Unvaccinated student pilot

[Dias]

Who goes from Harvard to Lakehead?

[rookiepilot]

I find it amusing that the most spectacular financial blowups in my industry— have been overseen by a who's who of Ivy League PHD Summa Cum Laude’s.

True.

[imjustlurking]

Uhhhh what? So how did we eradicate certain diseases such as smallpox, if no vaccine prevents you from getting sick? How come there is essentially no more polio in the developed world? Please stop spreading misinformation

Misinformation? If you think that vaccines prevent you from getting sick, you are mistaken.

A vaccine gives your body the ability to create antibodies before you are actually exposed to the live virus.

How come there is essentially no more polio in the developed world?

Because when people are able to fight off a virus before they become contagious OR shorten the period in which they are contagious, the virus' reproductive rate drops. That's the point of a vaccine and that is why I suggest that people get vaccinated.

Stop arguing just to argue.

[Bede]

I find it amusing that the most spectacular financial blowups in my industry— have been overseen by a who's who of Ivy League PHD Summa Cum Laude’s.

True.

More fields than just finance. Read about the origin of the phrase “the best and the brightest”.

[twa22]

Uhhhh what? So how did we eradicate certain diseases such as smallpox, if no vaccine prevents you from getting sick? How come there is essentially no more polio in the developed world? Please stop spreading misinformation

Misinformation? If you think that vaccines prevent you from getting sick, you are mistaken.

A vaccine gives your body the ability to create antibodies before you are actually exposed to the live virus.

How come there is essentially no more polio in the developed world?

Because when people are able to fight off a virus before they become contagious OR shorten the period in which they are contagious, the virus' reproductive rate drops. That's the point of a vaccine and that is why I suggest that people get vaccinated.

Stop arguing just to argue.

Lol

Please stop talking, you're making a fool of yourself. If a vaccine gives you sterilizing immunity, which therefore protects you from even getting infected, that means you don't get sick... So I don't know what your definition of "sick" is

Also, vaccines are for bacterias too, not just viruses

Seriously, go away, you contribute nothing useful to this forum and many people here have told you to piss off

[Bede]

Who goes from Harvard to Lakehead?

https://www.tbrhri.ca/scientists/dr-mitchell-albert/

Sorry for the thread drift. The US is a lot different working in academia. If you don't get grants you literally don't get paid. You have to grovel to get some teaching to earn money. Plus, if you don't bring in grant money with the associated overhead that the university gets, the universities start clawing back your lab space continuing the downward spiral. Canada is guaranteed salary + lucrative startup grants and financially it's a no brainer. Loss of prestige is a different story.

[imjustlurking]

Lol

Please stop talking, you're making a fool of yourself. If a vaccine gives you sterilizing immunity, which therefore protects you from even getting infected, that means you don't get sick... So I don't know what your definition of "sick" is

Also, vaccines are for bacterias too, not just viruses

Seriously, go away, you contribute nothing useful to this forum and many people here have told you to piss off

You are as incredibly rude as you are mistaken.

a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10 ... 3115026742

Nowhere in the definition is there anything about preventing the virus from entering your body or replicating. A vaccine gives your immune system a head start.

[twa22]

Lol

Please stop talking, you're making a fool of yourself. If a vaccine gives you sterilizing immunity, which therefore protects you from even getting infected, that means you don't get sick... So I don't know what your definition of "sick" is

Also, vaccines are for bacterias too, not just viruses

Seriously, go away, you contribute nothing useful to this forum and many people here have told you to piss off

You are as incredibly rude as you are mistaken.

a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10 ... 3115026742

Nowhere in the definition is there anything about preventing the virus from entering your body or replicating. A vaccine gives your immune system a head start.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 9/fulltext

"Vaccines act by two broad main mechanisms. They can block infection occurring entirely or they can halt the progression to symptoms after infection occurs.1"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7058279/

"Vaccines vary in their protective properties [1,2], and although some completely block infection, others only prevent disease symptoms but not infection or onward transmission."

I'm done, like I said, please stop spreading BS and please don't give oxford english dictionary definitions for medical terms

[PilotDAR]

In the first couple of posts to answer the "friend's" question, the best answers possible were given! Nothing since then has been about airplanes, nor piloting. If you want to talk about vaccines, please do it somewhere else, this place is about aviation! Our society has been disrupted enough by this tempest in a teacup, without inflicting more useless emotion where it is not needed.

If you chose to be vaccinated, that's your choice, if you chose not to be, that's your choice. If you would honestly like to know what another person thinks of your choices, ask that person - NOT EVERYONE!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Hello,

Just asking for a friend who is wondering whether the government vaccination mandate also applies to a not fully vaccinated student pilot flying with a free lance flight instructor on their own private airplane.

thanks in advance

If the instructor is happy and the student is happy, carry on. One minor potential future glitch might be finding an examiner willing to go with an unvaxed candidate.

This examiner won’t do a flight test on anybody not fully vaccinated and all the ones I know won’t either.

Any instructor that has a desire to fly commercially outside of instructing will also be vaccinated so I would suggest that most will take a pass. In any case the pool of instructors who would be willing to fly with this student pilots in their own airplane is already pretty small as most won’t be interested, especially the ones who work at an FTU.

From a practical standpoint wanting to learn on your own airplane as an un-vaxed student is going to make it that much harder to find instruction

[DanWEC]

BPF, what is your rationale for refusing a test to an unvaccinated student?

The choice is yours of course, I'm just genuinely curious what criteria you see as a concern for you. No argument, just always like to hear different people's perspectives.

[Big Pistons Forever]

BPF, what is your rationale for refusing a test to an unvaccinated student?

The choice is yours of course, I'm just genuinely curious what criteria you see as a concern for you. No argument, just always like to hear different people's perspectives.

A couple of reasons for not wanting to spend 1.5 hours 6 inches from someone in a poorly ventilated GA airplane cockpit.

1) There is now significant evidence that unvaccinated people are more infectious if they have COVID-19 over people who are fully vaccinated. My status as a fully vaccinated person with a booster makes it less likely I will get sick enough to be hospitalized if infected but won't necessarily fully protect me from infection. However vaccination does offers some protection from infection so I don't want to fly with someone who is more likely to be infected and more infectious if infected.

2) Unvaccinated people are the reason why the health care system is stretched to the breaking point and why many people are being denied important surgeries, so I see no reason why I should support your choice not to take a approved free vaccine. With choices comes consequences.

[Vaticinator]

So, you feel so strongly that the vaccine efficacy is not sufficient enough to keep you safe that you are unwilling to share the same space as an unvaccinated person (who may or may not be infected) but you simultaneously feel so strongly that the vaccines are so effective that everyone should be vaccinated and those that aren't are worthy of your personal punitive measures? With all due respect, that seems hypocritical. How do you reconcile these two points? If I were to express the exact same sentiment as your first point, but followed it up with, "Therefore I don't feel it's ethical to mandate their uptake," I would be labelled an anti-vaxxer.

[WellThatAgedWell]

So, you feel so strongly that the vaccine efficacy is not sufficient enough to keep you safe that you are unwilling to share the same space as an unvaccinated person (who may or may not be infected) but you simultaneously feel so strongly that the vaccines are so effective that everyone should be vaccinated and those that aren't are worthy of your personal punitive measures? With all due respect, that seems hypocritical. How do you reconcile these two points? If I were to express the exact same sentiment as your first point, but followed it up with, "Therefore I don't feel it's ethical to mandate their uptake," I would be labelled an anti-vaxxer.

I just wonder for how long will people act like this for. In 10 years Covid will be the same thing. Will people keep testing and masking for the next decade?

Omicron is being described by the experts as flu or cold like. We have flu and cold spread every year.

[photofly]

So, you feel so strongly that the vaccine efficacy is not sufficient enough to keep you safe that you are unwilling to share the same space as an unvaccinated person (who may or may not be infected) but you simultaneously feel so strongly that the vaccines are so effective that everyone should be vaccinated and those that aren't are worthy of your personal punitive measures? With all due respect, that seems hypocritical. How do you reconcile these two points? If I were to express the exact same sentiment as your first point, but followed it up with, "Therefore I don't feel it's ethical to mandate their uptake," I would be labelled an anti-vaxxer.

There you go again with your bogus “if a vaccine isn’t everything it must be nothing”.

[hamstandard]

So, you feel so strongly that the vaccine efficacy is not sufficient enough to keep you safe that you are unwilling to share the same space as an unvaccinated person (who may or may not be infected) but you simultaneously feel so strongly that the vaccines are so effective that everyone should be vaccinated and those that aren't are worthy of your personal punitive measures? With all due respect, that seems hypocritical. How do you reconcile these two points? If I were to express the exact same sentiment as your first point, but followed it up with, "Therefore I don't feel it's ethical to mandate their uptake," I would be labelled an anti-vaxxer.

Becoming almost like modern day lepers. But with the advantage of being able to rejoin society on short notice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leper_colony

[Vaticinator]

There you go again with your bogus “if a vaccine isn’t everything it must be nothing”.

I actually feel the same way as BPF and I would refuse to share the same confined space IF I knew the person was covid positive or had reason to suspect that they were. Clearly we both share this feeling because we don't trust the vaccine to keep us from getting sick, even though if we were at risk of a serious outcome (which I don't believe myself to be; perhaps BPF does), it would reduce that risk to a degree. However, I would demonstrate MORE faith in the vaccine because I would not have a problem sharing a space with an unvaccinated person as long as they were being responsible and not feeling ill. I'm healthy and vaccinated - they're not ill - what's the problem? Where our opinions diverge is in the ethics of imposing our personal beliefs on others. And that's ALL it takes to get labelled as anti vax by you and the rest of your congregation. And you say my thinking is everything or nothing.

[photofly]

It’s not personal beliefs that are being imposed. Nobody is forcing anyone to believe or disbelieve anything. That you are still free to write what you write should be proof enough of that.

It’s behaviours (more accurately, restrictions on behaviours) that are being imposed.

There has, forever, been imposition of behaviours based on medical status in Canadian society: try going to school without regular vaccinations. Or walking around with a raging tuberculosis infection.

You can argue that current restrictions are overdone, or underdone, but the ethics issue was settled decades ago.

[Vaticinator]

the ethics issue was settled decades ago.

Ahhh yes, the fall back of the Covidian: the numbers are in, the issue is settled and there can be no debate.

Nonsense. Decades ago there were no coronaviruses with this particular combination of highly transmissible, yet not terribly deadly, and no fast-waning mRNA vaccines devoid of long term safety data, and no comparable capacity to spread them across the entire globe within weeks. Unless you don't believe in nuance and context, this issue is very new, and very unsettled. There is no apples to apples precedent.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandem ... -1.6319844

The pandemic has triggered a new debate over what used to be a settled principle of bioethics — that you don't treat patients differently based on past behaviour that may have contributed to their condition.

If this issue were settled, why are your fellow zealots suggesting that the unvaxxed should pay their own medical bills in our socialized system, or worse yet, that they should be left without necessary care altogether? Why are brainwashed little kids being cheered on French TV programs in Quebec for regurgitating the notions that they should call the police on the unvaccinated and that the unvaccinated need to be marginalized into submission? None of this seems very settled to me.

[photofly]

the ethics issue was settled decades ago.

Ahhh yes, the fall back of the Covidian: the numbers are in, the issue is settled and there can be no debate.

I didn't say there' can be no debate. But you can't pretend that the issue of restricting people's actions based on medical issues is somehow new, or that we have no precedents. The ethics issue was settled decades ago. You can re-open it, if you want to - claim new and special circumstances - but recognize that's what you're doing.

I believe strongly in nuance and context. Which is my main objection to your "if a vaccine isn't everything it must be nothing" theme. I'm happy to consider that vaccine mandates may have gone too far, or not far enough, or are applied wrongly. I don't believe the concept of restricting people's behaviour is de-facto unethical though.

Let's go back to your comment "Where our opinions diverge is in the ethics of imposing our personal beliefs on others."

As I said, nobody is imposing any beliefs on anyone else, and you're proof of that. You can and will believe what you want. And there is no generic ethical issue of imposing restrictions on people in present circumstances. The details, I'm happy to debate. Obviously.