DEC Westjet Swoop

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ALPApolicy
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by ALPApolicy »

Oldcommercialpilot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:16 pm
ALPApolicy wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:55 pm It might be reasonable for WJ pilots to seek a fence around the 787 positions for a limited period of time.
I don’t disagree. But why would the 787 positions be so sacred as to deserve a fence while other positions are not?
Would a senior YVR or YYC captain not deserve a fence around their position or base? How about the guy that was 1 number short of holding a 787 position? Should his base & rank now be up for grabs?

It’s not going to happen. But surely you can see what I’m getting at.
I'm not denying that other fences might be desirable from the perspective of other pilots at WJ.

I don't think much, if any, bumping from currently held positions will occur. There is too much growth coming.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by Oldcommercialpilot »

ALPApolicy wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:17 pm
Oldcommercialpilot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:09 pm
ALPApolicy wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:10 pm

Do you know for sure that the SunWing pilots will be merged with all WJ group company pilots, including Encore pilots? Or would they be merged with only the WJ mainline and Swoop pilots who are in one bargaining unit (Encore having its own bargaining unit)?
Of course I don’t know for sure. But does that detail matter even slightly?
I do believe it does.
Okay, one more reply then I’m going to bed. And probably logging off this website again for another 5 or 6 years.

I think you’re misunderstanding me.
Of course it matters immensely whether Sunwing pilots would be merged with WJ/Swoop pilots separately or with the entire list for a number of reasons.

What I’m saying is that it is extremely unlikely that that detail is going to sway any ALPA merger committee into pursuing some weird hybrid weighted-average seniority integration.

What if Lynx were to merge with Air Canada? Would the AC merger committee even entertain the notion of Lynx’s top 10% (who started yesterday) slotting into their top 10%?
It’s ludicrous
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by ALPApolicy »

Oldcommercialpilot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:48 pm
ALPApolicy wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:17 pm
Oldcommercialpilot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:09 pm

Of course I don’t know for sure. But does that detail matter even slightly?
I do believe it does.
Okay, one more reply then I’m going to bed. And probably logging off this website again for another 5 or 6 years.

I think you’re misunderstanding me.
Of course it matters immensely whether Sunwing pilots would be merged with WJ/Swoop pilots separately or with the entire list for a number of reasons.

What I’m saying is that it is extremely unlikely that that detail is going to sway any ALPA merger committee into pursuing some weird hybrid weighted-average seniority integration.

What if Lynx were to merge with Air Canada? Would the AC merger committee even entertain the notion of Lynx’s top 10% (who started yesterday) slotting into their top 10%?
It’s ludicrous
Agreed. My point has more to do with the mechanics of integration of the lists. The WJ group seniority list (including Encore) is a DOH list composed of pilots hired at any of the three companies and the DOH associated with their first hire date. (Encore pilots resign at Encore in order to be hired at WJ or Swoop.)

The WJ/Swoop seniority list is not a DOH list, if by DOH one means the date first hired at WJ mainline or Swoop. It will be more challenging to integrate this list with SunWing pilots' DOH list. Much easier to integrate with the Group list.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by ant_321 »

I was thinking while reading through, it’s nice that the conversation is civil and had me thinking we may be able to avoid all that pettiness that was on here during the transat/ air Canada “merger”. Then I hit oldcommercialpilot’s posts. :roll:
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by goleafsgo »

For those saying that Jazz/Georgian/Sky set the precedent for DOH, that’s not necessarily the case here. All 3 of those airlines were ALPA whereas Sunwing is Unifor so not really the same argument.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

Oldcommercialpilot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:42 pm Is that right? Most equitable way you say?
So… what you’re saying is that if you’re in the top 1% of Sunwing pilots - hired in 2015ish then the most equitable thing is that you get to parachute into the top 1% of the WestJet seniority list and bump out a senior skipper on the 787 that has been at WestJet since 1996… 2 decades before Sunwing was even conceived?

Give me a break.
I won't give you a break because you have your facts all wrong and are posting incorrect information like it's the truth. The most senior pilot at Sunwing has been on the property since 2004. That's only 8 years after WestJet started, not "2 decades" as you say.

Almost 30% of Sunwing pilots have more than 10 years of seniority with the company as well. Yes, Sunwing is a young company, but it's not like it got started last week like Lynx as you mention in another post.

Perhaps you should get your facts straight before you post such nonsense.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

goleafsgo wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:44 am For those saying that Jazz/Georgian/Sky set the precedent for DOH, that’s not necessarily the case here. All 3 of those airlines were ALPA whereas Sunwing is Unifor so not really the same argument.
The Jazz/Georgian/Sky situation was unique in that they all operated as CPA carriers for Air Canada. They were all "siblings" of the AC mothership. AC literally gave the aircraft to Jazz who then had to find a way to crew them (one of them being a completely new type to the operation). The easiest way to do that is just bring the pilots over with DOH. Did all of them being ALPA help? Probably. But it wasn't the be-all and end-all that made it work.

The SWG/WJ situation is different. This is the case of one company buying another as opposed to having the mothership force you to give your aircraft to someone else.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by Oldcommercialpilot »

DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:07 am
Oldcommercialpilot wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:42 pm Is that right? Most equitable way you say?
So… what you’re saying is that if you’re in the top 1% of Sunwing pilots - hired in 2015ish then the most equitable thing is that you get to parachute into the top 1% of the WestJet seniority list and bump out a senior skipper on the 787 that has been at WestJet since 1996… 2 decades before Sunwing was even conceived?

Give me a break.
I won't give you a break because you have your facts all wrong and are posting incorrect information like it's the truth. The most senior pilot at Sunwing has been on the property since 2004. That's only 8 years after WestJet started, not "2 decades" as you say.

Almost 30% of Sunwing pilots have more than 10 years of seniority with the company as well. Yes, Sunwing is a young company, but it's not like it got started last week like Lynx as you mention in another post.

Perhaps you should get your facts straight before you post such nonsense.

Actually, you can still give me a break. So Sunwing has a handful of pilots who have been there since the mid 2000’s, does that make it reasonable for them to parachute into a 787 captain position at another airline?

Also, as an example, the Sunwing pilots at 50% seniority were hired in 2016 roughly. WestJet pilots at the 50% mark were hired nearly a decade before that. You still want to suggest that slotting in ahead of them on their own airplanes is perfectly equitable?

And my example of Lynx/Air Canada was an extreme example that I was using to demonstrate that a small airline merging with a much larger more senior airline would make it fairly ridiculous to suggest merging lists based on current seniority within the respective airlines. So a pilot at 50% seniority at Lynx shouldn’t slot into the middle of the AC list? But a pilot at 50% seniority at SWG should join the middle of the WJ list and just trump a decade’s worth of seniority?
Sorry, I don’t see the difference.
It’s an exaggerated comparison of a WestJet/Sunwing merger but it’s relevant.

You would be wise to get your Unifor house in order and direct your merger committee to attempt to reach a reasonable agreement with ALPA at all costs. If a list merger were to end up going to arbitration I don’t believe you’d be pleased with the outcome. Are you familiar with the term Endtail Seniority?
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Last edited by Oldcommercialpilot on Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by Mostly Harmless »

cloak wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:33 am Some are under the misconception that if Swoop was not created its flying would have been absorbed by the mainline, which is not case. Its flying would have simply been absorbed by others in that market segment. Swoop is a way for the WestJet group to c̶a̶p̶t̶u̶r̶e̶ s̶o̶m̶e̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶ r̶e̶v̶e̶n̶u̶e̶ lose huge amounts of money, as publicly documented before the company went private. It is important for pilots to know the market in which they operate and have reasonable expectations as not to price themselves out of that market, e.g. Skyservice. As WestJet transitions into more of “legacy” carrier, it would be ok for it to compete with legacy carrier wowcon for mainline, as for what it will look like for Swoop will be the result of negotiations to be sure, but it’s important to have reasonable expectations and be flexible, possibly to set a ratio to mainline?
The U. S. is short roughly 14,000 pilots next year. That's one year. As Canada is often compared to the U. S. in every way except wages, and being 1/10th the size of the U. S. we can presume a shortfall of 1,400 pilots next year in the Canadian market. You are correct, it is important for pilots to know the market in which they operate... and that market is not what it has been since the 1970's.

The company management are always making changes and then telling us we need to be accepting of change and embrace it... it is long past the time that the management takes its own advice and embrace the changes in the market, rather than perpetuating the story of pilot surpluses and scarcity of jobs.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

Oldcommercialpilot wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:37 am Actually, you can still give me a break. So Sunwing has a handful of pilots who have been there since the mid 2000’s, does that make it reasonable for them to parachute into a 787 captain position at another airline?

Also, as an example, the Sunwing pilots at 50% seniority were hired in 2016 roughly. WestJet pilots at the 50% mark were hired nearly a decade before that. You still want to suggest that slotting in ahead of them on their own airplanes is perfectly equitable?

And my example of Lynx/Air Canada was an extreme example that I was using to demonstrate that a small airline merging with a much larger more senior airline would make it fairly ridiculous to suggest merging lists based on current seniority within the respective airlines. So a pilot at 50% seniority at Lynx shouldn’t slot into the middle of the AC list? But a pilot at 50% seniority at SWG should join the middle of the WJ list and just trump a decade’s worth of seniority?
Sorry, I don’t see the difference.
It’s an exaggerated comparison of a WestJet/Sunwing merger but it’s relevant.
You're missing what I originally said. I said that I don't think SWG pilots want to have a merged seniority list at all, BUT if it came to that, a percentage/ ratio merged list is equitable. I'd rather keep our operations separate if possible. I'm not suggesting "that slotting in ahead of them on their own airplanes is perfectly equitable." I'm suggesting that SWG pilots fly SWG aircraft and keep our own list. You're jumping to conclusions.

If there's "only a handful" of super senior pilots at SWG as you say, it won't even really make a dent in the relative seniority of the several thousand WestJet pilots. And that's assuming that guys with one or two years left before they hit 65 want to go to the trouble of commuting from YYZ to YYC and learning to fly a 787. Only 6 of the top 100 seniority at SWG are YYC based anyways, so you need not worry about them all of a sudden deciding to move to YYC and "parachute" into a 787.

Lastly, you using "exaggerated" and "extreme" examples to prove your point only shows how invalid your point is. If your examples rely on a most-likely impossible situation to make it sound at all like the SWG/WJ situation, then you've already lost the argument.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by CaptainHaddock »

Do you know for sure that the SunWing pilots will be merged with all WJ group company pilots, including Encore pilots? Or would they be merged with only the WJ mainline and Swoop pilots who are in one bargaining unit (Encore having its own bargaining unit)?
I think a weighted merging would be the least contentious for both groups, mostly because the airline is growing. But AlpaPolicy’s point is certainly a significant detail and probably the big fly in the ointment. WestJet/Encore have the DOH/PTA but merging the SunWing pilots into that would be pretty unpalatable to them, but parachuting the SunWing pilots above the Encore pilots will be unpalatable to them.

This is all belly button gazing currently, we’ll see how the regulatory approval goes and the next few months pan out.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by Mach1 »

DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:48 am You're missing what I originally said. I said that I don't think SWG pilots want to have a merged seniority list at all, BUT if it came to that, a percentage/ ratio merged list is equitable.
A percentage/ratio.... Let's see, SW divided by WJ... carry the one.... Sunwing pilots are 20% of the size of WJ pilots so we only apply 20% of DOH to the merge? Okay, I can live with that percentage/ratio.

Just be careful what you wish for, it may be applied in a way you don't like (see example above). Why don't we wait for the dust to settle a bit so we can see clearly when we start making plans for world domination and how you will plan to take over the world.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by TFTMB heavy »

Anybody trying to have a reasonable conversation on this subject will be met with disillusioned expertise by hopeful experts. For proof, just go read up on the TS-AC posts.

Some of you also need to go read up on the concept of NO BUMP, NO FLUSH.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by Sharklasers »

TFTMB heavy wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:28 am Anybody trying to have a reasonable conversation on this subject will be met with disillusioned expertise by hopeful experts. For proof, just go read up on the TS-AC posts.

Some of you also need to go read up on the concept of NO BUMP, NO FLUSH.
Agreed, there were a bunch of hopeful Transat pilots hoping to knock AC pilots to the curb spewing the same pie in the sky percentage based lottery win for themselves.

I think their hopes are different now.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by ALPApolicy »

What is the company's intention? Does it want SunWing (SWG) pilots to go to mainline or Swoop? I am assuming that the SWG OC will be collapsed relatively quickly, within the order of 6 months or less. It should be easy to achieve, and unnecessary to maintain SWG pilots providing uplift for SWG Vacations as that will be provided by Swoop or WJ pilots.

If the intention is to send SWG to Swoop, do they do so under Swoop's WAWCONs? Is that possible? Or advisable? I am not going to spend much time on that topic right now until I can think more about it. Perhaps others can opine.

If the idea is to send SWG pilots to WJ then, for the most part, we are talking about where to place people in 737NG/MAX jobs which the most of us are already flying. SWG pilots, even the most senior ones, are not a threat in the near term, to WestJet pilots with their eyes on the left seat of the 787. I think a three year - five year fence on the left seat of the 787 (in favour of WJ pilots) would be reasonable on the final list.

For SWG pilots desiring right seat on the 787, is the same policy appropriate? I think that's a reasonable position. It is also more likely that a SWG pilot would be able to hold right seat on the 787 depending on the composition of the final Integrated Seniority List (ISL).

For WJ pilots already in the left seat, and not close to getting the left seat on the 787, there isn't much of a negative affect that the final ISL can have on them. Due diligence will still have to be done, of course, but we are all flying 737's.

What to do about WJ FO's and Swoop FO's hoping to upgrade? I think one approach would be to look at how long have the FO's been in their seat, and how long were they realistically looking at getting to the left seat. Whatever models are put forth, how does the list proposed affect pilots such as these?

In any case, there will be gives and takes in the final list. Some sections will be affected more than others, but there shouldn't be windfall gains to one side or the other. We should be hoping for a result that aims to achieve some sort of equity (as much as I hate that word in other usages).

John
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by TFTMB heavy »

Sharklasers wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:48 am
TFTMB heavy wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:28 am Anybody trying to have a reasonable conversation on this subject will be met with disillusioned expertise by hopeful experts. For proof, just go read up on the TS-AC posts.

Some of you also need to go read up on the concept of NO BUMP, NO FLUSH.
Agreed, there were a bunch of hopeful Transat pilots hoping to knock AC pilots to the curb spewing the same pie in the sky percentage based lottery win for themselves.

I think their hopes are different now.
Went both ways with some AC pilots requesting BOTL. Regardless, wasn't my point.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by Sharklasers »

TFTMB heavy wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:27 am
Sharklasers wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:48 am
TFTMB heavy wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:28 am Anybody trying to have a reasonable conversation on this subject will be met with disillusioned expertise by hopeful experts. For proof, just go read up on the TS-AC posts.

Some of you also need to go read up on the concept of NO BUMP, NO FLUSH.
Agreed, there were a bunch of hopeful Transat pilots hoping to knock AC pilots to the curb spewing the same pie in the sky percentage based lottery win for themselves.

I think their hopes are different now.
Went both ways with some AC pilots requesting BOTL. Regardless, wasn't my point.
Yeah that was never going to happen. I think when the dust settles the SW/WS merger will probably become an example of a smooth merger where everyone comes out relatively happy. Fenced DOH sounds pretty good for all but some SW FOs hoping for the quick upgrade.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by ALPApolicy »

Other factors in play are:

1) The expiry of the WJ contract at the end of this year.

2) It is no secret that WJ pilots are unhappy with current Swoop WAWCONs, which are significantly inferior to mainline.

3) Swoop can expand to 30 tails immediately according to the WJ CBA. Further expansion, under the current CBA is tied to more 787's on property.

4) The PTA exists as an LOU under the current contract and grandfathers existing Encore pilots in the event the PTA is abandoned in the future. It is assumed that it would be placed inside the next CBA , but it is not guaranteed that it survives. If the company wants it more than WJ/Swoop pilots to retain Encore pilots, what would they give WJ/Swoop pilots to maintain the PTA?

If an Integrated Seniority List (ISL) is composed of SWG with Swoop and WJ, but not Encore pilots, Encore pilots will parachute onto the ISL at a position other than BOTL, when they later flow to WJ or Swoop. Assuming that the ISL has sections where ratios of some sort are employed, where do these Encore pilots go? Does the merger process anticipate this and reserve positions on the list for the Encore pilots who flow?

It would be much simpler to integrate SWG pilots with the company wide WJ/Swoop/Encore seniority list, but is that a valid list to use in a merger such as this?
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by JetA Burner »

What is PTA? I understand that the WS/WO list is not DOH, that being said I don't know how it was/is compiled. Just trying to figure out how encore play into the mix as well. I thought that the "one list" was exactly that. One seniority list.
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Re: DEC Westjet Swoop

Post by ALPApolicy »

JetA Burner wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:05 pm What is PTA? I understand that the WS/WO list is not DOH, that being said I don't know how it was/is compiled. Just trying to figure out how encore play into the mix as well. I thought that the "one list" was exactly that. One seniority list.
The history of the PTA (Pilot Transfer Agreement) lies in the formation of Encore back in circa 2014. In that time, neither WJ nor Encore were unionized. The Encore working conditions were apparently considered unattractive by some pilots looking to apply to WJ/Encore and they held off applying. In order to sweeten the offer, WJ management and the WJPA came up with a scheme (the One List) where Encore pilots would carry their Encore DOH over to WJ for purposes of placement on the WJ (pre-union) seniority lists used for upgrades and base assignments. A cynic might say that instead of offering more pay, WJ management and the WJPA sacrificed the seniority of mainline pilots in order to attract Encore pilots. Prior to unionization, not many of us realized how close we were to certifying and the subsequent legal force of Collective Bargaining Agreements.

When ALPA certfied WJ and then Encore pilots, all previously existing procedures were frozen until negotiation of the first CBAs.

The first WJ CBA contained a seniority list that was DOH (at WestJet mainline) for all WJ Off The Street (OTS) pilots but the pilots already at WJ who had flowed from Encore were credited their DOH at Encore. This was in keeping with the One List in place since 2014ish. The CBA had no provision for pilots who flowed from Encore after the date of the CBA.

Sometime after that CBA was in place, ALPA and the Company approached the pilots with an LOU proposal that replicated the One List. Pilots who flowed to WJ from Encore would be credited with their DOH at Encore for purposes of placement on the seniority list, some 4 to 5 years before they flowed. Pilots who "flow" must quit their job at Encore and be hired at WestJet mainline.

As a result, we have a company wide seniority list which contains a DOH for all pilots at WJ/Swoop/Encore which is based on their first DOH at a WJ group company. We also have an ordered seniority list at WJ and Swoop. From those lists, one cannot tell who flowed from Encore and who was an OTS pilot as there is only one Date of Hire, the one on the combined company list.

The PTA, as mentioned previously is in place as an LOU. It may be placed in the next CBA. The wording of the CBA says it may be cancelled at the request of either party, but the existing Encore pilots are grandfathered, meaning they will carry their WJ DOH when they flow in five years. I am not sure how that works in light of the current situation.
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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