Air Tindi
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Re: Air Tindi
His point is made in response to someone mumbling about "...air in tanks" which is what you say when you're too cowardly to accuse another pilot of fuel mismanagement. He offered a different view from the president of Air Tindi.
I’m am not a coward, I said it was rumoured to be lack of fuel. Now that is fact, yes they were idiots to depart with insufficient fuel.
I’m am not a coward, I said it was rumoured to be lack of fuel. Now that is fact, yes they were idiots to depart with insufficient fuel.
Re: Air Tindi
How accurate are the fuel gauges in a twin otter?
Is there a reliable way to dip the tanks?
Is there a reliable way to dip the tanks?
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Air Tindi
They didn't even make it 1/2 way.
Unless the guages were grossly lying, this has nothing to do with them.
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Re: Air Tindi
removed
Last edited by LurkingRaven on Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Tindi
I'm sure it's easy to say that in hindsight, but I highly doubt that anyone would knowingly leave without enough fuel to complete a trip.sunk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:00 pm His point is made in response to someone mumbling about "...air in tanks" which is what you say when you're too cowardly to accuse another pilot of fuel mismanagement. He offered a different view from the president of Air Tindi.
I’m am not a coward, I said it was rumoured to be lack of fuel. Now that is fact, yes they were idiots to depart with insufficient fuel.
Re: Air Tindi
No one purposefully leaves with not enough fuel to make it, but plenty of people cut corners out of greed or laziness.
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Re: Air Tindi
With the distance flown, I’m assuming they had 30 mins of fuel left when they departed, which represents minimum day VFR reserve from the previous flight.
I can only assume someone forgot to order fuel, or departed before getting the fuel from their supplier.
In relation to the president’s comment re: the potential engine failure, the Twin Otter has two separate belly tanks, each of them feeding their own engine. Assuming one engine burns a few extra pounds per hour, the first engine will eventually run out of fuel, then after doing the shutdown drill and run some checks, maybe call company, divert to the closest airport, which then your second engine will fail on you due to fuel starvation in it’s assigned tank.
Seems like this is the most plausible scenario. As of why someone doesn’t check for fuel before taxing out, I’m looking forward to read a 100 page report that will outline exactly what is the swiss cheese model.
I can only assume someone forgot to order fuel, or departed before getting the fuel from their supplier.
In relation to the president’s comment re: the potential engine failure, the Twin Otter has two separate belly tanks, each of them feeding their own engine. Assuming one engine burns a few extra pounds per hour, the first engine will eventually run out of fuel, then after doing the shutdown drill and run some checks, maybe call company, divert to the closest airport, which then your second engine will fail on you due to fuel starvation in it’s assigned tank.
Seems like this is the most plausible scenario. As of why someone doesn’t check for fuel before taxing out, I’m looking forward to read a 100 page report that will outline exactly what is the swiss cheese model.
Re: Air Tindi
I seem to remember a Twin Otter(possibly Borek) on floats that had a faulty fuel guage(or guages) and they were dipping the tanks to measure them with some sort of measuring device that turned out to be inaccurate. An engine flamed out and they landed on a lake with less fuel than they thought they would have at that point when they departed. Anyone remember that?
Overall, I would say the main tank guages are pretty good while wing tip guages(if installed) were less reliable(subject to confirmation by others).
Re: Air Tindi
We had that happen once on a larger aircraft. An F/O that had a history of problems and an old time captain known for being slack. Not sure why they were not refueled.RegionalPilot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:21 pm
I can only assume someone forgot to order fuel, or departed before getting the fuel from their supplier.
The was a long pre-flight checklist which some captains expected to have been completed by the F/O by the time the captain came on board, which was sometimes very close to departure time after chatting away in dispatch.
I suspect that the checklist was done with the fuel not uplifted yet and was forgotten or the checklist was never done.
At least these guys caught it while taxiing out and had to taxi back. Maybe the told the pax that the forecast had changed creating a requirement for more fuel.
Therefore, I never did this checklist until fuelling was complete.
Last edited by pelmet on Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Tindi
Stolen from facebook
How can you tell which one is the pilot when you walk into a bar?....Don't worry he will come up and tell you.
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Re: Air Tindi
I've seen this picture and a few others now. Looks like the nose gear is sunk or bent back and the main is angled back a bit. Some wrinkling on the nose but that's it for visible damage from what I was able to see, obviously there will be significant structural damage after landing in half frozen swamp. There's some muck on top of the cockpit. Props and wings don't look like they touched anything. TBH, it looks like they sat it down at very low speed, threw up some swamp water and came to a sudden stop.
Re: Air Tindi
At least the engines weren't running.Frozenwhirlybird wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:09 am Props and wings don't look like they touched anything.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Air Tindi
Sunset was about 540pm and it sounds like they touched down in the dark at 647 pm. Lots of march meadows north of Providence but they were very lucky to get down safely in the dark.
It is alleged they ran out of fuel. If they did it would go something like this:
Things probably got real for them when a low fuel light illuminated. Then the other tank low fuel light came on and the oh F@#K sense came over them. About 15 minutes after the forward tank low fuel light illuminated the number 1 engine flamed out. The number 2 engine would have flamed out about 20 minutes after the rear tank low fuel light illuminated.
Twin otter fuel gauges are usually fairly accurate and the low fuel lights are very accurate.
That is the way it goes in the Twin otter running out of fuel. I have never been in that position in the Twin Otter, but I know that if you the low fuel lights on, you want to be on the ground ASAP!
It is alleged they ran out of fuel. If they did it would go something like this:
Things probably got real for them when a low fuel light illuminated. Then the other tank low fuel light came on and the oh F@#K sense came over them. About 15 minutes after the forward tank low fuel light illuminated the number 1 engine flamed out. The number 2 engine would have flamed out about 20 minutes after the rear tank low fuel light illuminated.
Twin otter fuel gauges are usually fairly accurate and the low fuel lights are very accurate.
That is the way it goes in the Twin otter running out of fuel. I have never been in that position in the Twin Otter, but I know that if you the low fuel lights on, you want to be on the ground ASAP!
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Re: Air Tindi
It's amazing what you can do with a twin when you're lightFrozenwhirlybird wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:09 amit looks like they sat it down at very low speed, threw up some swamp water and came to a sudden stop.
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Re: Air Tindi
More than likely the case. Station 60 (the bulkhead that the nosegear is attached to) is generally regarded as being the weakest point on the Twin Otter. Lot of work to fix, but most of the Twin Otters I've flown have had it repaired at one point or another.Frozenwhirlybird wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:09 amI've seen this picture and a few others now. Looks like the nose gear is sunk or bent back and the main is angled back a bit. Some wrinkling on the nose but that's it for visible damage from what I was able to see, obviously there will be significant structural damage after landing in half frozen swamp. There's some muck on top of the cockpit. Props and wings don't look like they touched anything. TBH, it looks like they sat it down at very low speed, threw up some swamp water and came to a sudden stop.
Re: Air Tindi
Unless I've forgotten my geography of that area, divert to the nearest highway might have been the best option.RegionalPilot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:21 pm Assuming one engine burns a few extra pounds per hour, the first engine will eventually run out of fuel, then after doing the shutdown drill and run some checks, maybe call company, divert to the closest airport,
Regardless of whatever criticism might be directed at the crew over fuel exhaustion, it happened. When it did, they flew with what they had left and they did a good job of that. Was there any moon that night? I don't think so.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
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Re: Air Tindi
There is no nearest highway. Where they went down, they already passed thru what looks like HWY 5. Too low I assume to glide back toward the road.cncpc wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:48 pmUnless I've forgotten my geography of that area, divert to the nearest highway might have been the best option.RegionalPilot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:21 pm Assuming one engine burns a few extra pounds per hour, the first engine will eventually run out of fuel, then after doing the shutdown drill and run some checks, maybe call company, divert to the closest airport,
Regardless of whatever criticism might be directed at the crew over fuel exhaustion, it happened. When it did, they flew with what they had left and they did a good job of that. Was there any moon that night? I don't think so.
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Re: Air Tindi
Highway is on the other side of providence. It’s now been slung out, a couple pics floating around somewhere.cncpc wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:48 pmUnless I've forgotten my geography of that area, divert to the nearest highway might have been the best option.RegionalPilot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:21 pm Assuming one engine burns a few extra pounds per hour, the first engine will eventually run out of fuel, then after doing the shutdown drill and run some checks, maybe call company, divert to the closest airport,
Regardless of whatever criticism might be directed at the crew over fuel exhaustion, it happened. When it did, they flew with what they had left and they did a good job of that. Was there any moon that night? I don't think so.
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Re: Air Tindi
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Re: Air Tindi
I'm late to the bash fest but has a fuel leak been ruled out? it seems really odd to me that they were that short.