Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7138
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by pelmet »

I found this one interesting. Is there anything King Air(or similar drivers) are doing to discover reverse thrust asymmetry prior to departure. Perhaps the run-up at the beginning of the day. How many pilots do that run-up prior to the first flight anyways.

"The GCS Aviation Ltd. (CAR604) Beech B300, C-FGSX, was operating on a flight from Victoria,
BC (CYYJ) to Red Deer, AB (CYQF). Upon landing, the pilot engaged propeller reverse thrust and
the RH engine engaged reverse before the LH engine. The asymmetric thrust condition created a
directional control issue. The pilot attempted to recover using yaw control, braking and bringing the
engines out of reverse thrust; however, the aircraft continued to yaw to the left and exited the west
side of the runway. The aircraft skidded sideways and rotated approximately 270 degrees before
coming to rest 50 feet from the edge of the runway surface. The airport authority assisted in
transferring the passengers back to the hangar, and the aircraft was subsequently towed back to
the hangar. The pilot and two passengers received no injuries. The aircraft damage was limited to
a flat RH tire.

Company maintenance performed engine ground runs and found the RH engine was entering
reverse ahead of the LH engine. The LH engine beta valve and reverse pick-up rigging was
adjusted and the aircraft released for continued service."
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Col. Panic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:01 pm
Location: Abort, Retry, Fail?

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by Col. Panic »

It’s a good thing that every King Air I ever flew had perfectly symmetric reverse! It was always reassuring on a slippery runway that you could jam it into max reverse at 100 kts and never have to worry about this kind of response. Kudos to the crew involved for keeping the greasy side down, and making sure nobody got hurt! Heroic flying skills!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4053
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by PilotDAR »

Back when I flew twin PT-6 powered airplanes, the drill always was to select Beta, pause, visually confirm the Beta indication lights were both illuminated, then apply power. The brief pause seemed well worth it to prevent asymmetric power. From my DHC days, I was sadly aware of a number of pilots who slammed in lots of reverse on a STOL landing to then realize reverse thrust was asymmetric as they were going off the side of the runway.
---------- ADS -----------
 
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4562
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by co-joe »

Without reading the report, that sounds like a ground prop solenoid issue. In the 300 and 350 there is actually an annunciator light to warn you of this as it's seen as quite serious. The issue isn't just that there is a mismatch in torque in reverse, but that one prop stays at the flight idle low pitch stop and the other one potentially one either goes into the ground idle (beta) or even full reverse mode. The 1900 has basically the identical electric low pitch stops as the 300/350 but for some reason that light and any mention of it is not in the AFM. It might just be the longer wheel base and bigger rudder of the 1900 makes it less of an issue.

Shitty reverse rigging is one of my biggest pet peeves from my time in Beechcraft. Engineers hate messing with it because every little change requires a full engine run, so any adjustments cause hours and hours of fuss. One 200 I flew actually had no reverse thrust at all and had presumably been like that for years. I can still hear the room full of engineer eyes rolling when I told them. The N1 never even increased with the levers at the stops, just beta. When they finally finished messing with it you could parallel park that Beech.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by photofly »

co-joe wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:15 pm I can still hear the room full of engineer eyes rolling
I feel certain I need a recording of this for my ring tone. Or at least, can you describe the sound? Please!? :-D
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
sportingrifle
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:29 am

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by sportingrifle »

“Jamming’ it into max reverse at 100 knots” was likely the cause of the incident. PilotDAR’s procedure is SOP in every airline I have worked at. Even in some really heavy iron the PM calls the reverse annunciation before the PF starts powering it up.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Col. Panic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:01 pm
Location: Abort, Retry, Fail?

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by Col. Panic »

sportingrifle wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:15 pm “Jamming’ it into max reverse at 100 knots” was likely the cause of the incident. PilotDAR’s procedure is SOP in every airline I have worked at. Even in some really heavy iron the PM calls the reverse annunciation before the PF starts powering it up.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
---------- ADS -----------
 
2R
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4318
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:25 pm
Location: left coast

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by 2R »

Jamming ? What is the difference between Jam and Marmalade ?
I cannot Marmalade my fist into your face 👊🏻

You can always spot the guys who never get a second date by the way they roughly abuse equipment. The gentle art of seduction and caressing is lost on those thugs . Divorce court is in their future !

Treat and respect the plane like a lady and she will not be a bitch to you 🦤
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Col. Panic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:01 pm
Location: Abort, Retry, Fail?

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by Col. Panic »

2R wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:11 am
Treat and respect the plane like a lady and she will not be a bitch to you 🦤
That’s more than can be said for my ex-wives! I’m pretty sure one did try to marmalade her fist in my face!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
‘Bob’
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 704
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:19 am

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by ‘Bob’ »

There’s like… zero reason to use reverse on a Beech product.

Especially in Red Deer.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TELL THOMPSON WE’RE COMIN’ IN HOT!!

http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/answer ... _FAQ_.html
User avatar
KAG
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:24 pm

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by KAG »

‘Bob’ wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:54 am There’s like… zero reason to use reverse on a Beech product.

Especially in Red Deer.
That's a completely inaccurate statement.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
RegionalPilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:28 pm

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by RegionalPilot »

KAG wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:16 pm
‘Bob’ wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:54 am There’s like… zero reason to use reverse on a Beech product.

Especially in Red Deer.
That's a completely inaccurate statement.
I agree tho. I never used reverse on a landing and I have 2000 hrs of King Air all around Nunavut on small gravel runway. You simply don’t touch reverse on gravel, even less if you have contaminated runways during winter.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
KAG
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:24 pm

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by KAG »

RegionalPilot wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:24 pm
KAG wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:16 pm
‘Bob’ wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:54 am There’s like… zero reason to use reverse on a Beech product.

Especially in Red Deer.
That's a completely inaccurate statement.
I agree tho. I never used reverse on a landing and I have 2000 hrs of King Air all around Nunavut on small gravel runway. You simply don’t touch reverse on gravel, even less if you have contaminated runways during winter.
Hi, yes you do. I assure you. You don't ever stop on gravel, but you most certainly do use reverse. I should say you can, it may not be necessary. But it's perfectly fine. Former Borek trainer, voyager trainer, lots of time in locations you've mentioned. Reverse is PERFECTLY fine on gravel. The king airs are easy planes to fly, which is nice. Exciting is for my days off. I haven't flown a king air for 17 years but I doubt it's changed.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7138
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by pelmet »

I remember one guy that liked to keep max reverse on until pretty much stopped. I was surprised the blades didn't pick up a bunch of stones. Seemed risky to me.
---------- ADS -----------
 
RegionalPilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:28 pm

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by RegionalPilot »

pelmet wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:58 pm I remember one guy that liked to keep max reverse on until pretty much stopped. I was surprised the blades didn't pick up a bunch of stones. Seemed risky to me.
100% those guys wreck props every season.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Col. Panic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:01 pm
Location: Abort, Retry, Fail?

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by Col. Panic »

RegionalPilot wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:24 pm
KAG wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:16 pm
‘Bob’ wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:54 am There’s like… zero reason to use reverse on a Beech product.

Especially in Red Deer.
That's a completely inaccurate statement.
I agree tho. I never used reverse on a landing and I have 2000 hrs of King Air all around Nunavut on small gravel runway. You simply don’t touch reverse on gravel, even less if you have contaminated runways during winter.
Way to “mansplain” to the guy whose username is literally “King Air Guy”.

Every Beech product I have flown has had very effective reverse. Models with a ground idle gate make it much easier to not select reverse, should that be your wish, but having many hours in models without the second gate on the power levers, you can use reverse on every landing, regardless of the surface. In any case I suggest judicious use of reverse until the engines are evenly spooled up, and don’t put yourself in a position where you are throwing a cloud of dust and gravel directly in front of your engines, so you ingest that crap moments later.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Schooner69A
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: The Okanagan

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by Schooner69A »

I only acquired abut 2000 hours of turbo-prop time during my career - mostly Commander 1000 with a smidge of KingAir time. I really don't remember using much actual reverse during landings; lots of beta, but no actual reverse...
---------- ADS -----------
 
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4562
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by co-joe »

I used full reverse on virtually every landing. Reverse is free, brakes are expensive.
---------- ADS -----------
 
RegionalPilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:28 pm

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by RegionalPilot »

co-joe wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:07 pm I used full reverse on virtually every landing. Reverse is free, brakes are expensive.
For gravel operations, we say brakes are cheap, props are expensive…
---------- ADS -----------
 
Loon-A-Tic
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 367
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:51 pm

Re: Asymmetric Reverse Leads to King Air Excursion

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

RegionalPilot wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:16 pm
co-joe wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:07 pm I used full reverse on virtually every landing. Reverse is free, brakes are expensive.
For gravel operations, we say brakes are cheap, props are expensive…
Engines have them both beat on dollar value
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”