and take your 703/704 jobs.

I wonder if you'd stilll be complaining about accents.

p.s. were they french accents?


I won't crucify you, just go do this

[bob sacamano]

Oh, and with the Canadian pilots taking jobs in foreign countries, that is simply a supply and demand issue. In those countries where Canadian pilots are employed to work, there are not locals who are available and trained to take the positions. That is the only way you are able to secure a work permit, if there are no suitable local candidates.

Funny, lots of Canadians flying in the states, I guess they got no locals either. And yeah, we Canadians will have an accent in the states.

[water wings]

well, i will admit i am one of the pilots looking at leaving and going overseas, using the 3 passports i have luckily been granted, thanks to my immigrant parents ( who have worked their asses off since landing here, paid taxes and been screwed by the governement on a regular basis)

and now for cyyz, a wee story about pilots and funding.

and... i do know of a governement subsidized flight training granted to a new CDN. The HRDC were willing to pay for all of his training and even forked over the $$ to one of my local flight schools to complete said training. The flight school brought it to the attention of the students' "consellor" one of their 17 year old line boys was having a hard time paying for his continuing flight training and was turned down for any funding as he did not fit the requirements. They also pointed out that the newbie they were spending all of this money on to become an Airline pilot was 56 years old and could barely speak English, let alone French.

Our system at work, folks. They were willing to pay for one mans' childhood dream, but were unwilling to help with one of their own young men. Blame the system, no the accent, eh?

Oh and the idea that this freaking planet needs more humans, joubahop, is insane. We are the new rabbits. Geographically imbalanced, but rabbits.

[r22captain]

water wings is correct. The gov't does help fund foreign pilots coming to canada. There has been a job I've been after for sometime that keeps getting filled my pilots from overseas, the gov't helps the company and the pilots out with training/paperwork etc, and in turn the company underpays them cause they give the pilots so much help getting here and they are willing to except it be cause there is little to no flying in their home country. Needless to say I've stopped chasing that job. Quite happy where I am.

Perhaps it's not right for CND pilots to take jobs overseas. But that's up to the respective country to control that. Would these guys leave if West Jet was paying 100g's for an F/O? No....maybe...but probably not. I'm sure these guys see $$$ and new/decent equipment and companies that take care of their employee's.

But we in turn take in immigrants who are willing to accept min wage when it's a job that should be paying out 50-60.....leaving the guys here who want to stay in Canada suffer.

I have zero problem with ethnic diversity. But when things start driving our industry out of wack I get hot under the collar.

[JigglyBus]

Bob Sacamano wrote "Funny, lots of Canadians flying in the states, I guess they got no locals either"

..... Bob, seriously, where do you get your info?? Do you really think that these Canadians who are flying in the states are there on Visas??? Please tell me which visa they have, my immigration lawyer would love to know.

Are you talking about a Canadian with a green card (ie via family or otherwise)????. There are no, read again NO! pilots who have immigrated to the USA LEGALLY on work visas (other than instructors, ie 'teachers'). There is no 'points based' immigration in the US that could allow commercial pilots to immigrate.

Just because your friend Bob's parents were born in the US, and he was able to get a green card/passport, doesn't mean there are Canadian Pilots working in the US.

And, you being a veteran to this site, should know better than that.

Research first, talk second.

[classiv]

As for Canadian and US pilots flying overseas (which is a benefit for the Canadian pilot job market... less competition), remember this:

The days of the expat Canadian, US or Brit pilot are coming to an end in Asia, and probably the rest of the world too.

The Asian countries are bringing their own pilots up through the system and soon they will no longer need foreign captains.

Believe me, globalism is a farce. It only exists in the minds of the Starbucks 20 something crowd, and then only in a very superficial way. Asian countries don't even bother giving lip service to the global job market and workplace "diversity"; they are as intensely nationalistic and racist as they come.

The Asian carriers would take a local any day over some trouble-making, headache inducing, pain-in-the-ass foreign Captain who looks down his big white nose at the Asian way of of doing things and doesn't even bother to try to learn the local language.

The foreign carriers: They don't want you, and the foreign pilots will be gone they second they can get qualified locals to do the job (and that time is approaching very fast).

[FEDUP123]

Let's just look at a time line scenario. We'll look at 2 pilots...

Pilot A has the legal right to only work in Canada, no dual citizenships or anything of the sort. He trains in Canada.

Pilot B is from an eastern country where the airlines are literally growing faster than pilots can be trained and aircraft built. (don't kid yourself, this is happening, read the issue of wings magazine...) This pilot comes to train in Canada because
1) we're just about the cheapest in the world(developed nation anyways) 2) the training is fantastic
3)there just aren't enough instructors and aircraft in his home country to fulfill demand.
4)OH AND THE MONEY SHOT.... because our government will effin pay for it!!!

Both start the CPL course on (01 Jan 05) we'll say.
Let's say the course takes exactly a year, and on (01 jan 2006) both finish with a CPL and Multi/IFR

Pilot A gets a ramp job here in Canada(lucky guy) and spends a year on the ramp(being generous)
Pilot B heads home, buys his type rating on either a 737 or A320 and within 3 months is sitting in the right seat of a shiny new jet as F/O.

Within a year (Jan 2007) their hours would look something like this:
Pilot A: 200hrs
Pilot B: 900hrs(700hrs Heavy jet time)

Pilot A has done a good job working for 10 bucks an hour up in nunavut away from his family and friends and is now moved to F/O on the Navajo(awsome!) and in the following year, logs 500multi and pulls in a sweet 24K paycheque!
Pilot B logs another 700hrs Heavy time, living at home, making a great salary(probably 60K+) and maybe has made captain by this point!

So as of Jan. 2008 hours look like:
Pilot A: 700TT (500 multi piston) + a broken back and empty bank account
Pilot B: 1600TT(1400 heavy jet) + "0" debt, money in the bank

Now Pilot B decides he wants to move to Canada for whatever reason, cheaper housing, higher standard of living, etc. and immigrates... it just so happens that Air Canada/Westjet/Canjet is hiring... well well, who are they going to hire?
Pilot A, a guy who has 700TT, 500 multi as F/O on a Navajo,
or
Pilot B, a guy who has 1400TT, a type rating and 1400hrs on 737's....?!?


So looks like pilot A has at least another 3-4 years to go of hard labour, selling himself etc, before making it close to the amount of hours and experience an airline is looking for. By that time, Pilot B will have made Captain, probably pulling in over 100k/year while Pilot A has been scraping by on 24-36/yr for the past 5 years.....While trying to pay off his debt from training, losing friends from being in the middle of BFN, missing out on christmas, birthdays, neices, nephews, etc you get the point.
And maybe, just maybe if he's lucky by the time he has enough hours and experience(turbine PIC) etc, this hiring boom WON'T be over and he WON'T be stuck in BFN working for peanuts perpetuating the cycle.


Does this sound fair to anyone?

[classiv]

Is it fair that Brad Pitt is better looking than me and makes more money?

I'm sorry, but life is not the boy scouts... companies do what is in their best interests. Being 'fair' has nothing to do with anything.

Wish I was wrong though.

As for you FO's in Eastern Europe flying 737's with 200 hours: I have friends in Eastern Europe (Polish nationals).

These new 737 jockeys are flying for peanuts. The company's are hiring a lot of Western Europeans who can afford to buy the type rating, and then basically pay them what you'd pay a gas station attendent.

[threepoint]

Let me share the amount of sympathy I hold for the majority of those out there that bemoan the current (and flawed) system: NIL. You may be distressed to know that there are PLENTY of foreign pilots well into their commercial training here right now who will go home very soon to take advantage of the current job boom. Many (not all) of those pilots will return to Canada in 2-3 years time - armed with 2000+ hours heavy jet time - to apply for carriers like AC as their new 777/787 order comes on line. It's not a possibility, it's a reality.
So why do I hold little sympathy, especially as I am one who works hard to gain what hours I fly? Because there are many many many Canadian pilots who willingly work domestically for free, or who accept embarrassingly low wages, or who pay for their own PPC to work right seat in a Navajo and perpetuate the cycle. You gets what you deserves. I fully recognise the slim margins under which many flight schools and commercial operations work. But if the pilot community would collectively demand a decent living wage instead of pimping themselves out in the vain hopes of acquiring offal in the form of an hour here and an hour there, then perhaps we'd get some respect and fairness. But if one pilot wants to gain personal ground by screwing those that follow - we have no hope of rectifying the situation. You know it, I know it, but nothing will change for years and years...perhaps until the 'accent on the radio' is Canadian, eh?
It ain't the owner's fault for being unscrupulous. If you owned the operation and you paid the overhead & wages, you too would prefer to pay pennies instead of real dollars to your staff. Yes you would.
Quit whining - do something. Funny how all these pilots who worked for these allegedly shady operations were always 'about to leave' or 'about to demand changes' but never managed to do just that. It begs the question: what were you doing there in the first place?
If you find yourself working for peanuts or flying ill-equipped or poorly-maintained aircraft and are unhappy about it, remember who applied for the job (you did) and what's preventing you from leaving (nothing).

[classiv]

what's preventing you from leaving (nothing).

1. Well, most pilots live paycheck to paycheck, meaning that most have no savings which means that without an income you can't pay your rent.

2. It's hard transitioning from aviation to non-aviation employment. Most non-aviation employers when they see pilot on your resume will loose interest in you right away. I speak from experience on this one.


You want to help but a dent in all the BS?

It's been said a hundred times before, regulate the supply of pilots. It's way too easy to become a pilot in this country, creating a large surplus of pilots on the market and the cut-throat competition that leads to pilots paying to work for free or putting up with shady operators like Sonic Blue.

Pilots like to think of themselves as "professionals"... it's a joke, you may be paid to do a job and do it well, granted, but you're not a true professional like a Doctor or a Lawyer, or even a Notary Public.

Military pilots though I think are a real exception to this. To get into the military it's tough which is totoally unlike civil aviation where any moron who can burrow 35 grand can get his licenses.