C of R Question

[780Pilot]

When it comes to the certificate of registration, is it possible to have 3 people on it at once? The form only shows two slots of individuals and 1 other for a company. I've gotten mixed input on this. Some say only the 2 slots on the form and no more, some say as many as you need.

[digits_]

I was told you could have as many registered owners as you want, but only 2 are listed on the C of R. I could not find an official source though, just rumours and experiences from other pilots.

[780Pilot]

Ohk. The issue is I’ve got 3 people that bought a plane together. They all want PPLs. The issue is they all need to be on the C of R for the training or no dice. Sounds like they got some issues to sort out. They thought cause they bought it under their hold co it would all be set. Didn’t bother to read the CARs at all about training in an aircraft.

[digits_]

The issue is they all need to be on the C of R for the training or no dice.

Who requires this?
C of R doesn't prove ownership.

[780Pilot]

The issue is they all need to be on the C of R for the training or no dice.

Who requires this?
C of R doesn't prove ownership.

CAR 406.03. Only matters for the PPL, anything past isn’t an issue. It’s a way to protect FTU holders. No examiner will touch the plane if their name isn’t on the C of R for the PPL flight test.

[photofly]

+1 that they don't need to be on the C of R. They do need to be an owner, but that's not the same as being on the C or R. So I would have some kind of documentation in a drawer (bill of sale etc.) for the very unlikely outcome that they ever do need to show that they meet the requirement of being an owner.

No examiner will touch the plane if their name isn’t on the C of R for the PPL flight test.

I don't think that's true (and it's a very sweeping statement considering the number of examiners in the country.) They also don't need to be an owner for the plane in which they do their flight test, just the plane in which they carry out the required training. TC makes quite a song and dance that the flight test flight doesn't count towards any of the training requirements, and the examiner is the PIC, so who cares who owns *that* aircraft?

Looking at it further, if you do the training in an aircraft that you don't own (and doesn't come from an FTU) that's not your problem. it's still arguably valid training and flight time. It's the person who "operates" the flight training service who commits the offence. In the case of a freelance flight instructor, it would be the instructor who was in trouble, not the student.

[780Pilot]

Here is the CAR reference.

406.03 (1) Subject to subsections (2) and (3), no person shall operate a flight training service in Canada using an aeroplane or helicopter in Canada unless the person holds a flight training unit operator certificate that authorizes the person to operate the service and complies with the conditions and operations specifications set out in the certificate.

(2) A person who does not hold a flight training unit operator certificate may operate a flight training service if

(a) the person holds a private operator registration document or an air operator certificate, the aircraft used for training — in the case of the holder of an air operator certificate — is specified in the air operator certificate, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit — recreational, a private pilot licence, a commercial pilot licence or a flight instructor rating; or

(b) the trainee is

(i) the owner, or a member of the family of the owner, of the aircraft used for training,

(ii) a director of a corporation that owns the aircraft used for training, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit — recreational or a private pilot licence, or

(iii) using an aircraft that has been obtained from a person who is at arm’s length from the flight instructor, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit — recreational or a private pilot licence.

[photofly]

RIght. And that doesn't mention anything about a certificate of registration.

[780Pilot]

RIght. And that doesn't mention anything about a certificate of registration.

A private operator registration document would fall under that no?

[digits_]

Nowhere does it require their name to be on the C of R. Look at it this way, if they were family of the owner (also allowed), their name wouldn't be on the C of R either, and I doubt an examiner would have an issue with tat.

[digits_]

RIght. And that doesn't mention anything about a certificate of registration.

A private operator registration document would fall under that no?

That's for 2 (a)

You would be using 2 (b) (i)

[780Pilot]

I've gotta play under 2 (a) though. 2 (b) iii states it can't be toward PPL training.

[digits_]

I've gotta play under 2 (a) though. 2 (b) iii states it can't be toward PPL training.

With 2 (b) i you can

2 (a) can not be used for PPL training. 2 (b) iii can not be used for PPL training either. But 2 (b) i can, and that is what you would be using in your situation.

[780Pilot]

Thanks. I’m gonna get a hold of some of the contacts at TC I have too. I’m the instructor in this case and I’m not looking to get screwed over this. I know in PNR especially they have been going after freelancers doing things offside.

[cncpc]

The issue is they all need to be on the C of R for the training or no dice.

Who requires this?
C of R doesn't prove ownership.

It established an "owner" for the purposes of the Aeronautics Act. A beneficial owner is the person who actually owns the aircraft. He or she may also be the registered "owner". The other route is when the aircraft is registered on the basis of a lease. The Act says that the owner is the entity who has custody and control of the aircraft. The registered owner is the person who has custody and control of the aircraft, AND who has applied for a certificate of registration and is qualified to hold that document, i.e. is a Canadian citizen. If the registration basis is a lease, one of the mandatory terms of the lease, (CASS 216 (2), is that the lessee assumes custody and control of the aircraft during the term of the lease. Yes, there still is another person, entity, which actually owns the aircraft, but it is the registered owner Transport goes to if there is an issue.

An aircraft may not be registered at all. In theory, Transport doesn't care, because an unregistered aircraft can't be flown. Legally.

[photofly]

RIght. And that doesn't mention anything about a certificate of registration.

A private operator registration document would fall under that no?

You can’t get a PORD on any airplane you could use for PPL training, so it’s basically irrelevant.

I didn’t realize that “owner” is a defined term in the CARs and it’s the person with custody and control. And when there’s a change in the person with custody and control the aircraft registration has to be updated. So there is a chain of argument to say that only people who are registered with TC can train in (their own) aircraft. But as far as I know there’s no limit to the number of registered owners, and the non appearance of your name on the certificate doesn’t indicate you’re not an owner.

EDIT: here you are. This is the note on the registration form:

Section C: Note 6 – Attach copies of documents proving age and citizenship or permanent resident status. If there are more than two owners applying for registration, an additional sheet of paper should be attached to the application which lists those applicants' names, addresses, telephone numbers and signatures

[digits_]

The issue is they all need to be on the C of R for the training or no dice.

Who requires this?
C of R doesn't prove ownership.

It established an "owner" for the purposes of the Aeronautics Act. A beneficial owner is the person who actually owns the aircraft. He or she may also be the registered "owner". The other route is when the aircraft is registered on the basis of a lease. The Act says that the owner is the entity who has custody and control of the aircraft. The registered owner is the person who has custody and control of the aircraft, AND who has applied for a certificate of registration and is qualified to hold that document, i.e. is a Canadian citizen. If the registration basis is a lease, one of the mandatory terms of the lease, (CASS 216 (2), is that the lessee assumes custody and control of the aircraft during the term of the lease. Yes, there still is another person, entity, which actually owns the aircraft, but it is the registered owner Transport goes to if there is an issue.

An aircraft may not be registered at all. In theory, Transport doesn't care, because an unregistered aircraft can't be flown. Legally.

Fair enough. I am curious though how a hearing would go though if the beneficial owner who is not a registered owner, gets a ppl in his own airplane.

Small remark, you don't need to be a Canadian citizen to own a Canadian registered aircraft. Permanent resident is fine (and there other options as well I believe)

[photofly]

The only person whom enforcement would want to speak to if a person trained in a plane they didn’t “own” would be the person operating the training service, i.e. the instructor. That’s the only person commuting an infraction.

[Bede]

Fair enough. I am curious though how a hearing would go though if the beneficial owner who is not a registered owner, gets a ppl in his own airplane.

Hearing for whom? It would be the flight instructor on the hook. I doubt TC would even pursue such a case. The big issue is the flight instructor that does instruction in his own plane.

[CensoredLF]

We have 10 people listed on the C of R for our C150. We send a spreadsheet with all the names and addresses for every change. This happens once or twice a year

HTH
CLF

[Big Pistons Forever]

As a practical matter TC uses the C of R as a convenient way to indicate compliance with CAR 406.03 (2) ( i). If you are doing a PPL on a non FTU airplane and your name is on the C of R nobody at TC is going to look any farther. When I was doing freelance instructing I would not do any training for a PPL for somebody who was not on the C of R.

[cncpc]

Small remark, you don't need to be a Canadian citizen to own a Canadian registered aircraft. Permanent resident is fine (and there other options as well I believe)

Thanks. I didn't know the bit about permanent residents.