Turning 40, career change?

[C-172]

Hey folks, looking for some advice.

I was trying to find a school and start CPL back in March 2020, but then COVID hit.

I will be turning 40 this year, so that means 25 years of work ahead of me.

At my current job, opportunity for advancement it’s management roles and I definitely don’t want to do that, especially for 25 years.

If I want to complete my CPL and instructor rating without taking any loans, I have to do it part time and also use savings. This means only being able to have flight lessons to 2-4 times a week

To build hours after completing the CPL training, I am thinking instructing. I love teaching and I am good at it.
Because we have a mortgage, salary from just instructing won’t cut it. This means that I would have to work part time at my current job, and part-time doing flight instruction.

Like many others here, I’ve loved airplanes since I was a kid. Getting my private license a few years ago was a blast. Thats when I knew I wanted a career as a pilot.

Based on your knowledge and experience in the industry, what are your thoughts? What would you do if you were in my place?

Married with no kids, and we live in BC’s lower mainland.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and/or suggestions.

[altiplano]

What do you want or expect out of your career as a pilot?

Do you expect to do it all in Vancouver?

What sort of wage do you need to leave your old job?

To be honest, this is a career that doesn't lend itself well to part timing it, it takes commitment and typically sacrifice.

[Ovy]

I did it in my early 30’s, moved away from BC to pursue aviation. If I can figure out how to PM Id be happy to share my experience.

[C-172]

What do you want or expect out of your career as a pilot?

Do you expect to do it all in Vancouver?

What sort of wage do you need to leave your old job?

To be honest, this is a career that doesn't lend itself well to part timing it, it takes commitment and typically sacrifice.

What do you want or expect out of your career as a pilot?

Do you expect to do it all in Vancouver?

What sort of wage do you need to leave your old job?

To be honest, this is a career that doesn't lend itself well to part timing it, it takes commitment and typically sacrifice.

Thanks for the reply.

Fly for a living. Doesn’t matter having random schedules, time away from home, working holidays, less social life, etc.

Training and hour building a as a flight instructor, yes all in Vancouver. Landing a job with an airline, anywhere in Canada.

50k-60k. If its less it depends on how long, or if I have to move away while my wife stays in BC.

Part time will only be for flight training and hour building. Once landing a pilot job, that will full time.

[Arnie Pye]

I started at the age of 30. This is more than 10 years ago and it was a different market.

The good news is that now, you can likely skip working on the ramp for a couple of years while waiting for a first flying job. Once you have your first flying job, it won't take as long to move up to something better. Still companies are going to expect you to stay for a couple of years. Job hopping inside of a year or two isn't practical in this industry.

My first three jobs paid $30k, $35k and $37k per year. I was laid off of at one of those and spent a few months searching for the next one. Back then guys were going to Jazz with 5000 hours total time (read probably 6-7 years in the industry). I think it took me about 5 years to get back to making more than $50k/year.

The time to get to a regional has been greatly shortened now but the pay at any of the regionals is still in the high $30k to low $40k range. More good news is that you can probably still get to Air Canada as well. Your guess is as good as mine with how long the pandemic recovery will take. I would guess that someone starting today might take 7-10 years to get to Air Canada. It's purely speculation but 10 years from now, AC will still be offering 4 years of flat pay at $52k/year.

I'm in my late 40's and right now, all I'm thinking about is what my retirement will look like. This would be a significant factor in my decision making.

I'm not trying to talk you out of it. I enjoy going to work more often than not. Just do your budget carefully and determine what kind of lifestyle it will give you over the next 10 years or so and what impact that will have on retirement savings.

[altiplano]

What do you want or expect out of your career as a pilot?

Do you expect to do it all in Vancouver?

What sort of wage do you need to leave your old job?

To be honest, this is a career that doesn't lend itself well to part timing it, it takes commitment and typically sacrifice.

Thanks for the reply.

Fly for a living. Doesn’t matter having random schedules, time away from home, working holidays, less social life, etc.

Training and hour building a as a flight instructor, yes all in Vancouver. Landing a job with an airline, anywhere in Canada.

50k-60k. If its less it depends on how long, or if I have to move away while my wife stays in BC.

Part time will only be for flight training and hour building. Once landing a pilot job, that will full time.

OK... so a few thoughts...

I guess "airline" can be a broad term. Do you mean like a Boeing/ Airbus job? Or a RJ / Dash8 job? Or an Air Taxi / Commuter airline / any twin or turbine job?

If you want to get to a Boeing / Airbus airline or even a regional/charter/LCC airline, part time flight instructing alone is typically unlikely to get you there. You'll probably need to spend some time at the Air Taxi / Commuter type spot before maybe hopping to a regional type spot and then moving up from there.

These jobs typically aren't going to be $50-60K to start for a low timer. Vancouver has a few options, but you may find yourself having to go further afield to secure something.

Off these top of my head in YVR you have Pacific Coastal, CMA/NT, Carson... that may take a low time instructor. I'm guessing starting salary for right seat in a Beech is maybe around $35-40K... I'm sure someone here may be more up to speed on how the pay scales have evolved, I'm a little out of touch on that. An upgrade would get you the $50-60K+ you mention, what the upgrade timelines are currently, I don't know. but if you went with say 500 hours it's going to be a couple years at least.

Or if things pick up to where they were in 2019, you may be able to bypass the Air Taxi / Commuter step or at least spend less time there and quickly hop into somewhere like Jazz. I'm not sure if we'll see that again, but there's a lot of hope for it.

And that's the other thing, hope, we're hopefully on the backside of the worse aviation melt down in history. Are we out if it? Will there be more casualties? How will that affect the pilot job market going forward? 9/11 wasn't as bad as Covid has been for this business, and it was a desolate landscape trying to get any job as a wannabe in the early 2000s. Will the recovery here be better? Right now it looks like it, but Canada is hanging on to lockdowns and all that money dumped into propping up the economy is drying up... interest rates are about to rise...

Anyway, lots of things to think about...

If it were me and I was starting today I would push to go fast fast fast and get my CPL & MIFR, airports have lights, go after work and get it done, don't put limits on yourself, set a deadline and get to work. If you already have a PPL you should be able to finish by this summer. There's a loss of opportunity every month that you delay and you're not getting younger.

Then I'd start applying everywhere and I'd look wider than just in YVR. If you limit yourself to just a few operators for your first stepping stone what are you going to do if one of them never calls? Maybe then I'd see if there was a flight school that would hire me after I did an instructor rating while I kept pounding the pavement for a operational flying job.

Really if you want it, you have to commit, cut out the fall back position as soon as possible and go balls deep. This is a competitive industry to break into, do whatever it takes.

Good luck.

[rookiepilot]

Whats your wife say?

I upended our lives massively at 30. She was all in. That's not optional.

[C-172]

I started at the age of 30. This is more than 10 years ago and it was a different market.

The good news is that now, you can likely skip working on the ramp for a couple of years while waiting for a first flying job. Once you have your first flying job, it won't take as long to move up to something better. Still companies are going to expect you to stay for a couple of years. Job hopping inside of a year or two isn't practical in this industry.

My first three jobs paid $30k, $35k and $37k per year. I was laid off of at one of those and spent a few months searching for the next one. Back then guys were going to Jazz with 5000 hours total time (read probably 6-7 years in the industry). I think it took me about 5 years to get back to making more than $50k/year.

The time to get to a regional has been greatly shortened now but the pay at any of the regionals is still in the high $30k to low $40k range. More good news is that you can probably still get to Air Canada as well. Your guess is as good as mine with how long the pandemic recovery will take. I would guess that someone starting today might take 7-10 years to get to Air Canada. It's purely speculation but 10 years from now, AC will still be offering 4 years of flat pay at $52k/year.

I'm in my late 40's and right now, all I'm thinking about is what my retirement will look like. This would be a significant factor in my decision making.

I'm not trying to talk you out of it. I enjoy going to work more often than not. Just do your budget carefully and determine what kind of lifestyle it will give you over the next 10 years or so and what impact that will have on retirement savings.

Thanks for the insight. And that's great to hear that you are enjoying it.
Wishing that things just get better for you, and that you enjoy a nice retirement when that time comes.

[C-172]

I guess "airline" can be a broad term. Do you mean like a Boeing/ Airbus job? Or a RJ / Dash8 job? Or an Air Taxi / Commuter airline / any twin or turbine job?

Oh ok, my bad for not specifying. I'd be super happy with any of those that you mentioned. It'd be nice to go home every night, but I would also enjoy staying abroad for days or weeks.

If you want to get to a Boeing / Airbus airline or even a regional/charter/LCC airline, part time flight instructing alone is typically unlikely to get you there. You'll probably need to spend some time at the Air Taxi / Commuter type spot before maybe hopping to a regional type spot and then moving up from there.

Yea I was thinking that it will take a looooooooong time to build hours, doing flight instruction part time. I will have to consider what you mentioned about spending time at the Air Taxi / Commuter.

Even if I do flight instruction for a long time, like 5-10 years, I'd be happy with regional/charter airlines.
I love teaching, and I love flying, so doing that for a long time is all good.

These jobs typically aren't going to be $50-60K to start for a low timer. Vancouver has a few options, but you may find yourself having to go further afield to secure something.

Off these top of my head in YVR you have Pacific Coastal, CMA/NT, Carson... that may take a low time instructor. I'm guessing starting salary for right seat in a Beech is maybe around $35-40K... I'm sure someone here may be more up to speed on how the pay scales have evolved, I'm a little out of touch on that. An upgrade would get you the $50-60K+ you mention, what the upgrade timelines are currently, I don't know. but if you went with say 500 hours it's going to be a couple years at least.

Or if things pick up to where they were in 2019, you may be able to bypass the Air Taxi / Commuter step or at least spend less time there and quickly hop into somewhere like Jazz. I'm not sure if we'll see that again, but there's a lot of hope for it.

For some reason, I'm drawn more to small propeller airplanes (single or dual) than to a big airliners.

I was thinking flight instruction until reaching 800-1000 hours, and taking anywhere between 6 to 8 years.

If it were me and I was starting today I would push to go fast fast fast and get my CPL & MIFR, airports have lights, go after work and get it done, don't put limits on yourself, set a deadline and get to work. If you already have a PPL you should be able to finish by this summer. There's a loss of opportunity every month that you delay and you're not getting younger.

I agree 100%

Then I'd start applying everywhere and I'd look wider than just in YVR. If you limit yourself to just a few operators for your first stepping stone what are you going to do if one of them never calls? Maybe then I'd see if there was a flight school that would hire me after I did an instructor rating while I kept pounding the pavement for a operational flying job.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much for taking the time to share your thoughts and insights. Much appreciated.

[C-172]

Whats your wife say?

I upended our lives massively at 30. She was all in. That's not optional.

Good question!

She is on board, and I'm so grateful for that.

[digits_]

I guess "airline" can be a broad term. Do you mean like a Boeing/ Airbus job? Or a RJ / Dash8 job? Or an Air Taxi / Commuter airline / any twin or turbine job?

Oh ok, my bad for not specifying. I'd be super happy with any of those that you mentioned. It'd be nice to go home every night, but I would also enjoy staying abroad for days or weeks.

It's unikely you will be. But you won't know until you get there. That's the tricky part.

For the cost of CPL training, you could buy yourself a nice plane (when Covid is over and plane prices return to normal levels) and fly for fun. Sure, the planes are smaller, but if your current job with a management upgrade/pay raise would allow you to do that, you'd likely be pretty happy. Sure, you'll have the 'what if' question, and flying bigger airplanes can be fun. Then again, I'm pretty sure that every pilot has those same 'what if' questions, as nobody has flown everything in their career.

[‘Bob’]

It’s really easy to say all of that stuff without actually having experienced it. But once you have a few thousand hours under your belt, you want pay and lifestyle not flying.

First off, you’re not going to get very far doing half measures.

Lessons 2-4 times a week? Ok. I did that. Took me about a year and a half to finish with an instructor rating.

Part time instructing ? Maybe a mom-and-pop school might have room for that.. but most schools want a full time commitment and they can get it especially in the lower mainland because every new young CPL in their moms basement would rather instruct than go up north.

So you’re going to have to commit yourself to an instructor rating and a full time position with debt/spent savings and crap wages until you can at least get an ATPL.. probably 1.5 to 2 years after getting your instructor signed off and out competing every spring chicken. Let’s call it 3 years out of the gate.

Then a regional airline. Ok. You can try CMA and PASCO who are always perennially hiring at YVR. Yeah.. 35-40k in YVR after three years of poverty doesn’t sound great. probably get an upgrade in a year for $70k.. and on the 705 side touch $100k inside of five years. So let’s say 8 years from now in your shoes to what I would call a barely livable YVR wage. But that’s it. Working 18 days a month with a punishing number of sectors and never being able to remember anyones name because of the turnover or where you are because of the duty days. At least you’re lucky with new regs coming in.

Or Jazz or Encore. Used to be YVR FO Base was pretty quick with Jazz.. but you have to start out east and upgrades are all out east all on reserve. Just think. Commuting halfway across the country living in (and paying for) a crash pad all to hang around on spec in case they need you to fly. Two of your days off wasted getting to and from work.

Encore is a bit better. YYC Base and confirmed commuting. But lower pay and into the huge backlog that is West Jet where upgrades are actually moving backwards.

This pandemic has highlighted the vulnerability of the sun seeker operations which are always the hardest hit in a recession. Join a sun airline, be unemployed at least twice in your career… some permanently.

And the thing is at that level.. maybe it depends on who you are… but the flying isn’t that fun anymore. I feel really sorry for those who never flew in the bush or took their time instructing or did medevac or 702 or charter.

That’s always what everyone counting years of pension or seniority or time to retirement sitting on autopilot going to some place they’ve been many times before always reminisces about. When they were young or foolish or both.

And if it seems like I’m rambling.. I am. The tequila from the time share they tried unsuccessfully to sell me is talking and I’m hoping Omicron doesn’t cancel my flight back.

[frog]

Well, that's a bit pessimistic. Yes, it is rough at first.
The 705 world is not every day fun. But if you end up with crew members you get along with. Flying could be fun and rewarding even if you did a pairing many times !

[tps8903]

If you really want it.....Do it. Go all in and just do it. YOLO. I did what you just described while raising 5 kids all under 10 years old. It can be done, but sacrifices will have to be made in the short term.

[throwawaycorporate]

Doing it part time this would be an extremely optimistic timeline:

2 years to being qualified as an instructor with ~80K of debt.
2 years instructing at 30-40K/year.
2 years right seat at Jazz/Encore at 35-45K/year
4 years at Ac 55/65/75/85K
15 years at 150K+ (let's say 175K on average)

Over 25 years that would be an average of ~$123K/year (with 80K of debt). This is a best case scenario? How does that make you feel. Do you have significant savings/high earning wife to help for the first 10 years? What if the average earnings was 100K? 80K?

[rookiepilot]

And you all wonder why pilot wages are so low?

This is why.

I never even considered flying as a career.

[sjatana]

I left a stable career with great pay, pension + benefits. It was a great job that I enjoyed very much but like you the desire to fly was stronger. I had the support of an awesome wife and we have a family. I have zero regrets and I love what I do everyday.

It is doable. Keep your head down and blinders on.

I did the CPL + Instructor rating. Held off on the MIFR till I had 800 or so hours as an instructor under my belt.

If you cannot see yourself doing your current job for the next 25 years you have your answer. If I were in your shoes, I would be booking an instructor yesterday. Start hitting those ratings and licenses and don't look back.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Just remember, flying for a living is fun, but it's still a job. If you really can't stand your job now, by all means, go ahead and do it. I think 40 is a bit old to start an aviation career. None the less, you may get the excitement out of it that many of us do not. Be ready to make some serious sacrifices. Looking back at all the things I had to do to fly for an airline... I don't know if I could do them again at the age of 40. Actually be quite frank with you. I would never do it again if I had to start at 40... (unless I did it for fun and had a crapload of inherited money)

[C-172]

Thanks everyone for your insight, and for taking the time to chime in.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Thanks everyone for your insight, and for taking the time to chime in.

It’s a terrible industry especially right now. Lots go in with hopes and dreams that quickly erode with the flood of reality of what Canadian aviation is. It takes more than it ever gives back in the best of times, if you’re not happy with your current occupation you’re not alone, but getting into this mess certainly won’t be better. I say chase the money benefits and good schedule elsewhere and revisit this as a hobby. Aviation isn’t going to right itself for a very long time and life is too short. I hope you make the right decision for you and your family.