Flat pay and unions...

[Flight94]

As someone who is considering AC in the future, can someone explain why the union allows the abysmal starting pay? Is this something that will be actively pursued on the next CBA?

I'm on the outside looking in; I have no knowledge of the inner workings of ACPA.

While I'd like to work for AC, I cannot feed a family on 55k(?).

[Bingo Fuel]

Pursued? Probably. I'm hopeful we can make changes in 2024.

However, in the past the Company has only used other Canadian airlines as benchmarks for pilot pay.

Airlines in the USA are not considered comparative as long as Canadian pilots remain ineligible for employment there.

Personally I'm hopeful that they remove flat pay from Widebody FO positions, as they've had problems filling those positions with qualified pilots. That might make things a little better, and allow pilots to get off flat pay faster. Right now there is no financial incentive for a flat pay pilot to take a Widebody FO position when they'll be paid the same as a Relief Pilot.

[Tbayer2021]

Why would they change it when they have almost every pilot wanting to fly for them despite 4 years of flat pay?

[Flight94]

Right, I understand why the company would not want to change it. However my question is why does the union allow it? If the company had all the say, with no union, I'm sure the pay would be even lower, and the applications would still be abundant.

[Tbayer2021]

The union doesn't decide pay. During negotiations, numbers get thrown around until both parties agree on something. I believe the latest pay-scale was an arbitrated ruling, I could be wrong though.

[Malfunction]

What is yrs 1-4 after tax take home? How much per month in perdiums

[NotDirty!]

What is yrs 1-4 after tax take home? How much per month in perdiums

Gross monthly minimum guarantee (up to 75 hours):
FO 01 $4,687.16
FO 02 $5,124.74
FO 03 $5,840.01
FO 04 $6,539.99
If you work more than 75 hours you get paid 1/75th of that per hour. (Actually 1/60th of 1/75th per minute… works out to about $1.04 to $1.45/minute over 75:00). Those numbers will go up by {not enough to cover inflation} in April.

How much you take home varies a lot depending on what equipment you’re on, and what kind of flying you do. Per diems vary similarly. There is a list of per diem rates by layover location… they have a set amount per meal, based on what it costs to eat at the layover hotel, and it is updated from time to time. If they board a meal for you on a flight that goes over a meal time, you don’t get the per diem, as they fed you instead. For all Canada/US flights, there are no meals provided, so you get paid per diems if your flight crosses designated meal times, and if you layover, a similar system is used to calculate what you are owed.
So your monthly per diems can vary greatly… if you do long layovers in expensive countries, you may get $1500+ in per diems. If you do all single day turns to the Caribbean (where meals are provided in flight) you may get hardly anything in terms of per diems.

Actual take home for me, including per diems, was about $4250 - $4700 in my first year (2018). I also took home a $6212.32 profit share cheque in April of 2019. (And another $6189 the next year… maybe we’ll see profit share again in a couple of years!)
Now as a 4th year FO my take home has been about $5800 per month.

[Flight94]

What is yrs 1-4 after tax take home? How much per month in perdiums

Gross monthly minimum guarantee (up to 75 hours):
FO 01 $4,687.16
FO 02 $5,124.74
FO 03 $5,840.01
FO 04 $6,539.99
If you work more than 75 hours you get paid 1/75th of that per hour. (Actually 1/60th of 1/75th per minute… works out to about $1.04 to $1.45/minute over 75:00). Those numbers will go up by {not enough to cover inflation} in April.

How much you take home varies a lot depending on what equipment you’re on, and what kind of flying you do. Per diems vary similarly. There is a list of per diem rates by layover location… they have a set amount per meal, based on what it costs to eat at the layover hotel, and it is updated from time to time. If they board a meal for you on a flight that goes over a meal time, you don’t get the per diem, as they fed you instead. For all Canada/US flights, there are no meals provided, so you get paid per diems if your flight crosses designated meal times, and if you layover, a similar system is used to calculate what you are owed.
So your monthly per diems can vary greatly… if you do long layovers in expensive countries, you may get $1500+ in per diems. If you do all single day turns to the Caribbean (where meals are provided in flight) you may get hardly anything in terms of per diems.

Actual take home for me, including per diems, was about $4250 - $4700 in my first year (2018). I also took home a $6212.32 profit share cheque in April of 2019. (And another $6189 the next year… maybe we’ll see profit share again in a couple of years!)
Now as a 4th year FO my take home has been about $5800 per month.

Thank you for the information

[Flight94]

One more question, if you upgrade within that 4 years, do you still stay on the flat pay?

[altiplano]

One more question, if you upgrade within that 4 years, do you still stay on the flat pay?

No. Formula pay for Captains.

[Arnie Pye]

I don't work for Air Canada, nor do I want to; specifically because of the flat pay.
Why is it allowed? It was probably negotiated in by people that wouldn't be affected. Larger companies will say that they have X budget for salary per year and it's really only the distribution of those funds that are up for discussion. If your negotiating committee is stacked with senior captains and a few senior FO's for looks, guess where you will see the biggest salary gains? It sure won't be on the bottom end.

Even $70k is a terrible salary for a 4th year employee.

[FL030]

It was probably negotiated in by people that wouldn't be affected.

That's why I have my doubts it will be gone in 2024. Most of the recent hiring boom pilots will be off flat pay by then and won't care about it as much anymore.

[DanWEC]

IMG-20220211-WA0000.jpg (117.58 KiB) Viewed 7774 times

[lownslow]

can someone explain why the union allows the abysmal starting pay?

Okay, so imagine this big red button in front of you. You’re told that if you press it you get a million dollars but someone you’ve probably never met will also instantaneously die. Do you press it?

What if instead of that, it was you get ten dollars but some stranger will lose a hundred? Do you press it now?

Someone did.

[Aspiredtofly]

I'm a new pilot here who just started flight training. I just don't understand why things are like this atleast for now, I'm considering to set my whole career with AC mainline but due to all of this drama going on with very low starting pay I'm not sure if this will ever even change? When will ACPA ractify a new contract? What is the current payscale as of 2022? Are there any opportunities to pick up overtime? How's the lifestyle like? How many days do new hires work? How long until you can get off reserve? Current captain position holdings at different bases? And lastly how did you guys manage to live off with that 4 years of flat pay?.
I'm asking all of this above just to make the right decision between all airlines that exist here. My main focus is to gain experience switch jobs and probably get hired with jazz and then move onto AC or move towards Air Transat, Westjet. I'm trying to make a decision here thanks.....

[a220hereicome]

I'm a new pilot here who just started flight training. I just don't understand why things are like this atleast for now, I'm considering to set my whole career with AC mainline but due to all of this drama going on with very low starting pay I'm not sure if this will ever even change? When will ACPA ractify a new contract? What is the current payscale as of 2022? Are there any opportunities to pick up overtime? How's the lifestyle like? How many days do new hires work? How long until you can get off reserve? Current captain position holdings at different bases? And lastly how did you guys manage to live off with that 4 years of flat pay?.
I'm asking all of this above just to make the right decision between all airlines that exist here. My main focus is to gain experience switch jobs and probably get hired with jazz and then move onto AC or move towards Air Transat, Westjet. If any Westjet guys want to share their payscale then please do so, I'm trying to make a decision here thanks.....

Some pilots considering joining AC choose not to because they simply can't afford the first four years of flat pay. I can understand this, if you're 45 years old with a family, servicing a big mortgage in YYZ or YVR, it's a tough choice. But most find a way.

In your case, if you're 25 years old (I don't know your age), I'm guessing you don't have those complicating factors. If you choose not to apply to AC because of the starting wage...then you'll have 35 years from age 30 to 65 to wonder if you made the right decision. That's an awfully long time.

The starting pay at AC is really bad, and there's no justification for it. The industry standard is much higher with pretty much any airline that you want to use as a reasonable comparator. The four year grid should never have negotiated back in 2010-2012, but it's there. I hope it gets moved to industry standard, but that bargaining goal always seems to lose traction during negotiations. 2024 is the next opportunity to make a big improvement on the starting wage, I hope we can achieve that.

[newlygrounded]

I don't work for Air Canada, nor do I want to; specifically because of the flat pay.
Why is it allowed? It was probably negotiated in by people that wouldn't be affected. Larger companies will say that they have X budget for salary per year and it's really only the distribution of those funds that are up for discussion. If your negotiating committee is stacked with senior captains and a few senior FO's for looks, guess where you will see the biggest salary gains? It sure won't be on the bottom end.

Even $70k is a terrible salary for a 4th year employee.

Back in my day 70 you could live like a king!
Says guy with no degree and bought his house for $98,000 and car insurance is $85 a month

[Aspiredtofly]

I don't work for Air Canada, nor do I want to; specifically because of the flat pay.
Why is it allowed? It was probably negotiated in by people that wouldn't be affected. Larger companies will say that they have X budget for salary per year and it's really only the distribution of those funds that are up for discussion. If your negotiating committee is stacked with senior captains and a few senior FO's for looks, guess where you will see the biggest salary gains? It sure won't be on the bottom end.

Even $70k is a terrible salary for a 4th year employee.

Back in my day 70 you could live like a king!
Says guy with no degree and bought his house for $98,000 and car insurance is $85 a month

Could we all please keep this as a useful thread with relevant information rather than talking about how things were decades ago.

[Ash Ketchum]

Is there enough time for a junior AC FO to run a side business or do a second job? Unfortunately it seems that is the only way I can make the flat pay work for my family.

[Aspiredtofly]

Is there enough time for a junior AC FO to run a side business or do a second job? Unfortunately it seems that is the only way I can make the flat pay work for my family.

If your a jazz CA then its best if you save alot money at the side as an income to overcome that 4 years of low starting pay. If you manage to save well then I believe you can have around 5-7K take home pay per month as a 1-4 year FO at AC and if you upgrade as a CA quickly on the narrowbody then you won't have to complain about your finances very much. Few years as a CA get things settle down with your family and move to a widebody FO(If you want to), that's how I'm assuming it should be done.

[scabbydoo]

Is there enough time for a junior AC FO to run a side business or do a second job? Unfortunately it seems that is the only way I can make the flat pay work for my family.

If your a jazz CA then its best if you save alot money at the side as an income to overcome that 4 years of low starting pay. If you manage to save well then I believe you can have around 5-7K take home pay per month as a 1-4 year FO at AC and if you upgrade as a CA quickly on the narrowbody then you won't have to complain about your finances very much. Few years as a CA get things settle down with your family to overcome problems and move to a widebody FO(If you want to), that's how I'm assuming it should be done.

WB FO off flat pay can be quite lucrative, however you'd rately see someone move from NB CA to WB FO (unless they can hold WB CA in short order).

[Ash Ketchum]

Is there enough time for a junior AC FO to run a side business or do a second job? Unfortunately it seems that is the only way I can make the flat pay work for my family.

If your a jazz CA then its best if you save alot money at the side as an income to overcome that 4 years of low starting pay. If you manage to save well then I believe you can have around 5-7K take home pay per month as a 1-4 year FO at AC and if you upgrade as a CA quickly on the narrowbody then you won't have to complain about your finances very much. Few years as a CA get things settle down with your family to overcome problems and move to a widebody FO(If you want to), that's how I'm assuming it should be done.

WB FO off flat pay can be quite lucrative, however you'd rately see someone move from NB CA to WB FO (unless they can hold WB CA in short order).

Thanks. My goal would be to bid narrow body captain asap at AC and will take any base, schedule, and type as long as I can jump off flat pay early. Currently my family is still close to paycheck to paycheck while working as a Jazz captain in YYZ so hard to save much before going over to AC.

[Aspiredtofly]

Is there enough time for a junior AC FO to run a side business or do a second job? Unfortunately it seems that is the only way I can make the flat pay work for my family.

If your a jazz CA then its best if you save alot money at the side as an income to overcome that 4 years of low starting pay. If you manage to save well then I believe you can have around 5-7K take home pay per month as a 1-4 year FO at AC and if you upgrade as a CA quickly on the narrowbody then you won't have to complain about your finances very much. Few years as a CA get things settle down with your family to overcome problems and move to a widebody FO(If you want to), that's how I'm assuming it should be done.

WB FO off flat pay can be quite lucrative, however you'd rately see someone move from NB CA to WB FO (unless they can hold WB CA in short order).

Holding WB CA is quite a long road especially at AC. I've heard it from some guys that say it takes 18-25 years to hold seats as a WB CA. Well however as a WB FO you can experience the Middle east, Asia, Europe and basically every part of the world with your awful long layovers. Problem is that you will have less landings and takeoffs and if you choose to fly alot of international then your probably away from home alot. Depends upon your preferences and what you really want to do

[Canadaflyer46]

I don't work for Air Canada, nor do I want to; specifically because of the flat pay.
Why is it allowed? It was probably negotiated in by people that wouldn't be affected. Larger companies will say that they have X budget for salary per year and it's really only the distribution of those funds that are up for discussion. If your negotiating committee is stacked with senior captains and a few senior FO's for looks, guess where you will see the biggest salary gains? It sure won't be on the bottom end.

Even $70k is a terrible salary for a 4th year employee.

Back in my day 70 you could live like a king!
Says guy with no degree and bought his house for $98,000 and car insurance is $85 a month

Could we all please keep this as a useful thread with relevant information rather than talking about how things were decades ago. Can someone mention the 4 years of flat pay for 2022, you cant just stick it out with old payrates and aggrements. We need relevant information!

You need to calm down dude. You haven't even got your licenses yet and you're actually stressing about the pay at AC.

[Sharklasers]

If your a jazz CA then its best if you save alot money at the side as an income to overcome that 4 years of low starting pay. If you manage to save well then I believe you can have around 5-7K take home pay per month as a 1-4 year FO at AC and if you upgrade as a CA quickly on the narrowbody then you won't have to complain about your finances very much. Few years as a CA get things settle down with your family to overcome problems and move to a widebody FO(If you want to), that's how I'm assuming it should be done.

WB FO off flat pay can be quite lucrative, however you'd rately see someone move from NB CA to WB FO (unless they can hold WB CA in short order).

Holding WB CA is quite a long road especially at AC. I've heard it from some guys that say it takes 18-25 years to hold seats as a WB CA. Well however as a WB FO you can experience the Middle east, Asia, Europe and basically every part of the world with your awful long layovers. Problem is that you will have less landings and takeoffs and if you choose to fly alot of international then your probably away from home alot. Depends upon your preferences and what you want to do really!

This guys is probably 12-14 and an Air Cadet. He clearly does not know what he is talking about.