Will Air Canada return to Eastern Europe?

[RoAF-Mig21]

With the "retirement" of Rouge 767, will Air Canada return its seasonal service to Eastern Europe?

Prior to the pandemic, Rouge operated flights to Prague (Czechia), Warsaw (Poland), Budapest (Hungary), Bucharest (Romania) and I believe Zagreb, (Croatia). I don't see the 737MAX or Rouge A321 going all the way there from YYZ or YUL without a stopover, so that leaves the 787-8 or the A330, since the 777 is pretty big for that market.

Any thoughts?

[rudder]

With the "retirement" of Rouge 767, will Air Canada return its seasonal service to Eastern Europe?

Prior to the pandemic, Rouge operated flights to Prague (Czechia), Warsaw (Poland), Budapest (Hungary), Bucharest (Romania) and I believe Zagreb, (Croatia). I don't see the 737MAX or Rouge A321 going all the way there from YYZ or YUL without a stopover, so that leaves the 787-8 or the A330, since the 777 is pretty big for that market.

Any thoughts?

If an A321NEO can do those routes then the answer is ‘yes’.

Watch for possible fleet news. Not sure about routes.

[TrustinThrust]

Take this with a grain of salt, but a senior 787 captain told me (before covid) that the 321neo and 350 rumours swirling around head office had some truth to them.

[Sharklasers]

Take this with a grain of salt, but a senior 787 captain told me (before covid) that the 321neo and 350 rumours swirling around head office had some truth to them.

It should be noted that 99% of “senior 787 captains” are just as in the dark and dumb as the rest of us, all pilots gossip and most of the shit passed around here is made up and pure fiction passed off as fact. Usually with the name of some manager attached. I have seen checkers and IOETCs pass off the most outlandish clearly wrong rumours as fact. Yes, precovid for a year we were ‘just weeks away’ from announcing a 350/321 order. First it was going to be at the Paris airshow, then Dubai, then the CNE. announcement never happened, maybe it was because of covid, or the Transat merger but more likely the fact that AC has very very VERY aggressively priced 787 and 737 options sitting on the books over at Boeing along with a big credit due to the max fiasco. So aggressively priced that even in the worst parts of the pandemic with loads in the crapper AC could afford to exercise some.

[iflyroads]

AC will be looking for a more diverse Airbus fleet revitalization sooner than later.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Even if they do get the A350, I doubt it will be used to go seasonally to Budapest. Maybe a 787-8 in all economy / prem. economy would make sense for these type of seasonal routes. The A321N/LR will not cut it (non-stop) for these routes, especially Westbound. Here are the Great Circle Distances to Eastern Europe that Rouge used to operate with their 767s

YYZ PRG 3,619 nm
YYZ WAW 3,755 nm
YYZ ZAG 3,830 nm
YYZ BUD 3,874 nm
YYZ OTP 4,203 nm


http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YYZ-PRG%0D ... =wls&DU=nm

[Sharklasers]

Even if they do get the A350, I doubt it will be used to go seasonally to Budapest. Maybe a 787-8 in all economy / prem. economy would make sense for these type of seasonal routes. The A321N/LR will not cut it (non-stop) for these routes, especially Westbound. Here are the Great Circle Distances to Eastern Europe that Rouge used to operate with their 767s

YYZ PRG 3,619 nm
YYZ WAW 3,755 nm
YYZ ZAG 3,830 nm
YYZ BUD 3,874 nm
YYZ OTP 4,203 nm


http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YYZ-PRG%0D ... =wls&DU=nm

I don’t think we are getting new single aisle Airbus but the 321XLR can comfortably do all those routes listed apparently

[RoAF-Mig21]

Even if they do get the A350, I doubt it will be used to go seasonally to Budapest. Maybe a 787-8 in all economy / prem. economy would make sense for these type of seasonal routes. The A321N/LR will not cut it (non-stop) for these routes, especially Westbound. Here are the Great Circle Distances to Eastern Europe that Rouge used to operate with their 767s

YYZ PRG 3,619 nm
YYZ WAW 3,755 nm
YYZ ZAG 3,830 nm
YYZ BUD 3,874 nm
YYZ OTP 4,203 nm


http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YYZ-PRG%0D ... =wls&DU=nm

I don’t think we are getting new single aisle Airbus but the 321XLR can comfortably do all those routes listed apparently

Wow! I just looked at the A321XLR range: They say 4700 nm. That's pretty impressive regardless... I imagine these are ranges in optimal conditions (zero wind). Coming westbound from Bucharest to Toronto, not flying the exact Great Circle, strong headwinds, alternate, reserve... I don't know, even the 4700 nm range is pushing it.

[Sharklasers]

Even if they do get the A350, I doubt it will be used to go seasonally to Budapest. Maybe a 787-8 in all economy / prem. economy would make sense for these type of seasonal routes. The A321N/LR will not cut it (non-stop) for these routes, especially Westbound. Here are the Great Circle Distances to Eastern Europe that Rouge used to operate with their 767s

YYZ PRG 3,619 nm
YYZ WAW 3,755 nm
YYZ ZAG 3,830 nm
YYZ BUD 3,874 nm
YYZ OTP 4,203 nm


http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YYZ-PRG%0D ... =wls&DU=nm

I don’t think we are getting new single aisle Airbus but the 321XLR can comfortably do all those routes listed apparently

Wow! I just looked at the A321XLR range: They say 4700 nm. That's pretty impressive in regardless... I imagine these are ranges in optimal conditions (zero wind). Coming westbound from Bucharest to Toronto, not flying the exact Great Circle, strong headwinds, alternate, reserve... I don't know, even the 4700 nm range is pushing it.

From the past in how they handled the A319 ETOPs the would just do direct the 85% of the time it works and plan a tech stop in Shannon or Gander for the days it doesn’t.

[Oxi]

YYZ BUD on the 787 starting May to Oct 2022

[RoAF-Mig21]

YYZ BUD on the 787 starting May to Oct 2022

That's absolutely AMAZING! That news just made my day!

[TheStig]

The retirement of the 767's leaves a big ASM hole to fill on the transatlantic market. Air Canada has been reconfiguring its A330's to passenger configuration for this summers anticipated traffic. The rouge 767's offered a low risk ability to fly 280 passengers a 5T/hour with low cost Flight Attendants. The mainline product would be competitive in big markets like BCN and ATH but AC never seemed to think its could offer service to smaller markets like ZAG, OPO and BUD prior to rouge.

Ordering 3 billion dollars worth of A321XLR's isn't exactly low risk, especially with a new CEO who has a reputation for a tight grip on the purse strings and a pandemic that teases everyone with false starts. On paper the 321XLR looks to be able to fly most of the 767 routes with the exception of ATH, OTP and BUD. The 321 would address a major weakness of the rouge 767 in that it's a better fit for the winter markets where a 767 is 'too much' aircraft. You've got to think there are a lot of airlines taking a close look at the A321 LR/XLR to see how it performs in the real world, but I'd expect AC to move cautiously.

[fish4life]

321 XLR will run into lots of baggage bulk out issues as well. AT was running out of baggage space with the 321neoLR’s since the extra fuel takes away from baggage space.
The XLR is good if you are planning on running like flat seating to reduce the total number of pax and associated baggage

[Rooster69]

YYZ BUD on the 787 starting May to Oct 2022

That's absolutely AMAZING! That news just made my day!

Budapest is a fun city!

[RoAF-Mig21]

YYZ BUD on the 787 starting May to Oct 2022

That's absolutely AMAZING! That news just made my day!

Budapest is a fun city!

Yeah. It absolutely is. I'm looking forward to it. Maybe I'll take a trip in May when service starts.

[co-joe]

Wow! I just looked at the A321XLR range: They say 4700 nm. That's pretty impressive regardless... I imagine these are ranges in optimal conditions (zero wind). Coming westbound from Bucharest to Toronto, not flying the exact Great Circle, strong headwinds, alternate, reserve... I don't know, even the 4700 nm range is pushing it.

Air Transat flew a leg that long in 2018 to demonstrate the possibility. I doubt they had much payload for a trip that long but it's an impressive feat none the less.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air- ... index.html

Air Transat flight TS690 flew transatlantic from Montreal, Canada, to Athens, Greece, on Monday -- a journey of 7,600 kilometers, or 4,754 miles. So far, so normal -- except the eight-hour, 32-minute flight was performed in a narrowbody Airbus A321neoLR.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Wow! I just looked at the A321XLR range: They say 4700 nm. That's pretty impressive regardless... I imagine these are ranges in optimal conditions (zero wind). Coming westbound from Bucharest to Toronto, not flying the exact Great Circle, strong headwinds, alternate, reserve... I don't know, even the 4700 nm range is pushing it.

Air Transat flew a leg that long in 2018 to demonstrate the possibility. I doubt they had much payload for a trip that long but it's an impressive feat none the less.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air- ... index.html

Air Transat flight TS690 flew transatlantic from Montreal, Canada, to Athens, Greece, on Monday -- a journey of 7,600 kilometers, or 4,754 miles. So far, so normal -- except the eight-hour, 32-minute flight was performed in a narrowbody Airbus A321neoLR.

Right, I remember that. That was pretty impressive, though I'm not sure how that will translate into "normal operations". I imagine there were some load restrictions, right?

[co-joe]

I don't think they can take a full load that far. But it does go to show what an impressive machine the 321 neo is. That said I'm also not sure what the cost per available seat mile is compared to an A350 or 787 either. I doubt the neo is going to be competitive on long haul flights like that especially against wide bodied fleets.

[RoAF-Mig21]

I don't think they can take a full load that far. But it does go to show what an impressive machine the 321 neo is. That said I'm also not sure what the cost per available seat mile is compared to an A350 or 787 either. I doubt the neo is going to be competitive on long haul flights like that especially against wide bodied fleets.

True. The A321XLR is quite the machine. I'm genuinely impressed. It may not be competitive on a YYZ-ATH or YYZ-FRA, but it opens up markets that would never be financially feasible. Markets like:

Montreal - Bordeaux
Quebec City - Paris / London / Frankfurt
Halifax - Dublin / Manchester / Glasgow / Edinburgh

and so on.

Essentially, connect smaller markets anywhere in Western Europe. I wonder if airliners were to use secondary airports, would it make it a more successful route? St. John, NB to London, Luton.

[twa22]

SAS will be flying their A321LR from CPH and ARN to YYZ this summer

https://simpleflying.com/sas-adds-toronto/