CYNJ Prolonged Dispute and Airport Shutdown

[AirFrame]

Why are you so sure it's an ATC-only issue and not local pilots repeatedly making errors that are worthy of being reported?

It's not just local pilots. Pilots from other airports, both private owners and students, are highly represented in the data as well. And pilots from YNJ aren't highly represented in CADORs at other airports... So if local pilots are screwing up a lot at home, they're not doing it when on the road. You would expect pilots not familiar with the airport to make the odd mistake, but not residents. Not for this long. The issue has to be airport-specific, and that leaves ATC, and the APM.

[godsrcrazy]

I have mentioned this before. There is ONE individual in the tower there that loves to write people up. I have been in and out of CYNJ. This individual is continually chewing people out. Myself included. Get rid of this person and you will get rid of most CADORS.

[godsrcrazy]

I have mentioned this before. There is ONE individual in the tower there that loves to write people up. I have been in and out of CYNJ. This individual is continually chewing people out. Myself included. Get rid of this person and you will get rid of most CADORS.

[linecrew]

Why are you so sure it's an ATC-only issue and not local pilots repeatedly making errors that are worthy of being reported?

It's not just local pilots. Pilots from other airports, both private owners and students, are highly represented in the data as well. And pilots from YNJ aren't highly represented in CADORs at other airports... So if local pilots are screwing up a lot at home, they're not doing it when on the road. You would expect pilots not familiar with the airport to make the odd mistake, but not residents. Not for this long. The issue has to be airport-specific, and that leaves ATC, and the APM.

Makes me wonder if the tower there is on the chopping block. Perhaps going by the book with respect to filing AORs is a means of showing how important it is to have a tower there. NAV CANADA did close Toronto Buttonville tower so maybe they are worried. Really though, at the end of the day if it's a justified AOR then they can't be faulted.

[CpnCrunch]

I have mentioned this before. There is ONE individual in the tower there that loves to write people up. I have been in and out of CYNJ. This individual is continually chewing people out. Myself included. Get rid of this person and you will get rid of most CADORS.

Maybe the problem is that other airports aren't writing people up for infractions? Either way, it's not the fault of the employees in the tower, and the only person to have screwed up royally here is the management.

[rookiepilot]

I have mentioned this before. There is ONE individual in the tower there that loves to write people up. I have been in and out of CYNJ. This individual is continually chewing people out. Myself included. Get rid of this person and you will get rid of most CADORS.

Nothing worse than power-hungry little people, union-protected, who show how small they really are by being an ass in their little tiny domain.

Quintessential, total losers. They are definitely out there.

Used to be some truly nasty AC check in agents and the odd FA like that back in the day, before management finally figured out they weren’t an asset.

[photofly]

I have mentioned this before. There is ONE individual in the tower there that loves to write people up. I have been in and out of CYNJ. This individual is continually chewing people out. Myself included. Get rid of this person and you will get rid of most CADORS.

I have been in the situation where one ATCO soured the pot for everyone. On raising the matter informally I was told that NavCanada needed some people to go on the record with customer feedback, and then the matter could and would be dealt with. The situation was well understood by the appropriate people but without external impetus, nothing would be done.

Quite why that should be the case, I don't know. It might be to short circuit a response of "if I'm so bad, why has nobody complained, you're harassing me and now I'm going to complain about you". Most companies don't need to wait for their customers to complain to deal with difficult staff. But then most companies don't have the same kind of rôle as NavCanada.

[imjustlurking]

The more I think about it, the more obvious the solution becomes; call a Transport Canada inspector.

The red and white checkerboard "stop bars" are non-standard and obviously confusing. The marking is specifically designated for obstruction marking and should be obliterated from the taxiways.

[AirFrame]

The more I think about it, the more obvious the solution becomes; call a Transport Canada inspector.

The red and white checkerboard "stop bars" are non-standard and obviously confusing. The marking is specifically designated for obstruction marking and should be obliterated from the taxiways.

This is the current path. There were daily conference calls with TC, NC, APM, and I think even some stakeholders from the airport, for a week or so in early December. Transport Canada prepared a report on the state of affairs there, as did an independent contractor hired by someone. The outcome of all that was the rotating NOTAMs closing first the airport, then all runways but one (01) for departure, and now 07/25 is closed to all takeoffs and landings.

The checkerboard was painted over in the fall as well, I understand, so it's no longer an issue.

[More-rudder!]

Does anyone know what went down at Buttonville when operations went from Tower to MF? How do the traffic volumes at CYNJ and CYKZ compare?

[PeterParker]

How much of the CADORs is the result of the confusing airport operating procedures? Between the noise sensitive areas and the various restrictions on departure and arrival, seems like an unusually high amount of procedures for a small airport not to mention the small-ish runway considering the obstacles on either end of the runway.

[photofly]

Transport Canada prepared a report on the state of affairs there, as did an independent contractor hired by someone. The outcome of all that was the rotating NOTAMs closing first the airport, then all runways but one (01) for departure, and now 07/25 is closed to all takeoffs and landings.

We're from the Government. We're here to help!

[ctmorawetz]

Does anyone know what went down at Buttonville when operations went from Tower to MF? How do the traffic volumes at CYNJ and CYKZ compare?

Traffic levels at CYKZ plummeted before the tower closed and have rebounded to the mid 50,000 movements/year, just below the threshold of 60,000 movements that Nav Canada typically uses as the marker on whether an airport needs a tower or not. Buttonville can be a tricky airport to operate in and out of if you aren't familiar with the procedures and it's a nice day. The cap on the Class E airspace at the airport is too low to permit flying overhead the field at 500 feet above circuit height so that has caused some issues for people joining the circuit.

[AirFrame]

Traffic levels at CYKZ plummeted before the tower closed and have rebounded to the mid 50,000 movements/year, just below the threshold of 60,000 movements that Nav Canada typically uses as the marker on whether an airport needs a tower or not. Buttonville can be a tricky airport to operate in and out of if you aren't familiar with the procedures and it's a nice day. The cap on the Class E airspace at the airport is too low to permit flying overhead the field at 500 feet above circuit height so that has caused some issues for people joining the circuit.

I can think of airports where airspace (can't get 500' above the circuit) and/or geography (can't make a circuit on one side) suggest a single-sided approach for circuit ops... Left hand on one runway, Right hand on the other. That way you always approach from the non-circuit side of the airport, cross midfield and check winds, then turn towards whichever downwind makes sense.

[linecrew]

Does anyone know what went down at Buttonville when operations went from Tower to MF? How do the traffic volumes at CYNJ and CYKZ compare?

Traffic levels at CYKZ plummeted before the tower closed and have rebounded to the mid 50,000 movements/year, just below the threshold of 60,000 movements that Nav Canada typically uses as the marker on whether an airport needs a tower or not. Buttonville can be a tricky airport to operate in and out of if you aren't familiar with the procedures and it's a nice day. The cap on the Class E airspace at the airport is too low to permit flying overhead the field at 500 feet above circuit height so that has caused some issues for people joining the circuit.

Buttonville is an MF so you can join the circuit from the downwind, base or even straight in to final when it safe to do so, so there really is no need to fly over the circuit at 500' above.

"At aerodromes where MF procedures are in effect, aircraft may also join the circuit from the flight paths indicated in blue."
https://tc.canada.ca/sites/default/file ... mes_en.pdf

[AirFrame]

Buttonville is an MF so you can join the circuit from the downwind, base or even straight in to final when it safe to do so, so there really is no need to fly over the circuit at 500' above.

Except you need to ascertain which direction the circuit is going, and if no airplanes are present you probably want to know which way the wind is blowing, before joining straight in.

Also, is there any commercial traffic there? That might be on an IFR plan and not talking on the MF despite it being an MF?

[photofly]

IFR traffic doesn't get a pass from broadcasting positions and intentions on an MF ...

[AirFrame]

IFR traffic doesn't get a pass from broadcasting positions and intentions on an MF ...

Nope. But at an MF airport, they frequently *take* a pass without TC hearing it. Or they switch to the MF only long enough to make a call and then switch back to terminal.

[linecrew]

Buttonville is an MF so you can join the circuit from the downwind, base or even straight in to final when it safe to do so, so there really is no need to fly over the circuit at 500' above.

Except you need to ascertain which direction the circuit is going, and if no airplanes are present you probably want to know which way the wind is blowing, before joining straight in.

Also, is there any commercial traffic there? That might be on an IFR plan and not talking on the MF despite it being an MF?

Yes of course ref the winds but I assumed that a pilot would use good airmanship and figure that out accordingly. If the winds were known then you have options.

As you've stated with commercial aircraft, they may only pop on the freq to make a call and go back to terminal. That call makes them known traffic to you though so fly accordingly. It's less than ideal by any means but at least you're better informed than if they were NORDO. You can (should?) also report that to the regulator if it becomes a problem.

[WANP]

So is 01/19 the shorter of the two runways there, not having a lot of issues now?
I haven't been there in a few years, but if memory serves me right, 01/19 is about 2000' long, and approximately 500' shorter than the now closed 07/25 runway. If the shorter runway isn't having even more problems, I wonder why.