Air operator Certificate

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AhmetSalim
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Air operator Certificate

Post by AhmetSalim »

Quick question,


I am a low time, new Commercial Pilot License holder in Canada. 3 weeks ago, I created my personal website from a help of web designer to get some flight hours and support myself. . The website was about flight tour business for those who wants to do flight tour around Niagara and Toronto. Basically, my plan was renting an aircraft from flight school and provide flight tour to people.
Last week, I got notified from a flight school that I can’t carry those flights without having an operating certificate from Transport Canada permitting a Commercial Air Service.

Even though I was not aware of the Certifications involved in the process, (I have not done any flights with anyone from website),the chief instructor of flight school already notified Transport Canada about the website that was on internet.

I’m curious that even though I was not aware of air Certification involved until I got notified from school, Will i be get a charge from TC?

Note; I have not done any flight tours with anyone from the website since the website did not last that much. I deleted my website business after realizing I need air operator Certificate to carry those flights
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Conflicting Traffic
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

AhmetSalim wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:45 pm I am a low time, new Commercial Pilot License holder in Canada. 3 weeks ago, I created my personal website from a help of web designer to get some flight hours and support myself. . The website was about flight tour business for those who wants to do flight tour around Niagara and Toronto. Basically, my plan was renting an aircraft from flight school and provide flight tour to people.
Last week, I got notified from a flight school that I can’t carry those flights without having an operating certificate from Transport Canada permitting a Commercial Air Service.
So, first question: How do you hold a Commercial Pilot license and not know that you need an OC to offer an Air Transport Service? At this point, you should be questioning your own knowledge level (and therefore your ability to operate safely as a Commercial Pilot), what other basic facts about flight operations don't you know?
AhmetSalim wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:45 pm I’m curious that even though I was not aware of air Certification involved until I got notified from school ...
Being unaware is irrelevant. You hold a CPL. The requirements to operate an Air Transport Service is required knowledge of a CPL holder. Being unaware just calls your competence into question.
AhmetSalim wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:45 pm ... Will i be get a charge from TC?

Note; I have not done any flight tours with anyone from the website since the website did not last that much. I deleted my website business after realizing I need air operator Certificate to carry those flights
This is an interesting question. To me, the answer isn't clear -- although to a lawyer (or someone who has experience with TC Enforcement or the TATC) it might be.
CAR 101.01 wrote: air transport service means a commercial air service that is operated for the purpose of transporting persons, personal belongings, baggage, goods or cargo in an aircraft between two points;
First you need to determine if putting up a website and advertising a service constitutes "operated" given that you didn't actually move any aircraft. I could see this being argued either way. Maybe someone who knows the law better than I do or is familiar with some case law could settle this.

If advertising constitutes "operated", then you're in violation of CAR 700.02.
CAR 700.02 (in part) wrote: 700.02 (1) No person shall operate an air transport service unless the person holds and complies with the provisions of an air operator certificate that authorizes the person to operate that service.

...
In that case, you have to determine if TC will use their discretion to take enforcement action against you. I don't know the answer to that either, but I would certainly consider it a possibility. MAYBE if they contact you and you focus on the facts that you didn't actually endanger the public and that you have learned from your mistake, then maybe they would opt not to take enforcement action. Emphasize "I've learned from my mistake and won' do it again", NOT "but I didn't know!".
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Conflicting Traffic please advise.
Ozinater
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by Ozinater »

The flight school is correct, what you are describing is a commercial air service, and that would require you to have a 703 OC to operate it legally. Just having a CPL and access to an airplane is not sufficient.

TC takes "chisel charters" pretty seriously. I can't speak for them, but given that you took the website down and never actually conducted any of these flights, they may be inclined to just let you off with a warning or cease & desist. I would echo the post above and recommend that you not simply plead ignorance if you are contacted by TC enforcement. They would probably rather hear that you learned from your mistake and won't repeat it. Just stating that you don't deserve to be reprimanded because you weren't aware of what's written in the CARs is not a very good defence imho.
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lownslow
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by lownslow »

It sounds like no offences actually took place. You may get a call from TC to explain the matter but I doubt they’d have anything to fine you for.
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Bede
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by Bede »

Advertising is not the same as operating. To be an offense, there must have been an exchange of money or valuable consideration.

To be blunt, I am really surprised that you don't know this as a CPL holder. This is about the most basic thing in the CAR's, especially for the CPL, and the largest fine (I think) you can get from TC.

Glad you learned your lesson though.
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Bradley Tucker
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by Bradley Tucker »

It has all been said above, I would recommend that you go back and review the CARs. I would not be hiring a commercial pilot that pulls stunts like this. I would be concerned what other regulations get broke while I as an operations manager would be responsible.

The "I was not aware of air Certification involved until I got notified from school" is not a defense, it is your responsibility as a professional pilot to know the regulations and if not sure ask the question.

The other thing that should have been a clue is that why was no one else doing? Because it is illegal!!!
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piperdriver
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by piperdriver »

This is basic knowledge. How in the @#$! did you pass the written CPL???
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Cessna 180
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by Cessna 180 »

You should consider yourself lucky the CFI found out before you operated one of these illegal charters.
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ReserveTank
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by ReserveTank »

piperdriver wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:00 pm This is basic knowledge. How in the @#$! did you pass the written CPL???
With a 60% passmark, TC is fine to let you fly around not knowing 40% of what you should know. OP, just tell 'em you got the question wrong.
Cessna 180 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:10 pm You should consider yourself lucky the CFI found out before you operated one of these illegal charters.
Had he operated such a flight, the FTU could have had its FTUOC pulled.
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photofly
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by photofly »

Alright everyone, I think he’s got the message by now. The world could have ended, and all of aviation could have been sucked into a spiral discontinuity in the space time continuum if his plan had gone ahead. Luckily the day was saved and nobody was hurt.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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PeterParker
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by PeterParker »

Really would love to know if everyone using this opportunity to bash the living daylights out of OP has never done anything that would involve breaking even one CAR in their entire aviation career… Most brand new pilots whether CPL or PPL are still trying to get their feet located for firm footing as their come out of their flight schools. Your holier than thou attitudes are not helping the poor person trying to find answers.

To the OP, as some of the posters have mentioned, don’t plead ignorance of the CARs, but definitely do get in touch with a lawyer and make sure you produce evidence or lack thereof of having operated as a chisel charter. You should be able to get away with just a rap on the knuckles from TC.

Also, use this opportunity to really go through CAR 700 in more detail because your career depends on it for most part unless you end up working for a flight school (406) or a private operator (604). Also, try to understand the differences between 702, 703, 704 and 705.
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PilotDAR
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by PilotDAR »

For my (happily) few experiences with TC Enforcement (Okay, I reported myself once...), I have found them to be entirely approachable and reasonable, as long as: You obviously understand that you made a mistake, you explain your commitment to not do it again, and they believe that what you actually did was an innocent error, and didn't really create a public risk.
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digits_
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by digits_ »

No need to get in touch with a lawyer at this point. If enforcement goes after you, you will have plenty of time to contact a lawyer.

If TC contacts you, try to get what they say in writing. At the very least, keep a log of who you talked to and when.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
sjatana
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by sjatana »

Ahmet,

You made a mistake and without a doubt have learned from it. That's called life. As a CPL holder, you are still exercising the privilege's of your private pilot license when you take your friends or family up :)

To help you moving forward with your time building, what I did in the past when I was building time as a PPL holder was take payment only to cover some of the cost of the fuel when I was purchasing block time with dry hours.

Please reference CARS 401.28(1):

401.28 (1) The holder of a private pilot licence shall not act as the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder
(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;
(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;
(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and
(d) receives a reimbursement that
(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and
(ii) is for the purpose of sharing the costs of fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

Good luck with your training moving forward.
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Bradley Tucker
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by Bradley Tucker »

sjatana wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:47 am Ahmet,

You made a mistake and without a doubt have learned from it. That's called life. As a CPL holder, you are still exercising the privilege's of your private pilot license when you take your friends or family up :)

To help you moving forward with your time building, what I did in the past when I was building time as a PPL holder was take payment only to cover some of the cost of the fuel when I was purchasing block time with dry hours.

Please reference CARS 401.28(1):

401.28 (1) The holder of a private pilot licence shall not act as the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder
(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;
(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;
(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and
(d) receives a reimbursement that
(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and
(ii) is for the purpose of sharing the costs of fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

Good luck with your training moving forward.
This is some great advice. I would add be cautious as reward could depending on the situation be the accumulation of flight time to advance your career and the other point to keep in the for front of your mine is this one "(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight;" If you take someone with you and they offer to reimburse some of the cost it is ok however if they ask you or you tell them you will take them if they cover the cost you are not back into were it could be considered be hired or receiving a reward.
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digits_
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by digits_ »

I am not sure how the holder of a CPL could be charged for violating CARS 401.28(1)
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Bede
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by Bede »

Bede wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:39 pm Advertising is not the same as operating. To be an offense, there must have been an exchange of money or valuable consideration.
On the flipside, the Canadian Transportation Agency could come after you for advertising a service.
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digits_
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by digits_ »

Bede wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:39 am
Bede wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:39 pm Advertising is not the same as operating. To be an offense, there must have been an exchange of money or valuable consideration.
On the flipside, the Canadian Transportation Agency could come after you for advertising a service.
The CTA only seems to list fines for advertising if it is about tarriffs that they rejected.

https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/types-contraventions-air

There is the one that says you can get fined for operating without a certificate, but not for advertising without a certificate. Is advertising considered part of operating? Can you advertise without operating?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Bede
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Re: Air operator Certificate

Post by Bede »

Yes. I believe Chrono Aviation got a fine recently for advertising something they didn't have a license for.
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