UK data showing vaccinated all ages more prone to get Covid

[TG]

Im sure that info is available if youre really interested, which i know yore not.

OK, well I just figured that, since you've made a big scene in the past and been very rude about demanding proper fact checking, checking sources, only presenting the most recent, updated data, et cetera, you would have pulled your numbers from somewhere that provided the necessary context and might have that handy to share.

He just flat out debunked you with this ivermectin crap! Wasting time doing your job! Because yes, you were not proper fact checking, checking sources, not presenting the most recent, updated data, etc...A common theme with deniers, jumping to conclusion from half baked assertions.

You and the likes keep doing it and doing it and, you get the drift.

That's the problem. There is no baseline. At this point this is just supposition based on juked numbers put out by biased stakeholders.

Those having a stakes in life insurances might disagree.

[Vaticinator]

you were not... presenting the most recent, updated data

Yes, that's true. It was an unintentional, honest mistake. I've admitted that and since corrected the error in my archiving process.

See how easy that is? Because I'm not emotionally invested in it, it's easy to accept when things change. You should try it. You might find that covid isn't so terrifying after all.

[photofly]

A good starting point for Canadian values is in the Charter, and they've been trampled by the provinces and feds.

The document to which you're referring is The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It doesn't mention the word "values" once. So it's not clear to me how one gets from the Charter to a common set of Canadian "values".

Can you elaborate on the link you see between the contents of the Charter, what you call the trampling of the Charter by the provinces and feds, what you consider to be Canadian values, and the alleged betrayal of those Canadian values you referred to?

[CpnCrunch]

You might find that covid isn't so terrifying after all.

Not terrifying any more than a plane crash. Both are easily manageable risks. The problem with covid is that there is currently a lot of mismanagement and poor risk analysis, both from governments and the general population. I cant think of a single government who has managed it appropriately.

[photofly]

I cant think of a single government who has managed it appropriately.

That's astounding. Not a single government - not one - in the entire world has done as good a job as you could have? You as an individual know better than every single multi-agency government on the planet? Your talents, wisdom and judgement are wasted flying airplanes and posting on here.

[CpnCrunch]

That's astounding. Not a single government - not one - in the entire world has done as good a job as you could have? You as an individual know better than every single multi-agency government on the planet? Your talents, wisdom and judgement are wasted flying airplanes and posting on here.

Well, apparently that is the case! Unfortunately I am not available to manage your country, as I've better things to do with my time.

Can you name a single government who has managed it appropriately?

[Impact]

Can you name a single government who has managed it appropriately?

I can. Florida

[WellThatAgedWell]

That's astounding. Not a single government - not one - in the entire world has done as good a job as you could have? You as an individual know better than every single multi-agency government on the planet? Your talents, wisdom and judgement are wasted flying airplanes and posting on here.

Well, apparently that is the case! Unfortunately I am not available to manage your country, as I've better things to do with my time.

Can you name a single government who has managed it appropriately?

There is no right or wrong way to pandemic. There are only measurable metrics and outcomes, you can let your values decide who did “best”.

For example if your core value is that we should limit Covid deaths, you could look to South Korea compared to Canada and say South Korea did things right. However South Korea did have to impose some restrictions, and it did not come without a cost. So you would have to dissect all the information and decide for yourself if you like what they did. I’ll go out on a whim and say Korea vs Canada, I would have preferred their approach. They seem to have numbers that support they took effective measures. However I don’t have all the information and I don’t know deeply all the policies they used.

You could say every country has been doing it wrong, and you could also say they are all doing it right. It’s simply an opinion based on what you value the most. If you value unity and democracy, well then in Canada I think you could say we did a shit job . We are more divided than ever (ok maybe I made this up, but this is what mainstream media would make us believe) and many policies we have were enforced in very non democratic ways (this is a fact). But seems like lots of Canadians don’t give a shit about democracy when fear and hysteria overrides their thought processes. I give Canada a D plus in its response and this will quickly change to a D minus or F if they don’t get their shit together shortly and drop restrictions.

[CpnCrunch]

Can you name a single government who has managed it appropriately?

I can. Florida

I was talking about countries, but let's consider Florida for the moment:

Notably, DeSantis’s vaccine mandate prohibition includes cruise ships — a policy MSNBC’s Chris Hayes has characterized as the “single most deranged Covid policy we’ve seen.” But a federal judge earlier this week ruled that Florida can’t bar cruise companies from requiring proof of vaccination.

[Impact]

Can you name a single government who has managed it appropriately?

I can. Florida

I was talking about countries, but let's consider Florida for the moment:

Notably, DeSantis’s vaccine mandate prohibition includes cruise ships — a policy MSNBC’s Chris Hayes has characterized as the “single most deranged Covid policy we’ve seen.” But a federal judge earlier this week ruled that Florida can’t bar cruise companies from requiring proof of vaccination.

I realize your previous statement focused more on national policies, rather than state/provincial. I agree with your major premise. IMO, Florida, with it's fairly large population base compared to some smaller countries, had the balls to do things the way they wanted, and not cave to Covid industry. They had the most rational and pragmatic approach to Covid out there.

WRT the cruise-ship issue, let the people decide.

MSNBC's Chris Hayes? There's nothing that either MSNBC or CNN has in it's programming that I'm not highly skeptical about.

[photofly]

Can you name a single government who has managed it appropriately?

I'm afraid I don't know enough about the constraints of government in different jurisdictions or the range of "but-for" outcomes that have been avoided, to make that value judgement. Certainly not on a global basis.

[CpnCrunch]

had the balls to do things the way they wanted, and not cave to Covid industry. They had the most rational and pragmatic approach to Covid out there.

But they didn't do that. They didn't use science, logic or reason. They caved into Trumpism.

[CpnCrunch]

There is no right or wrong way to pandemic. There are only measurable metrics and outcomes, you can let your values decide who did “best”.

You can use logic, science and reason.

For example if your core value is that we should limit Covid deaths, you could look to South Korea compared to Canada and say South Korea did things right. However South Korea did have to impose some restrictions, and it did not come without a cost. So you would have to dissect all the information and decide for yourself if you like what they did. I’ll go out on a whim and say Korea vs Canada, I would have preferred their approach. They seem to have numbers that support they took effective measures. However I don’t have all the information and I don’t know deeply all the policies they used.

South Korea has done pretty well, and their response is somewhat similar to Canada. But like Canada they require a PCR test a few days before travel. What exactly is the rationale for that? It certainly doesn't prevent COVID entering the country or give you a gene analysis of all variants. At best it prevents some cases entering, gives you genetic analysis of some variants entering, but it severely hits the travel industry and prevents people visiting their families without the huge inconvenience and cost if you test positive.

[WellThatAgedWell]

You can use logic, science and reason....
South Korea has done pretty well, and their response is somewhat similar to Canada. But like Canada they require a PCR test a few days before travel. What exactly is the rationale for that? It certainly doesn't prevent COVID entering the country or give you a gene analysis of all variants. At best it prevents some cases entering, gives you genetic analysis of some variants entering, but it severely hits the travel industry and prevents people visiting their families without the huge inconvenience and cost if you test positive.

South Korea deaths per million Population 130
Canada deaths per million Population 868

Unless there are some significant predispositions about being Canadian that makes covid worse for us, (cultural norms, climate, diet, age demographic etc) I would say our death counts are drastically different and this shows our policy was nothing like Korea. Of course I have very little knowledge of what goes on in Korea, but I would say they must have been doing something right if preventing death was number one value.

Anyways back to logic, science and reason...has anyone listened to the Peter Attia podcast? What did you think of their logic and reason?

I was surprised no one wanted to listen and chime in! Just let the most neutral non polarized views slip away. It's probably to rational for the AntiVaxxers and to much covid denial for the covidians. I mean maybe this is just my own tribalism trying to sit in the middle. I thought both those podcasts gave an excellent view of the pandemic. I guess its hard to listen to 4 doctors mock mask policy when we have been doing this for moths. We just want these policies to work so bad we can't admit when the science and logic shows maybe we got it wrong.

[palebird]

[quote]But they didn't do that. They didn't use science, logic or reason. They caved into Trumpism[/quote]

OMG Trumpism. What the f### is that? Ha ha ha ha.

[Impact]

had the balls to do things the way they wanted, and not cave to Covid industry. They had the most rational and pragmatic approach to Covid out there.

But they didn't do that. They didn't use science, logic or reason. They caved into Trumpism.

I disagree. If anything, Florida has followed science/logic/reason more than most any other state/country.

Take care of the vulnerable, yet let those with less risk live their lives. That's absolutely reasonable.

[CpnCrunch]

I disagree. If anything, Florida has followed science/logic/reason more than most any other state/country.

Take care of the vulnerable, yet let those with less risk live their lives. That's absolutely reasonable.

Letting covid run rampant on cruise ships and actively preventing the cruise ships from securing against that possibility doesn't seem logical or rational. Even at the best of times cruise ships are floating petri dishes.

[CpnCrunch]

South Korea deaths per million Population 130
Canada deaths per million Population 868

Yes, that's a good point. Here is an article that tries to explain how they managed it:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... k-pandemic

[Impact]

I disagree. If anything, Florida has followed science/logic/reason more than most any other state/country.

Take care of the vulnerable, yet let those with less risk live their lives. That's absolutely reasonable.

Letting covid run rampant on cruise ships and actively preventing the cruise ships from securing against that possibility doesn't seem logical or rational. Even at the best of times cruise ships are floating petri dishes.

And I take the stance that if you don't want to get infected (by whatever risk/reward matix you choose to use), then don't go on a cruise ship.

ie: Take some personal responsibility for your life or well being.

Agree to disagree?

[WellThatAgedWell]

South Korea deaths per million Population 130
Canada deaths per million Population 868

Yes, that's a good point. Here is an article that tries to explain how they managed it:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... k-pandemic

And with this is the biggest problem our politicians and experts should have to answer.

Everyone here can probably agree saving lives is a great thing, and if we could implement a policy to minimize deaths we would be on board.
Everyone here can probably agree maintaining a strong economy is a great thing, and if we could make policy work with the economy we would be on board.

When we compare Canada to Korea we lost on both fronts. We had policy that was not very effective at savings lives and we sacrificed our economy to get here. We haven't even been keeping count of how much years of life are being lost by economic consequence as a byproduct of the covid measures. Who is accountable to this? I think I understand why these truckers are driving to Ottawa. If you want to make a policy, make an effective policy and make it worth while. We are not lab rats interested in being part of a social experiment failure. The evidence is out, there are clear markers to show what exactly is unscientific about what we are currently doing. This goes beyond vaccine mandates for truckers. We have many policy missteps that were blatantly wrong and none of the politicians want to stand up and say "maybe we were wrong about this". This is not only about Trudeau, but starting with him, he needs to get his head out of his ass and end his divisive unscientific policies. I absolutely feel he should step down, but at the very least he owes Canadians an apology for the way he has handled the pandemic. His policies have worked for no one. He let people die and he is letting the economy fail, all while trying to make people like you and me as if we should blame each other and that its our peers fault that we got here this way. F*ck Trudeau.