CaptainKirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:35 am Flight instructing in Cessna is an entry level job unless you own the flight school. Most people in any industry don’t stay in an entry position. They naturally want better opportunities. And no there is nothing decent about making 30k-40k/year.

CaptainKirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:35 am Flight instructing in Cessna is an entry level job unless you own the flight school. Most people in any industry don’t stay in an entry position.

CaptainKirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:35 am They naturally want better opportunities.

CaptainKirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:35 am And no there is nothing decent about making 30k-40k/year.

Conflicting Traffic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:22 pm

CaptainKirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:35 am Flight instructing in Cessna is an entry level job unless you own the flight school. Most people in any industry don’t stay in an entry position.

Being an entry level instructor is an entry level position. Being a professional instructor is potentially a career role.

CaptainKirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:35 am They naturally want better opportunities.

How do you define "better"? "Here's more money, but you can forget about having a life." is not objectively better.

CaptainKirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:35 am And no there is nothing decent about making 30k-40k/year.

I thought you said instructing was an entry level job? Making $30-40k.yr might suck, but in an entry level position, it's not terrible. Right seat regional airline pilots don't make much more than that. Further to that, any instructor who is making $40k or less isn't working very hard. A full time instructor should be able to bill at least 1500 hours a year (maybe not during COVID, I don't know about that, but in normal times). Is there anyone paying Class IV's less than $30/hr? I don't know the answer to that either, but if they're out there, I would recommend not working for them. So the lowest paid instructor on the payscale should have no problem making at least $45k/yr. Nobody's going to get rich making that, but for an apprentice role with room to grow, it's not a bad start.

The question is what happens to your compensation as you progress. The vast majority of instructors can't answer that question because by the time they have enough experience to be of any real value, they've moved on to something else.

In the last line-instructor role I held (no supervisory duties), I made $80k/yr plus a good benefits package. I was home every night and didn't work weekends. Now I'm building a freelance business, and while it takes some effort to do the marketing, I'm on track to build it to a $120-140k/yr income after all the COVID mess settles down. I guess I could just stay where I am as a regional captain and let the job consume my entire life while I make $110-130k/yr, but that really doesn't seem like a good trade to me (and I'm certainly not the only one).

But you keep on spreading the myth that instructors can't make money. That way, fewer people will do it, and I'll be in higher demand:).

Conflicting Traffic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:22 pm
A full time instructor should be able to bill at least 1500 hours a year (maybe not during COVID, I don't know about that, but in normal times).

In the last line-instructor role I held (no supervisory duties), I made $80k/yr plus a good benefits package. I was home every night and didn't work weekends. Now I'm building a freelance business, and while it takes some effort to do the marketing, I'm on track to build it to a $120-140k/yr income after all the COVID mess settles down. I guess I could just stay where I am as a regional captain and let the job consume my entire life while I make $110-130k/yr, but that really doesn't seem like a good trade to me (and I'm certainly not the only one).

But you keep on spreading the myth that instructors can't make money. That way, fewer people will do it, and I'll be in higher demand:).

airway wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:21 pm

Conflicting Traffic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:22 pm
A full time instructor should be able to bill at least 1500 hours a year (maybe not during COVID, I don't know about that, but in normal times).

In the last line-instructor role I held (no supervisory duties), I made $80k/yr plus a good benefits package. I was home every night and didn't work weekends. Now I'm building a freelance business, and while it takes some effort to do the marketing, I'm on track to build it to a $120-140k/yr income after all the COVID mess settles down. I guess I could just stay where I am as a regional captain and let the job consume my entire life while I make $110-130k/yr, but that really doesn't seem like a good trade to me (and I'm certainly not the only one).

But you keep on spreading the myth that instructors can't make money. That way, fewer people will do it, and I'll be in higher demand:).

​I don't know how much your hourly rate is but most schools in Canada charge about $70/hour for an instructor.

1500 hours/year X $70/hour = $105,000 minus overhead

$130,000/year as a regional Capt. with pension, benefits, 6 weeks paid vacation, 15-18 days/month working (not sure how that consumes your entire life), not thinking about your job on your time off, seems like a good trade to me.

the-minister31 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:04 pm

airway wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:21 pm

Conflicting Traffic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:22 pm
A full time instructor should be able to bill at least 1500 hours a year (maybe not during COVID, I don't know about that, but in normal times).

In the last line-instructor role I held (no supervisory duties), I made $80k/yr plus a good benefits package. I was home every night and didn't work weekends. Now I'm building a freelance business, and while it takes some effort to do the marketing, I'm on track to build it to a $120-140k/yr income after all the COVID mess settles down. I guess I could just stay where I am as a regional captain and let the job consume my entire life while I make $110-130k/yr, but that really doesn't seem like a good trade to me (and I'm certainly not the only one).

But you keep on spreading the myth that instructors can't make money. That way, fewer people will do it, and I'll be in higher demand:).

​I don't know how much your hourly rate is but most schools in Canada charge about $70/hour for an instructor.

1500 hours/year X $70/hour = $105,000 minus overhead

$130,000/year as a regional Capt. with pension, benefits, 6 weeks paid vacation, 15-18 days/month working (not sure how that consumes your entire life), not thinking about your job on your time off, seems like a good trade to me.

You forget that the 70$/h goes to the flight school, not the instructor.

A class 4/3 makes around 25$ an hour. Class 2/1 makes around 35$/h.

the-minister31 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:23 pm Couldn't have said it better myself, except that most flight school (in Quebec at least) pay around 25$/h for a class 3/4. So 35-40k/y seems about right. But most 702/703 pay around 30-35k/y for a first year FO!

airway wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:21 pm ​I don't know how much your hourly rate is but most schools in Canada charge about $70/hour for an instructor.

1500 hours/year X $70/hour = $105,000 minus overhead

airway wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:21 pm ​$130,000/year as a regional Capt. with pension, benefits, 6 weeks paid vacation, 15-18 days/month working (not sure how that consumes your entire life)

airway wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:21 pm ​not thinking about your job on your time off

airway wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:21 pm ​seems like a good trade to me.

Bede wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:45 am I think you’re under charging though. What other profession, trade, etc works for $70? Not mechanics, not barbers, not plumbers.

Bede wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:45 am I think you’ll find that the price demand curve maybe be backwards. You charge more you’ll get more business. People with their own planes have money. They want the best instructor money can buy.

Bede wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:45 am I think you’re under charging though. What other profession, trade, etc works for $70? Not mechanics, not barbers, not plumbers.

Bede wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:45 am People with their own planes have money. They want the best instructor money can buy.

Bede wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:45 am People with their own planes have money. They want the best instructor money can buy.

Conflicting Traffic wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:54 pm

Bede wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:45 am I think you’re under charging though. What other profession, trade, etc works for $70? Not mechanics, not barbers, not plumbers.

You're right. But my take is that 1) I'm an unknown quantity to the local GA community, 2) I'm new to freelancing, and 3) I'm (temporarily) doing this part-time, which means my students have to tolerate scheduling difficulties for now. So, while I get that $70 is low, it's not you-must-be-outa-your-mind low. Once I've built a local client base and reputation, I can start increasing it to something more reasonable/sustainable.

Bede wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:45 am I think you’ll find that the price demand curve maybe be backwards. You charge more you’ll get more business. People with their own planes have money. They want the best instructor money can buy.

This is an excellent point. And while I've given it some consideration, I'm a little gun-shy about pricing myself out of the market before I even get started. This is probably just my lack of (freelancing) experience speaking.

photofly wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:33 am If the average plumber took 72 hours to fix your sink you’d play them a lot less than $70 per hour.

photofly wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:33 am Charging a lot doesn’t make you the best instructor money can buy. It makes you the most expensive instructor money can buy.

Aviatard wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:30 am

Bede wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:45 am People with their own planes have money. They want the best instructor money can buy.

You’d think so but that has not been my experience. Rather, people want Walmart flight training, as cheap as possible. I’ve had a guy with a brand new 182 try to knock my rates down because they were within $5 per hour of a local FTU.

Conflicting Traffic wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:34 am

airway wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:21 pm ​I don't know how much your hourly rate is but most schools in Canada charge about $70/hour for an instructor.

1500 hours/year X $70/hour = $105,000 minus overhead

My rate right now is $70/hr plus a group instruction surcharge. That puts me at the low end of freelancers, which I find acceptable because I'm new to the freelancing world and I expect to be able to increase the rate in the not-too-distant future. In practice, overhead costs are unimportant. This is because freelance income is taxed differently than employee income. Among other differences, overhead costs are tax-deductible. If you make an apples-to-apples comparison between a freelancer and an employee at the same pay rate, the freelancer will usually be better off -- even accounting for the value of the benefits package the employee may have.

Most freelancers figure out a way to generate additional income -- being a freelancer is inherently entrepreneurial. I have two additional income streams, one is significant but cuts into my ability to bill as an instructor (it's still in the flight training industry), the other not so significant, but that doesn't interfere with my ability to bill. As I said, I'm on track to build a business that generates an income in the 120-140k range. If I'm lucky, there's potential to do quite a bit better than that, but that depends significantly on luck.

Freelancing aside, it's absolutely possible to make a six-figure income as an instructor at an FTU. Adjusted for inflation, I've done it. And there are plenty of others who have as well.

airway wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:21 pm ​$130,000/year as a regional Capt. with pension, benefits, 6 weeks paid vacation, 15-18 days/month working (not sure how that consumes your entire life)

Regional captains don't work 15-18 days a month. They work 18 days a month. Which is exactly how much full time office drones work. Except the office drones sleep in their own bed at night and don't work weekends or Christmas. Now I confess that I'm a commuter, and that plays a significant role in my assessment of the airline quality of life. But about half of airline pilots are commuters, so my experience is not unusual. Non-commuters can take advantage of single-day pairings and reserve to get time at home. But those pilots aren't making $130k.

airway wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:21 pm ​not thinking about your job on your time off

When I'm working as an employee at a flight school, I'm not thinking about my job on my time off. Do people do that?

airway wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:21 pm ​seems like a good trade to me.

Then you should continue. I didn't say that the airline choice is bad. I said that it isn't objectively good. And I stand by that. Every choice is a tradeoff. Whether the tradeoff is good or bad depends largely on personal preferences and circumstances. If your personal preferences and circumstances mean that the airline choice is a good choice, then you should pursue that career.

The OP's position is that instructing is not a "real" job (only implied in this thread, but stated verbatim in another thread), and that you should only instruct to timebuild and move on. The get-your-hours-and-move-on attitude is poison to this entire industry -- not just to the training side of things. Anyone who's trying to build a social media brand on the philosophy of "airline pilots are real pilots and everyone else is a timebuilder wannabe" should be called out as the hack that they are.

His position is that you can't make money as an instructor, which is demonstrably false, and that you can't have a career as an instructor, which is also demonstrably false. Further, he's pushing his audience (what little of it there is) to instruct for hours with no consideration given to the quality of instruction provided -- which is heavily influenced by ones desire to actually teach. As I've noted, this approach is poison to this industry.

Bede wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:51 am

photofly wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:33 am If the average plumber took 72 hours to fix your sink you’d play them a lot less than $70 per hour.

It takes them that long to plumb a house and install the boiler and the infloor heating.

photofly wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:33 am Charging a lot doesn’t make you the best instructor money can buy. It makes you the most expensive instructor money can buy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

CaptainKirk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:52 am Actually, I have to clarify that being a Flight Instructor was one of the most rewarding aspects of my career. I've personally sent dozens of students solo. And sent many more for a successful flight test. Unfortunately I couldn't afford to be one for very long and left as a class 2.