Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
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- RoAF-Mig21
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Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
With the "retirement" of Rouge 767, will Air Canada return its seasonal service to Eastern Europe?
Prior to the pandemic, Rouge operated flights to Prague (Czechia), Warsaw (Poland), Budapest (Hungary), Bucharest (Romania) and I believe Zagreb, (Croatia). I don't see the 737MAX or Rouge A321 going all the way there from YYZ or YUL without a stopover, so that leaves the 787-8 or the A330, since the 777 is pretty big for that market.
Any thoughts?
Prior to the pandemic, Rouge operated flights to Prague (Czechia), Warsaw (Poland), Budapest (Hungary), Bucharest (Romania) and I believe Zagreb, (Croatia). I don't see the 737MAX or Rouge A321 going all the way there from YYZ or YUL without a stopover, so that leaves the 787-8 or the A330, since the 777 is pretty big for that market.
Any thoughts?
Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
If an A321NEO can do those routes then the answer is ‘yes’.RoAF-Mig21 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:31 pm With the "retirement" of Rouge 767, will Air Canada return its seasonal service to Eastern Europe?
Prior to the pandemic, Rouge operated flights to Prague (Czechia), Warsaw (Poland), Budapest (Hungary), Bucharest (Romania) and I believe Zagreb, (Croatia). I don't see the 737MAX or Rouge A321 going all the way there from YYZ or YUL without a stopover, so that leaves the 787-8 or the A330, since the 777 is pretty big for that market.
Any thoughts?
Watch for possible fleet news. Not sure about routes.
Last edited by rudder on Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
Take this with a grain of salt, but a senior 787 captain told me (before covid) that the 321neo and 350 rumours swirling around head office had some truth to them.
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
It should be noted that 99% of “senior 787 captains” are just as in the dark and dumb as the rest of us, all pilots gossip and most of the shit passed around here is made up and pure fiction passed off as fact. Usually with the name of some manager attached. I have seen checkers and IOETCs pass off the most outlandish clearly wrong rumours as fact. Yes, precovid for a year we were ‘just weeks away’ from announcing a 350/321 order. First it was going to be at the Paris airshow, then Dubai, then the CNE. announcement never happened, maybe it was because of covid, or the Transat merger but more likely the fact that AC has very very VERY aggressively priced 787 and 737 options sitting on the books over at Boeing along with a big credit due to the max fiasco. So aggressively priced that even in the worst parts of the pandemic with loads in the crapper AC could afford to exercise some.TrustinThrust wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:54 am Take this with a grain of salt, but a senior 787 captain told me (before covid) that the 321neo and 350 rumours swirling around head office had some truth to them.
Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
AC will be looking for a more diverse Airbus fleet revitalization sooner than later.
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
Even if they do get the A350, I doubt it will be used to go seasonally to Budapest. Maybe a 787-8 in all economy / prem. economy would make sense for these type of seasonal routes. The A321N/LR will not cut it (non-stop) for these routes, especially Westbound. Here are the Great Circle Distances to Eastern Europe that Rouge used to operate with their 767s
YYZ PRG 3,619 nm
YYZ WAW 3,755 nm
YYZ ZAG 3,830 nm
YYZ BUD 3,874 nm
YYZ OTP 4,203 nm
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YYZ-PRG%0D ... =wls&DU=nm
YYZ PRG 3,619 nm
YYZ WAW 3,755 nm
YYZ ZAG 3,830 nm
YYZ BUD 3,874 nm
YYZ OTP 4,203 nm
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YYZ-PRG%0D ... =wls&DU=nm
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
I don’t think we are getting new single aisle Airbus but the 321XLR can comfortably do all those routes listed apparentlyRoAF-Mig21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:59 pm Even if they do get the A350, I doubt it will be used to go seasonally to Budapest. Maybe a 787-8 in all economy / prem. economy would make sense for these type of seasonal routes. The A321N/LR will not cut it (non-stop) for these routes, especially Westbound. Here are the Great Circle Distances to Eastern Europe that Rouge used to operate with their 767s
YYZ PRG 3,619 nm
YYZ WAW 3,755 nm
YYZ ZAG 3,830 nm
YYZ BUD 3,874 nm
YYZ OTP 4,203 nm
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YYZ-PRG%0D ... =wls&DU=nm
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
Wow! I just looked at the A321XLR range: They say 4700 nm. That's pretty impressive regardless... I imagine these are ranges in optimal conditions (zero wind). Coming westbound from Bucharest to Toronto, not flying the exact Great Circle, strong headwinds, alternate, reserve... I don't know, even the 4700 nm range is pushing it.Sharklasers wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:23 pmI don’t think we are getting new single aisle Airbus but the 321XLR can comfortably do all those routes listed apparentlyRoAF-Mig21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:59 pm Even if they do get the A350, I doubt it will be used to go seasonally to Budapest. Maybe a 787-8 in all economy / prem. economy would make sense for these type of seasonal routes. The A321N/LR will not cut it (non-stop) for these routes, especially Westbound. Here are the Great Circle Distances to Eastern Europe that Rouge used to operate with their 767s
YYZ PRG 3,619 nm
YYZ WAW 3,755 nm
YYZ ZAG 3,830 nm
YYZ BUD 3,874 nm
YYZ OTP 4,203 nm
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YYZ-PRG%0D ... =wls&DU=nm
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
From the past in how they handled the A319 ETOPs the would just do direct the 85% of the time it works and plan a tech stop in Shannon or Gander for the days it doesn’t.RoAF-Mig21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:42 pmWow! I just looked at the A321XLR range: They say 4700 nm. That's pretty impressive in regardless... I imagine these are ranges in optimal conditions (zero wind). Coming westbound from Bucharest to Toronto, not flying the exact Great Circle, strong headwinds, alternate, reserve... I don't know, even the 4700 nm range is pushing it.Sharklasers wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:23 pmI don’t think we are getting new single aisle Airbus but the 321XLR can comfortably do all those routes listed apparentlyRoAF-Mig21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:59 pm Even if they do get the A350, I doubt it will be used to go seasonally to Budapest. Maybe a 787-8 in all economy / prem. economy would make sense for these type of seasonal routes. The A321N/LR will not cut it (non-stop) for these routes, especially Westbound. Here are the Great Circle Distances to Eastern Europe that Rouge used to operate with their 767s
YYZ PRG 3,619 nm
YYZ WAW 3,755 nm
YYZ ZAG 3,830 nm
YYZ BUD 3,874 nm
YYZ OTP 4,203 nm
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YYZ-PRG%0D ... =wls&DU=nm
Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
YYZ BUD on the 787 starting May to Oct 2022
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
That's absolutely AMAZING! That news just made my day!
Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
The retirement of the 767's leaves a big ASM hole to fill on the transatlantic market. Air Canada has been reconfiguring its A330's to passenger configuration for this summers anticipated traffic. The rouge 767's offered a low risk ability to fly 280 passengers a 5T/hour with low cost Flight Attendants. The mainline product would be competitive in big markets like BCN and ATH but AC never seemed to think its could offer service to smaller markets like ZAG, OPO and BUD prior to rouge.
Ordering 3 billion dollars worth of A321XLR's isn't exactly low risk, especially with a new CEO who has a reputation for a tight grip on the purse strings and a pandemic that teases everyone with false starts. On paper the 321XLR looks to be able to fly most of the 767 routes with the exception of ATH, OTP and BUD. The 321 would address a major weakness of the rouge 767 in that it's a better fit for the winter markets where a 767 is 'too much' aircraft. You've got to think there are a lot of airlines taking a close look at the A321 LR/XLR to see how it performs in the real world, but I'd expect AC to move cautiously.
Ordering 3 billion dollars worth of A321XLR's isn't exactly low risk, especially with a new CEO who has a reputation for a tight grip on the purse strings and a pandemic that teases everyone with false starts. On paper the 321XLR looks to be able to fly most of the 767 routes with the exception of ATH, OTP and BUD. The 321 would address a major weakness of the rouge 767 in that it's a better fit for the winter markets where a 767 is 'too much' aircraft. You've got to think there are a lot of airlines taking a close look at the A321 LR/XLR to see how it performs in the real world, but I'd expect AC to move cautiously.
Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
321 XLR will run into lots of baggage bulk out issues as well. AT was running out of baggage space with the 321neoLR’s since the extra fuel takes away from baggage space.
The XLR is good if you are planning on running like flat seating to reduce the total number of pax and associated baggage
The XLR is good if you are planning on running like flat seating to reduce the total number of pax and associated baggage
Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
Budapest is a fun city!
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
Yeah. It absolutely is. I'm looking forward to it. Maybe I'll take a trip in May when service starts.
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
Air Transat flew a leg that long in 2018 to demonstrate the possibility. I doubt they had much payload for a trip that long but it's an impressive feat none the less.RoAF-Mig21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:42 pm
Wow! I just looked at the A321XLR range: They say 4700 nm. That's pretty impressive regardless... I imagine these are ranges in optimal conditions (zero wind). Coming westbound from Bucharest to Toronto, not flying the exact Great Circle, strong headwinds, alternate, reserve... I don't know, even the 4700 nm range is pushing it.
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air- ... index.html
Air Transat flight TS690 flew transatlantic from Montreal, Canada, to Athens, Greece, on Monday -- a journey of 7,600 kilometers, or 4,754 miles. So far, so normal -- except the eight-hour, 32-minute flight was performed in a narrowbody Airbus A321neoLR.
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
Right, I remember that. That was pretty impressive, though I'm not sure how that will translate into "normal operations". I imagine there were some load restrictions, right?co-joe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:39 pmAir Transat flew a leg that long in 2018 to demonstrate the possibility. I doubt they had much payload for a trip that long but it's an impressive feat none the less.RoAF-Mig21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:42 pm
Wow! I just looked at the A321XLR range: They say 4700 nm. That's pretty impressive regardless... I imagine these are ranges in optimal conditions (zero wind). Coming westbound from Bucharest to Toronto, not flying the exact Great Circle, strong headwinds, alternate, reserve... I don't know, even the 4700 nm range is pushing it.
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air- ... index.html
Air Transat flight TS690 flew transatlantic from Montreal, Canada, to Athens, Greece, on Monday -- a journey of 7,600 kilometers, or 4,754 miles. So far, so normal -- except the eight-hour, 32-minute flight was performed in a narrowbody Airbus A321neoLR.
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
I don't think they can take a full load that far. But it does go to show what an impressive machine the 321 neo is. That said I'm also not sure what the cost per available seat mile is compared to an A350 or 787 either. I doubt the neo is going to be competitive on long haul flights like that especially against wide bodied fleets.
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Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
True. The A321XLR is quite the machine. I'm genuinely impressed. It may not be competitive on a YYZ-ATH or YYZ-FRA, but it opens up markets that would never be financially feasible. Markets like:co-joe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:36 pm I don't think they can take a full load that far. But it does go to show what an impressive machine the 321 neo is. That said I'm also not sure what the cost per available seat mile is compared to an A350 or 787 either. I doubt the neo is going to be competitive on long haul flights like that especially against wide bodied fleets.
Montreal - Bordeaux
Quebec City - Paris / London / Frankfurt
Halifax - Dublin / Manchester / Glasgow / Edinburgh
and so on.
Essentially, connect smaller markets anywhere in Western Europe. I wonder if airliners were to use secondary airports, would it make it a more successful route? St. John, NB to London, Luton.
Re: Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?
SAS will be flying their A321LR from CPH and ARN to YYZ this summer
https://simpleflying.com/sas-adds-toronto/
https://simpleflying.com/sas-adds-toronto/