#EncoreFlowMoraleLow

[Apestogetherstrong]

PDF attached
Please share this with your friends, colleagues, WJ management, ALPA groups, p2p groups, ALPA reps and telegram chat group. We need better conditions/wages NOW! We need flow back and YOS!

[imjustlurking]

PDF attached
Please share this with your friends, colleagues, WJ management, ALPA groups, p2p groups, ALPA reps and telegram chat group. We need better conditions/wages NOW! We need flow back and YOS!

Send your Line Ops Manager an email explaining your frustrations. I hear that they've been getting plenty of pilot feedback recently.

[Dionysus]

PDF attached
Please share this with your friends, colleagues, WJ management, ALPA groups, p2p groups, ALPA reps and telegram chat group. We need better conditions/wages NOW! We need flow back and YOS!

Add Jazz, Porter Lynx and Jetlines and sunwing benefits and the cash match or other perks. Dunno how you would measure guaranteed flow and things like travel benefits and a/c types you can transfer onto or maybe add schedule bidding perks or seniority too? How about adding pensions? Where do you train? Where do you fly? Bases? Can you transfer around and live closer to your domicile? Who has a better business plan? Who will be around in 1, 5 or 10 years? Get my point? Your chart is way to agenda driven. People are smart and most pick for a whole package not just the cash base pay. Question and I’m just asking what would Yos cost? I have no idea but you must know since it’s your solution

[Canadaflyer46]

PDF attached
Please share this with your friends, colleagues, WJ management, ALPA groups, p2p groups, ALPA reps and telegram chat group. We need better conditions/wages NOW! We need flow back and YOS!

Add Jazz, Porter Lynx and Jetlines and sunwing benefits and the cash match or other perks. Dunno how you would measure guaranteed flow and things like travel benefits and a/c types you can transfer onto or maybe add schedule bidding perks or seniority too? How about adding pensions? Where do you train? Where do you fly? Bases? Can you transfer around and live closer to your domicile? Who has a better business plan? Who will be around in 1, 5 or 10 years? Get my point? Your chart is way to agenda driven. People are smart and most pick for a whole package not just the cash base pay. Question and I’m just asking what would Yos cost? I have no idea but you must know since it’s your solution

YOS would cost a lot. The company knows how much, because they paid full YOS to all the WJ pilots at Encore these last 2 years, and they also pay full YOS to Swoop pilots as a matter of routine. It's not something currently afforded to Encore pilots in their current agreement, but it's going to be the only thing to stop an exodus of pilots to competitors as recruitment starts again.

[Dionysus]

Didn’t really answer the question. Does any other company other than swoop have that in Canada? Can’t think of anything. I think Jazz had a version of it a few years back but can’t remember

[FL030]

AC progression is like double of what's written on your chart.

[Sharklasers]

I don’t get it? Are all the WestJet pilots recalled? How would you flow to positions that don’t exist?

[imjustlurking]

I don’t get it? Are all the WestJet pilots recalled? How would you flow to positions that don’t exist?

Not yet. If I heard correctly, there is an arbitration reward that stipulates all WJA pilots being offered recall by May 2022.

Currently the only open positions are at Encore and Swoop, but Encore pilots are not being offered flow because the majority of high seniority pilots are training captains. Even then, there is a shortage of captains right now.

[YC87DRVR]

Take a number, there’s a looong list of things that need to change and cause morale to be low.

[Blue42]

Code: Select all

PDF attached
Please share this with your friends, colleagues, WJ management, ALPA groups, p2p groups, ALPA reps and telegram chat group. We need better conditions/wages NOW! We need flow back and YOS!

Add Jazz, Porter Lynx and Jetlines and sunwing benefits and the cash match or other perks. Dunno how you would measure guaranteed flow and things like travel benefits and a/c types you can transfer onto or maybe add schedule bidding perks or seniority too? How about adding pensions? Where do you train? Where do you fly? Bases? Can you transfer around and live closer to your domicile? Who has a better business plan? Who will be around in 1, 5 or 10 years? Get my point? Your chart is way to agenda driven. People are smart and most pick for a whole package not just the cash base pay. Question and I’m just asking what would Yos cost? I have no idea but you must know since it’s your solution

YOS would cost a lot. The company knows how much, because they paid full YOS to all the WJ pilots at Encore these last 2 years, and they also pay full YOS to Swoop pilots as a matter of routine. It's not something currently afforded to Encore pilots in their current agreement, but it's going to be the only thing to stop an exodus of pilots to competitors as recruitment starts again.

False! Many that bumped from WJ down to Encore were not paid based on YOS. If you didn’t work there before, you went to year 1 pay level.

[Canadaflyer46]

Code: Select all

Add Jazz, Porter Lynx and Jetlines and sunwing benefits and the cash match or other perks. Dunno how you would measure guaranteed flow and things like travel benefits and a/c types you can transfer onto or maybe add schedule bidding perks or seniority too? How about adding pensions? Where do you train? Where do you fly? Bases? Can you transfer around and live closer to your domicile? Who has a better business plan? Who will be around in 1, 5 or 10 years? Get my point? Your chart is way to agenda driven. People are smart and most pick for a whole package not just the cash base pay. Question and I’m just asking what would Yos cost? I have no idea but you must know since it’s your solution

YOS would cost a lot. The company knows how much, because they paid full YOS to all the WJ pilots at Encore these last 2 years, and they also pay full YOS to Swoop pilots as a matter of routine. It's not something currently afforded to Encore pilots in their current agreement, but it's going to be the only thing to stop an exodus of pilots to competitors as recruitment starts again.

False! Many that bumped from WJ down to Encore were not paid based on YOS. If you didn’t work there before, you went to year 1 pay level.

Yeah fair enough I can see that I didn't explain that well. I was referring to YOS for WJ while at Encore, which is the topic we're talking about. So a Year 3 WJ pilot who bumped to Encore and stayed for 2 years, would go back at Year 5 on the payscale.
You're right that many who bumped from WJ to Encore/Swoop had to start at Year 1 pay there. An absolute disgrace.
The latest news is Swoop taking over Westjet Vacations flying.
https://www.travelweek.ca/news/westjet- ... p-flights/

[pacman007]

Ok so from what I gather in all this is a DE Swoop pilots will get YOS at mainline but is still behind all Encore pilots for flow? So encore pilots will get to mainline faster but have to go to year 1 pay at mainline? Of this is correct what’s the point of YOS at swoop when you are behind 500 encore pilots? Am I missing something? Can some one clarify all this?
So what is the flow time from a new swoop pilot to mainline?
And what is the time to flow
For the last guy on the list at encore?
I’m confused! Lol

[imjustlurking]

Ok so from what I gather in all this is a DE Swoop pilots will get YOS at mainline but is still behind all Encore pilots for flow? So encore pilots will get to mainline faster but have to go to year 1 pay at mainline? Of this is correct what’s the point of YOS at swoop when you are behind 500 encore pilots? Am I missing something? Can some one clarify all this?
So what is the flow time from a new swoop pilot to mainline?
And what is the time to flow
For the last guy on the list at encore?
I’m confused! Lol

Encore, Swoop, Mainline are on a single seniority list, sorted by date of hire.

Encore and Swoop have step pay based on years completed in that specific role. (2+ years completed as FO = step 3, upgrades to step 1 Captain)
WestJet has step pay based off of years of service, based on date of hire, but
Only WestJet and Swoop employment time counts toward years of service, so upgrading from Encore still puts you in step 1 at Swoop/WestJet, unless you already have a pilot hire date at Swoop or WestJet (think bump downs).

[Canadaflyer46]

Ok so from what I gather in all this is a DE Swoop pilots will get YOS at mainline but is still behind all Encore pilots for flow? So encore pilots will get to mainline faster but have to go to year 1 pay at mainline? Of this is correct what’s the point of YOS at swoop when you are behind 500 encore pilots? Am I missing something? Can some one clarify all this?
So what is the flow time from a new swoop pilot to mainline?
And what is the time to flow
For the last guy on the list at encore?
I’m confused! Lol

It is all confusing. Swoop to WJ isn't "flow". After a 2 year freeze Swoop pilots can bid for any mainline spots their seniority will hold. Encore to WJ/Swoop IS "flow". Number of flow spots is based on whatever management decide is the amount they can spare from the Encore ranks. So far for 2022 (including the May bid) it's only 10 pilots out of 500 that are being allowed to flow, and only to Swoop, and subject to a 2 year freeze before being allowed to bid into WJ.
Flow time for Encore is anyone's guess, the last year pre-Covid they flowed around 50 guys I believe (someone correct me...). So with 500 odd pilots approx 10 years for flow if they can ramp back up to 50 a year again. "Flow" time for Swoop is as soon as your freeze is done (2 years).

[goleafsgo]

When mainline WJ starts hiring OTS is it a good place to go? Behind all current swoop and encore pilots for schedule/vacation/upgrade but don’t have to worry about steps or YOS for pay.

[sstaurus]

Seniority is less important at WJ. It only matters for upgrade or position change (like 787). Schedule is socialized bidding and vacation is a points based system.

[Greasy Greaser]

One BIG thing to remember, Swoop is common employer to WestJet and is under the same CBA as WestJet. Encore is entirely separated on both accounts for the Pilot side, not knocking it; just seems a lot of people don't know that or choose to ignore that. Just have to fix that awful problem on not carrying over YOS from WestJet TO Swoop. And upping the pay/adding more years/few other things lol.

Getting a one to one YOS from Encore to Swoop or WJ is like getting YOS at AC from WJ or Swoop. Probably not impossible but extremely unlikely. Also flow from Encore is open, just restricted to Swoop, everything is hindsight but who didn't see this coming... Been telling guys/girls to "flow" to Swoop in 2019 by choice before being forced.

While I am definitely not one those guys who think we should ignore Encore, we have to worry about WJ/Swoop first and let Encore Union handle themselves. They're big boys and good at what they do. IF getting YOS at Encore ever happened, it will probably just be for Swoop only and we'll most likely get it changed that Swoop YOS doesn't count to mainline but their goes anymore hiring for Swoop which is needed as per last PSB, and keeps Encore wages low for another carrot. Anyone's guess at this point.

[Greasy Greaser]

Ok so from what I gather in all this is a DE Swoop pilots will get YOS at mainline but is still behind all Encore pilots for flow? So encore pilots will get to mainline faster but have to go to year 1 pay at mainline? Of this is correct what’s the point of YOS at swoop when you are behind 500 encore pilots? Am I missing something? Can some one clarify all this?
So what is the flow time from a new swoop pilot to mainline?
And what is the time to flow
For the last guy on the list at encore?
I’m confused! Lol

While it seems like a mess, no need to worry! It is a mess! lol

Going DE at Swoop, you'll do two years, then lets say you bid over to YVR WJ FO, which you can and probably will hold it because all those senior to you are technically stuck at Encore because of "Flow"; you'll be year three pay WJ YVR FO. Now, once that senior Encore pilot gets the chance to flow to WJ, they will obviously be ahead of in seniority, you'll be ahead of them in Pay. Though they will get preference over base, equipment and left seat over you since they flowed on the next PSB.

As someone stated, there is no flow to WJ from swoop or vice versa, just bidding and freeze periods. Currently there are very junior Swoop pilots hired in late 2019 or early 2020 and are getting YVR base WJ mainline, as with YYZ since that is the junior base. Just have to do your two years and you're almost guaranteed a spot at WJ but bet on it being YYZ.

Last guy at Encore will probably flow in 8 or so years sadly. Unless big changes come next CA.

[pacman007]

Ok so from what I gather in all this is a DE Swoop pilots will get YOS at mainline but is still behind all Encore pilots for flow? So encore pilots will get to mainline faster but have to go to year 1 pay at mainline? Of this is correct what’s the point of YOS at swoop when you are behind 500 encore pilots? Am I missing something? Can some one clarify all this?
So what is the flow time from a new swoop pilot to mainline?
And what is the time to flow
For the last guy on the list at encore?
I’m confused! Lol

While it seems like a mess, no need to worry! It is a mess! lol

Going DE at Swoop, you'll do two years, then lets say you bid over to YVR WJ FO, which you can and probably will hold it because all those senior to you are technically stuck at Encore because of "Flow"; you'll be year three pay WJ YVR FO. Now, once that senior Encore pilot gets the chance to flow to WJ, they will obviously be ahead of in seniority, you'll be ahead of them in Pay. Though they will get preference over base, equipment and left seat over you since they flowed on the next PSB.

As someone stated, there is no flow to WJ from swoop or vice versa, just bidding and freeze periods. Currently there are very junior Swoop pilots hired in late 2019 or early 2020 and are getting YVR base WJ mainline, as with YYZ since that is the junior base. Just have to do your two years and you're almost guaranteed a spot at WJ but bet on it being YYZ.

Last guy at Encore will probably flow in 8 or so years sadly. Unless big changes come next CA.

This assumes there will be growth at mainline WestJet, who knows if or when that will happen. With all the spin-off companies do you really think the high paid mainline pilot numbers will grow?

[imjustlurking]

Ok so from what I gather in all this is a DE Swoop pilots will get YOS at mainline but is still behind all Encore pilots for flow? So encore pilots will get to mainline faster but have to go to year 1 pay at mainline? Of this is correct what’s the point of YOS at swoop when you are behind 500 encore pilots? Am I missing something? Can some one clarify all this?
So what is the flow time from a new swoop pilot to mainline?
And what is the time to flow
For the last guy on the list at encore?
I’m confused! Lol

While it seems like a mess, no need to worry! It is a mess! lol

Going DE at Swoop, you'll do two years, then lets say you bid over to YVR WJ FO, which you can and probably will hold it because all those senior to you are technically stuck at Encore because of "Flow"; you'll be year three pay WJ YVR FO. Now, once that senior Encore pilot gets the chance to flow to WJ, they will obviously be ahead of in seniority, you'll be ahead of them in Pay. Though they will get preference over base, equipment and left seat over you since they flowed on the next PSB.

As someone stated, there is no flow to WJ from swoop or vice versa, just bidding and freeze periods. Currently there are very junior Swoop pilots hired in late 2019 or early 2020 and are getting YVR base WJ mainline, as with YYZ since that is the junior base. Just have to do your two years and you're almost guaranteed a spot at WJ but bet on it being YYZ.

Last guy at Encore will probably flow in 8 or so years sadly. Unless big changes come next CA.

This assumes there will be growth at mainline WestJet, who knows if or when that will happen. With all the spin-off companies do you really think the high paid mainline pilot numbers will grow?

You think Onyx bought WestJet so that they could sit tight and see what happens?

No, the want to make WestJet an international airline. I anticipate big plans after the COVID hangover wears off that will likely include orders for more 787s. Really, one only has to look at the pre-covid expansion plans.

[George Taylor]

Yeah, selling WestJet vacations through Swoop will bring growth at mainline. Sure.....

[imjustlurking]

Yeah, selling WestJet vacations through Swoop will bring growth at mainline. Sure.....

Put your anger aside for a moment. Swoop is wholly owned by WestJet and success at Swoop means success for WestJet.

[Canadaflyer46]

Yeah, selling WestJet vacations through Swoop will bring growth at mainline. Sure.....

Put your anger aside for a moment. Swoop is wholly owned by WestJet and success at Swoop means success for WestJet.

Hahahaha. Ok so now we know you're trolling. Even the most diehard, koolaid-drinking, still grooming WestJet pilot would never utter such a thing. I actually threw up a little in my mouth just now I think

[imjustlurking]

Yeah, selling WestJet vacations through Swoop will bring growth at mainline. Sure.....

Put your anger aside for a moment. Swoop is wholly owned by WestJet and success at Swoop means success for WestJet.

Hahahaha. Ok so now we know you're trolling. Even the most diehard, koolaid-drinking, still grooming WestJet pilot would never utter such a thing. I actually threw up a little in my mouth just now I think

I was very happy to find out that pilots don't groom anymore when I came back after COVID.

However, I'm not sure why you think I'm trolling. I am dead serious. Why would Swoop exist if you think that WestJet does not want it to be successful? Do you think it would exist if it wasn't?

[Mach1]

Why would Swoop exist if you think that WestJet does not want it to be successful? Do you think it would exist if it wasn't?

I'll answer that one.

Does WestJet want Swoop to be successful? Yes... at the expense of WestJet's employees.