#EncoreFlowMoraleLow

[imjustlurking]

I'll answer that one.

Does WestJet want Swoop to be successful? Yes... at the expense of WestJet's employees.

So you are accusing the company of malicious intent?

Absolutely. Don't forget how those aircraft first got off the ground, with scab pilots. Swoop was and is a union busting "airline".. that's it's only purpose of existing.

Sure, you can argue that it was intended as a union busting airline, but it is and has been for years part of the exact same pilot bargaining unit. On the other hand, Encore is a separate bargaining unit and does not get the support it deserves from the WJA/WSW bargaining unit.

[pacman007]

So you are accusing the company of malicious intent?

Absolutely. Don't forget how those aircraft first got off the ground, with scab pilots. Swoop was and is a union busting "airline".. that's it's only purpose of existing.

Sure, you can argue that it was intended as a union busting airline, but it is and has been for years part of the exact same pilot bargaining unit. On the other hand, Encore is a separate bargaining unit and does not get the support it deserves from the WJA/WSW bargaining unit.

The whole point of all this, from a pilots point of view, which airline can you get a stable long career AND AFFORD TO RETIRE AT THE END OF YOUR CAREER! Is there any jobs left that can give a pilot with a family a good retirement? Other then AC of course

[imjustlurking]

Absolutely. Don't forget how those aircraft first got off the ground, with scab pilots. Swoop was and is a union busting "airline".. that's it's only purpose of existing.

Sure, you can argue that it was intended as a union busting airline, but it is and has been for years part of the exact same pilot bargaining unit. On the other hand, Encore is a separate bargaining unit and does not get the support it deserves from the WJA/WSW bargaining unit.

The whole point of all this, from a pilots point of view, which airline can you get a stable long career AND AFFORD TO RETIRE AT THE END OF YOUR CAREER! Is there any jobs left that can give a pilot with a family a good retirement? Other then AC of course

Before you go tooting the Air Canada horn, go take a look at the AC subforum here.

[MorePower!]

Absolutely. Don't forget how those aircraft first got off the ground, with scab pilots. Swoop was and is a union busting "airline".. that's it's only purpose of existing.

Sure, you can argue that it was intended as a union busting airline, but it is and has been for years part of the exact same pilot bargaining unit. On the other hand, Encore is a separate bargaining unit and does not get the support it deserves from the WJA/WSW bargaining unit.

The whole point of all this, from a pilots point of view, which airline can you get a stable long career AND AFFORD TO RETIRE AT THE END OF YOUR CAREER! Is there any jobs left that can give a pilot with a family a good retirement? Other then AC of course

If you can't retire very comfortably after a career at Westjet, you have planning/consumption/image problems. Live within your means, save/invest. Don't be buying stupid things you don't need. Or just because you are an Airline pilot.. "well Delta makes this.. so I should be able to afford 3 cars and 2 boats and useless junk" that's a race to the poor house.. and will guarantee you retire broke. All for what? So you can appear rich?


The issue with retirement is always with the person. It's just easy to blame everyone else instead of owning up to your short comings and lack of planning and self control. If you don't agree with this, you are in denial, or have a lack of financial know how. That can be fixed, pick up some books, learn some things.. and start living within your means.

When we as pilots make 3-4 times what an avarage Canadian makes.. and can't retire? That is 100% a you problem. You could live a very nice life and still invest enough for retirement. If you choose to spend it all, then you must be okay with living "rich" and having nothing for your later years. It's quite simple.. but all comes down to Vanity, and the keeping up with the Jones's.

If you feel like 200-300k/annum is not enough to live a good life and retire extremely comfortably.. maybe you are in the wrong career. Maybe it's time to become a business owner, a ceo perrhaps? Then you can drive that Audi and own that 1.5 million dollar house and retire comfortably while showing off your digs to the strangers around you.

Just take this back to basics, and ask your self.. why can't I retire comfortably? And instead of bitching about it and hoping the company gives you another 100k raise or what ever magic number you need.. do something about it, take control of your finances, make changes and don't rely on the company.

Your income as a Canadian pilot puts you in the top 5%.. what you do with it is up to you.

[sstaurus]

It’s definitely important to not be angry and resentful all the time, and many pilots are guilty of that. The people on the ground made/make this place the best… But it just gets you down seeing upper management doing their best to dismantle the good parts at every turn.

[Mac08]

Sure, you can argue that it was intended as a union busting airline, but it is and has been for years part of the exact same pilot bargaining unit. On the other hand, Encore is a separate bargaining unit and does not get the support it deserves from the WJA/WSW bargaining unit.

The whole point of all this, from a pilots point of view, which airline can you get a stable long career AND AFFORD TO RETIRE AT THE END OF YOUR CAREER! Is there any jobs left that can give a pilot with a family a good retirement? Other then AC of course

Before you go tooting the Air Canada horn, go take a look at the AC subforum here.

As a long time "lurker" seeing some of your posts I gathered you're a early 20 year old living of the Kool-Aid of Encore... Now in bed with someone from management or have a gun to your head every time you login. Actually I'm going with you sign in from the company iPad thinking Westjet tracks your post.

AC might be bad, yeah we're not perfect, but how many Encore pilots have you flown that have came from Air Canada or Jazz with the hopes of being a 737 captain at Westjet? There's a reason why you hear of Encore/Westjet pilots going to Air Canada/Jazz and not the other way around. I've actually NEVER heard of anyone going from Red to Teal. Don't think the AC subforum is stopping anyone.

Honestly Westjet Management sucks. Plain and Simple. Before COVID it was seeing how fast they could cut paycheques while giving themselves the extra they shaved off. The fact you can have the Airports Executive say on a company webinar - Hey Tier 1 bases, you're not being outsourced, but I've said that we wouldn't outsource before and look what happened. Like who does that?

Before you tell me I'm unhappy I should leave. I already did. I was one of the many Westjetters that realized the gold standard in Canada is Red. The worst part is I have a lot of friends still at Westjet. Amazing people - FA's, MTCE, CSA's, etc who are so demoralized because Westjet keeps screwing them harder than AC management could dream of. So keep doing you, flying and do what you want, but don't ever openly say AC is near WJ without looking like a fool.

[Canadaflyer46]

The WJ pay structure has always been "T4 rich but cash poor". Cripple pilots with near $1000 disability insurance deductions and interest free loans to the company (the ESP match), and it'll mean virtually all pilots have to rely on working some overtime to pad the pay cheques. When top scale 787 captains are taking home under 2 grand on a cheque you know something is severely wrong.

[airway]

The WJ pay structure has always been "T4 rich but cash poor". Cripple pilots with near $1000 disability insurance deductions and interest free loans to the company (the ESP match), and it'll mean virtually all pilots have to rely on working some overtime to pad the pay cheques. When top scale 787 captains are taking home under 2 grand on a cheque you know something is severely wrong.

"interest free loans to the company (the ESP match)"

Usually ESP programs are a great deal for the employee and are voluntary. How does your ESP end up being a loan, and benefit the company?



.

[lownslow]

top scale 787 captains are taking home under 2 grand on a cheque

What? I made more than that teaching a light turboprop groundschool last week. That’s messed up if true.

[Canadaflyer46]

The WJ pay structure has always been "T4 rich but cash poor". Cripple pilots with near $1000 disability insurance deductions and interest free loans to the company (the ESP match), and it'll mean virtually all pilots have to rely on working some overtime to pad the pay cheques. When top scale 787 captains are taking home under 2 grand on a cheque you know something is severely wrong.

"interest free loans to the company (the ESP match)"

Usually ESP programs are a great deal for the employee and are voluntary. How does your ESP end up being a loan, and benefit the company?



.

As far as I understand you pay the tax on the 20% company match off your cheque, but agree to let them keep that 20% for a year and do with as they see fit. After that time (and assuming the company is still operating) you get to have your money back.

[Mach1]

What? I made more than that teaching a light turboprop groundschool last week. That’s messed up if true.

True story bro.

[Mach1]

"interest free loans to the company (the ESP match)"

Usually ESP programs are a great deal for the employee and are voluntary. How does your ESP end up being a loan, and benefit the company?

We had an ESPP (Employee Stock Purchase Program) and you could contribute 20% of your wages to purchasing stock every pay and the company would match up to that 20%. Like every other ESPP, there was a one year period in which you had to hold that stock. This was a good program for all as it was a nice forced savings if you participated and you could score some capital gains... if you had the patients and didn't need the money yesterday.

When the company was sold to Onex, there were no more stocks to purchase. So, the company replacement plan was you give them your 20% and they would match that once a year instead of every payday... and it would sit in an account at zero interest. It was written as a loan to the company. If you left your money in the account for 2 or 3 years they would pay you a nominal interest rate on your contribution only, not the companies match. So... for one year it was an interest free loan to the company. The pilots fought back, and fortunately for them, they had a union because that plan was the only offer on the table from the company. In arbitration, the pilots won a couple of different options with regard to their 20% contributions and how that would be matched by the company. I won't go into detail because I don't have a day and a half to type out all the options and their details... yes, I type that slow.... but there was the company plan (as stated above), an RRSP plan and a non-RRSP plan. Possibly one more plan as well. But the best of our deals has our money going into an ETF run by a 3rd party and held for a minimum of one year... but at least you'll make some market gains out of that depending on which plan you choose out of the basket offered.

Short story is, all the options are a lesser plan than the ESPP.

[Mach1]

WestJet pay maths lesson 1.

Gross pay (It looks like a reasonable number)
less 20% WSP (WestJet Savings Program... the ESPP replacement) contribution
plus companies 20% match (You have now put 40% of your gross pay in savings)
less Income taxes (35% to 45%)
less other deductions
= Net pay of 20% to 30% of your gross pay

[MorePower!]

Well.. you guys are hopeless. Continue bitching and moaning.. see how far that gets you.

If I can make it work as a Westjet FO and save a shit load of money every year... I don't understand how everyone else can't. And yes I have a family and dependants. Maybe learning about personal finances is a good start.

Hopefully someone got something out of the things I have said.

Be happy.

[imjustlurking]

WestJet pay maths lesson 1.

Gross pay (It looks like a reasonable number)
less 20% WSP (WestJet Savings Program... the ESPP replacement) contribution
plus companies 20% match (You have now put 40% of your gross pay in savings)
less Income taxes (35% to 45%)
less other deductions
= Net pay of 20% to 30% of your gross pay

Let's do some simple and overgeneralized number crunching.

77.5 hours per month * $243/hour = $18,843
minus 20% ($3766) WSP (which you would be withdrawing later on)
minus dues (5% I believe) $943
minus tax ~$6834/month (Ontario)
and then divide in half to get your 1st of the month paycheck: $3650

So yeah, your claim is plausible, yet misleading.
When your base take home salary is twice the pre-tax/deduction salary of an Encore FO, you really don't have a leg to stand on. Taxes are a friggin' killer though, eh?

[Mach1]

Let's do some simple and overgeneralized number crunching.

77.5 hours per month * $243/hour = $18,843
minus 20% ($3766) WSP (which you would be withdrawing later on)
minus dues (5% I believe) $943
minus tax ~$6834/month (Ontario)
and then divide in half to get your 1st of the month paycheck: $3650

So yeah, your claim is plausible, yet misleading.
When your base take home salary is twice the pre-tax/deduction salary of an Encore FO, you really don't have a leg to stand on. Taxes are a friggin' killer though, eh?

Sorry, but you are missing a few lines in there. Add the companies 20% contribution. Then recalculate the taxes. And subtract the other deductibles like CPP, EI, STD, LTD. Dues are nowhere near 5%.

Lastly, and this is an important one, after you have deducted the taxes, also make sure you account for the fact that you are putting 40% of your money into savings and it will not show up on your cheque as net pay. That'll make your rough numbers a little closer.

[Mach1]

Well.. you guys are hopeless. Continue bitching and moaning.. see how far that gets you.

If I can make it work as a Westjet FO and save a shit load of money every year... I don't understand how everyone else can't. And yes I have a family and dependants. Maybe learning about personal finances is a good start.

Hopefully someone got something out of the things I have said.

Be happy.

I've managed fine on my pay as well... I'm just explaining to people who may not have understood where all that money goes. So, I'm not sure how that is bitching unless you just can't discuss anything in a factual matter without thinking it is a complaint.

[goleafsgo]

WestJet pay maths lesson 1.

Gross pay (It looks like a reasonable number)
less 20% WSP (WestJet Savings Program... the ESPP replacement) contribution
plus companies 20% match (You have now put 40% of your gross pay in savings)
less Income taxes (35% to 45%)
less other deductions
= Net pay of 20% to 30% of your gross pay

Can you decide to not contribute any to the 20% WSP and just have that amount added to your cheques?

[imjustlurking]

WestJet pay maths lesson 1.

Gross pay (It looks like a reasonable number)
less 20% WSP (WestJet Savings Program... the ESPP replacement) contribution
plus companies 20% match (You have now put 40% of your gross pay in savings)
less Income taxes (35% to 45%)
less other deductions
= Net pay of 20% to 30% of your gross pay

Can you decide to not contribute any to the 20% WSP and just have that amount added to your cheques?

Sure, you can, but then you're giving up free money.

Think of it as delayed income... if you make $100,000 per year, you'd be giving up $20,000 in match.

[sstaurus]

I've never understood why people have such issues with it, but we seem to have a lot of financially illiterate captains here. Makes it exhausting as an FO to have to listen to them complain about their paystubs. As mentioned above, at WJ you are T4 rich and cash poor. However a monkey with half-a-brain able to manage cashflow, would realize this is only an issue FOR ONE YEAR. After that you have regular vested payments coming out forever. There are many options for whatever you want to do with your money. It is just a self managed pension and/or savings program. Whatever you want it to be.

However this could all be moot as the CA is up for negots at the end of the year and this all might change.