CYNJ Prolonged Dispute and Airport Shutdown

[More-rudder!]

WTF! Transport Canada get off your butt and get this dispute resolved before somebody gets hurt! Having ambiguous status with respect to runway use is asking for trouble.

[mmm..bacon]

a brief precis, for those of us not in the know? NOTAMs show 07/25 closed, use as a taxiway only, or for rotary takeoff only. is there some sort of silly p**ing match between a FTU and the rest of the users?

[7ECA]

Apparently it's a pissing match between the airport manager and NavCanada/YNJ Tower. Something to do with how Langley had many, many, times more CADORs than any other airport in BC; so the airport apparently painted some non-standard markings to denote run up areas, etc., which the controller(s) took umbrage with and decided to essentially ban operations.

[88gtst]

The airport manager knows CADORs pretty much mean very little, right?

It just means things are being reported, as they should be. Sounds like the airport manager needs to go.

[linecrew]

There's a thread from last November about this as well.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?p=1172120

[CpnCrunch]

Apparently it's a pissing match between the airport manager and NavCanada/YNJ Tower. Something to do with how Langley had many, many, times more CADORs than any other airport in BC; so the airport apparently painted some non-standard markings to denote run up areas, etc., which the controller(s) took umbrage with and decided to essentially ban operations.

From what I gather:

- airport gets lots of CADORs for whatever reason
- airport management decides to paint non-standard, confusing markings to try to reduce cadors
- pilots get totally confused by non-standard markings
- more CADORs
- airport management decides to close runway as a result

All very weird stuff.

[AirFrame]

- airport gets lots of CADORs for whatever reason

This shouldn't be glossed over in any list. YNJ gets five times the number of CADORs than the surrounding three GA airports... Pitt Meadows, Abbotsford, and the busiest airport in BC, Boundary Bay. At times, YNJ has received five times the number of those three airports *combined*. And yet, it has the same mix of tenants and transients... All four airports have multiple flying schools, and a large private GA population. A lot of which fly around from one airport to the other on a regular basis, so a lot of the same people use all of the airports.

So why does NavCanada issue so many CADORs at Langley in particular? What in their policies is different for that airport? What is different in their staff's attitude? And why hasn't TC done something about this airport which seems to be up to 5x more dangerous than the other three around it?

The easy answer is that the issue is with staff in the tower... It's the only thing that's different at each airport.

[CpnCrunch]

This shouldn't be glossed over in any list. YNJ gets five times the number of CADORs than the surrounding three GA airports... Pitt Meadows, Abbotsford, and the busiest airport in BC, Boundary Bay. At times, YNJ has received five times the number of those three airports *combined*. And yet, it has the same mix of tenants and transients... All four airports have multiple flying schools, and a large private GA population. A lot of which fly around from one airport to the other on a regular basis, so a lot of the same people use all of the airports.

So why does NavCanada issue so many CADORs at Langley in particular? What in their policies is different for that airport? What is different in their staff's attitude? And why hasn't TC done something about this airport which seems to be up to 5x more dangerous than the other three around it?

The easy answer is that the issue is with staff in the tower... It's the only thing that's different at each airport.

CADORs are just an unusual occurrence, like a go-around, birds on the runway, whatever. It's no big deal.

[digits_]

This shouldn't be glossed over in any list. YNJ gets five times the number of CADORs than the surrounding three GA airports... Pitt Meadows, Abbotsford, and the busiest airport in BC, Boundary Bay. At times, YNJ has received five times the number of those three airports *combined*. And yet, it has the same mix of tenants and transients... All four airports have multiple flying schools, and a large private GA population. A lot of which fly around from one airport to the other on a regular basis, so a lot of the same people use all of the airports.

So why does NavCanada issue so many CADORs at Langley in particular? What in their policies is different for that airport? What is different in their staff's attitude? And why hasn't TC done something about this airport which seems to be up to 5x more dangerous than the other three around it?

The easy answer is that the issue is with staff in the tower... It's the only thing that's different at each airport.

CADORs are just an unusual occurrence, like a go-around, birds on the runway, whatever. It's no big deal.

Maybe. But it depends on who has to do the paperwork. If an AOC or FTU holder gets a CADORS, it needs to be investigated. I assume the same goes for an airport manager? I can understand he gets upset and annoyed if he has to do 5 times the work dealing with likely (?) silly CADORs. Then again, not sure if closing your own airport is an effective solution.

Does the Langley airport manager get paid by the airport, or by some other government agency?

[CpnCrunch]

Maybe. But it depends on who has to do the paperwork. If an AOC or FTU holder gets a CADORS, it needs to be investigated. I assume the same goes for an airport manager? I can understand he gets upset and annoyed if he has to do 5 times the work dealing with likely (?) silly CADORs. Then again, not sure if closing your own airport is an effective solution.

Does the Langley airport manager get paid by the airport, or by some other government agency?

Actually, I take that back. Looking at YYJ and YNJ CADORS for Nov, there are no minor issues like go-arounds. For YYJ there are just 4 CADORs for Nov: 2 bird strikes, 1 rough running engine, an 1 gear issue.

YNJ has 15 CADORs for Nov...a couple of aircraft with broken radios and spotty transponders, but the rest are all runway/taxiway/airspace incursions. Two of them specifically mention not understanding the taxiway dimensions have changed.

So, I don't see any problem with Nav Canada there. The problem, if anything, seems to be the airport management's weird markings that are confusing pilots, and they are somehow trying to lay the blame on Nav Canada for creating these perfectly valid CADORs?

[AirFrame]

Does the Langley airport manager get paid by the airport, or by some other government agency?

I believe the APM is an employee of the Township of Langley.

[AirFrame]

So, I don't see any problem with Nav Canada there. The problem, if anything, seems to be the airport management's weird markings that are confusing pilots, and they are somehow trying to lay the blame on Nav Canada for creating these perfectly valid CADORs?

You have to go back a lot farther than that to understand where this started. There were no unusual markings two years ago and yet the number of CADORs was through the roof then, too. The unusual markings were the APM's attempt to reduce the number of CADORs.

[linecrew]

Any word on if TC is handing out fines? NAV CANADA only files an Aircraft Occurrence Report (AOR) which then gets added to a CADORS that TC creates. If, after reviewing the CADORS, they see that there was an infraction then enforcement action would take place.

[16SidedOffice]

Looking at YYJ and YNJ CADORS for Nov, there are no minor issues like go-arounds.

VFR overshoots don't get a Cadors, IFR ones will though if it's not due to weather.

[CpnCrunch]

You have to go back a lot farther than that to understand where this started. There were no unusual markings two years ago and yet the number of CADORs was through the roof then, too. The unusual markings were the APM's attempt to reduce the number of CADORs.

So: they try to solve the problem, make a huge mess of it by painting non-standard markings, then punish everyone else for it.

[Dias]

What's ATC guy's problem? Is he just that type that reports every little infraction or did something set him off to make him spiteful?

[CpnCrunch]

What's ATC guy's problem? Is he just that type that reports every little infraction or did something set him off to make him spiteful?

I dont see any evidence of that.

[Dias]

What's ATC guy's problem? Is he just that type that reports every little infraction or did something set him off to make him spiteful?

I dont see any evidence of that.

Well let's just bury our head in the sand then instead of actually resolving the conflict. Seems to be working well so far.

[linecrew]

What's ATC guy's problem? Is he just that type that reports every little infraction or did something set him off to make him spiteful?

I dont see any evidence of that.

Well let's just bury our head in the sand then instead of actually resolving the conflict. Seems to be working well so far.

Why are you so sure it's an ATC-only issue and not local pilots repeatedly making errors that are worthy of being reported? Also, towers have more than just "one guy" working in them. Is there something you know that you're not sharing?

[CpnCrunch]

I dont see any evidence of that.

Well let's just bury our head in the sand then instead of actually resolving the conflict. Seems to be working well so far.

Why are you so sure it's an ATC-only issue and not local pilots repeatedly making errors that are worthy of being reported? Also, towers have more then just "one guy" working in them. Is there something you know that you're not sharing?

Looking at the CADORs they all seem to be valid. Most of them are entering controlled taxiways without clearances. This doesn't seem like rocket science. It's hard to imagine screwing things up this badly, but somehow they managed.

[AirFrame]

Why are you so sure it's an ATC-only issue and not local pilots repeatedly making errors that are worthy of being reported?

It's not just local pilots. Pilots from other airports, both private owners and students, are highly represented in the data as well. And pilots from YNJ aren't highly represented in CADORs at other airports... So if local pilots are screwing up a lot at home, they're not doing it when on the road. You would expect pilots not familiar with the airport to make the odd mistake, but not residents. Not for this long. The issue has to be airport-specific, and that leaves ATC, and the APM.

[godsrcrazy]

I have mentioned this before. There is ONE individual in the tower there that loves to write people up. I have been in and out of CYNJ. This individual is continually chewing people out. Myself included. Get rid of this person and you will get rid of most CADORS.

[godsrcrazy]

I have mentioned this before. There is ONE individual in the tower there that loves to write people up. I have been in and out of CYNJ. This individual is continually chewing people out. Myself included. Get rid of this person and you will get rid of most CADORS.

[linecrew]

Why are you so sure it's an ATC-only issue and not local pilots repeatedly making errors that are worthy of being reported?

It's not just local pilots. Pilots from other airports, both private owners and students, are highly represented in the data as well. And pilots from YNJ aren't highly represented in CADORs at other airports... So if local pilots are screwing up a lot at home, they're not doing it when on the road. You would expect pilots not familiar with the airport to make the odd mistake, but not residents. Not for this long. The issue has to be airport-specific, and that leaves ATC, and the APM.

Makes me wonder if the tower there is on the chopping block. Perhaps going by the book with respect to filing AORs is a means of showing how important it is to have a tower there. NAV CANADA did close Toronto Buttonville tower so maybe they are worried. Really though, at the end of the day if it's a justified AOR then they can't be faulted.

[CpnCrunch]

I have mentioned this before. There is ONE individual in the tower there that loves to write people up. I have been in and out of CYNJ. This individual is continually chewing people out. Myself included. Get rid of this person and you will get rid of most CADORS.

Maybe the problem is that other airports aren't writing people up for infractions? Either way, it's not the fault of the employees in the tower, and the only person to have screwed up royally here is the management.