Flat pay and unions...

[schnitzel2k3]

Does anyone think that AC's carrot of a 350k/year wide body job at 25 years of seniority is still enough for people to sign up for 4 years of flat pay in 2022? Seems like it's a much bigger ask with the cost of living and inflation where it's currently at. I know of a few people who were willing to make the 4 year sacrifice pre covid but are unable to make the move today if they had the opportunity due to the high cost of living.

I am in the same boat. Honestly I don't think I can afford to make the move to AC unless upgrades go very junior and I can supplement my income off savings/line of credit until the upgrade.

No flight crew position at AC should be less than 100k to start, with a significant and steady increase IMHO, considering no commuting policy and that the 3 bases are in the 3 of the top most expensive cities in North America.

That small change would see a massive jump in worthy applicants at both the feeder and OTS who have put off applying because they made more flying pipeline patrol 20 years ago.

It would also give Jazz room to bump of their starting salaries as they are compressed under AC.

[rudder]

Does anyone think that AC's carrot of a 350k/year wide body job at 25 years of seniority is still enough for people to sign up for 4 years of flat pay in 2022? Seems like it's a much bigger ask with the cost of living and inflation where it's currently at. I know of a few people who were willing to make the 4 year sacrifice pre covid but are unable to make the move today if they had the opportunity due to the high cost of living.

I am in the same boat. Honestly I don't think I can afford to make the move to AC unless upgrades go very junior and I can supplement my income off savings/line of credit until the upgrade.

No flight crew position at AC should be less than 100k to start, with a significant and steady increase IMHO, considering no commuting policy and that the 3 bases are in the 3 of the top most expensive cities in North America.

That small change would see a massive jump in worthy applicants at both the feeder and OTS who have put off applying because they made more flying pipeline patrol 20 years ago.

It would also give Jazz room to bump of their starting salaries as they are compressed under AC.

Let’s extrapolate that idea.

AC should interview all pilots to be hired at both mainline and Jazz. AC decides who will attend which PIT course.

Tenure for pay starts on Day 1 regardless of property.

Seniority accrual would involve discussion between ACPA, ALPA, and AC.

College kids assigned only to Jazz PIT courses. Make movement to AC contingent upon being left seat at Jazz (yes, that would take several years if starting at Jazz with 250 hours).

ATPL pilots would either be assigned to AC PIT or Jazz PIT based on staffing requirements at Jazz for DEC or rapid upgrade (upgrade planned prior to first recurrent training cycle).

AC year 1 FO/RP pay (salary) should be no less than Jazz year 1 CA pay. Same for any year at AC that remains salary vs formula pay.

Is this likely? No. But status quo is going to be problematic for the entire AC system. Time to start to think outside the box. US legacy carriers are light years ahead of where AC and Jazz are on this.

[schnitzel2k3]

I am in the same boat. Honestly I don't think I can afford to make the move to AC unless upgrades go very junior and I can supplement my income off savings/line of credit until the upgrade.

No flight crew position at AC should be less than 100k to start, with a significant and steady increase IMHO, considering no commuting policy and that the 3 bases are in the 3 of the top most expensive cities in North America.

That small change would see a massive jump in worthy applicants at both the feeder and OTS who have put off applying because they made more flying pipeline patrol 20 years ago.

It would also give Jazz room to bump of their starting salaries as they are compressed under AC.

Let’s extrapolate that idea.

AC should interview all pilots to be hired at both mainline and Jazz. AC decides who will attend which PIT course.

Tenure for pay starts on Day 1 regardless of property.

Seniority accrual would involve discussion between ACPA, ALPA, and AC.

College kids assigned only to Jazz PIT courses. Make movement to AC contingent upon being left seat at Jazz (yes, that would take several years if starting at Jazz with 250 hours).

ATPL pilots would either be assigned to AC PIT or Jazz PIT based on staffing requirements at Jazz for DEC or rapid upgrade (upgrade planned prior to first recurrent training cycle).

AC year 1 FO/RP pay (salary) should be no less than Jazz year 1 CA pay. Same for any year at AC that remains salary vs formula pay.

Is this likely? No. But status quo is going to be problematic for the entire AC system. Time to start to think outside the box. US legacy carriers are light years ahead of where AC and Jazz are on this.

What's Jazz' skipper salary these days? I'm way out of touch with the regional stuff after COVID.

[rudder]

What's Jazz' skipper salary these days? I'm way out of touch with the regional stuff after COVID.

At 82.5 credits per block month (monthly block target = min monthly pay guarantee) would be around $85k for a year 1 CA. Not saying that is enough, but that is the current number.

I could see mainline salary changed to just 2 years (to allow AC to continue to control PIT equipment assignments available and freezes). But salary year 1 at least $85k and year 2 at least $90k. Formula pay after that. Use another course right in year 3 to get a higher paying assignment if desired.

[Cavalier44]

Let’s extrapolate that idea.

AC should interview all pilots to be hired at both mainline and Jazz. AC decides who will attend which PIT course.

Tenure for pay starts on Day 1 regardless of property.

Seniority accrual would involve discussion between ACPA, ALPA, and AC.

College kids assigned only to Jazz PIT courses. Make movement to AC contingent upon being left seat at Jazz (yes, that would take several years if starting at Jazz with 250 hours).

ATPL pilots would either be assigned to AC PIT or Jazz PIT based on staffing requirements at Jazz for DEC or rapid upgrade (upgrade planned prior to first recurrent training cycle).

AC year 1 FO/RP pay (salary) should be no less than Jazz year 1 CA pay. Same for any year at AC that remains salary vs formula pay.

Is this likely? No. But status quo is going to be problematic for the entire AC system. Time to start to think outside the box. US legacy carriers are light years ahead of where AC and Jazz are on this.

Interesting idea Rudder, but I think it fails to consider the experience level of OTS applicants to Air Canada.

Plenty of AC OTS applicants have significant experience (5,000 - 10,000 hour range), previous jet PIC, Airbus and Boeing type ratings, previous widebody experience, etc. A number of them are captains at their present employers. No disrespect to Jazz, but these kind of candidates are overqualified to be employed there as a DEC. What does Jazz offer me, for example, that remaining at my present employer doesn't? If I wanted to work there, I'd apply there, rather than applying to Air Canada.

I think you'd run into the issue of disincentivizing experienced candidates from applying to Air Canada if they thought it would be a 50/50 chance that they'd end up being placed at Jazz for an indeterminate period of time, depending on what the staffing requirements were.

I do agree with you that the entire flat play system needs to be revamped or discarded. No one should be put in the position of trying to figure out how to make ends meet after taking a 50% pay cut (or worse!) to go from their present employer to Air Canada.

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

I think big things are about to happen with Jazz ALPA and ACPA. Things are on the move.

[Malfunction]

I hope, if anything happens it benifits both pilot groups. We are in this together.

[sportingrifle]

Capt.Harshcoldreality is correct, big changes are coming. And Cavalier understands what rudder doesn’t want to-AC desperately wants the highly qualified OTS applicants while they can still get them. We have no interest in starting a cadet program.

My personal opinion is that Air Canada’s backward new hire pay scale will disappear all on its own at the next contract. Hopefully ACPA in general, and the ChildrenForChange in particular, are smart enough to realize that they don’t have to spend their bargaining capital to achieve it.

[Fanblade]

the ChildrenForChange in particular

Why all the demographically derogatory comments about P4C. It’s not just your comments I refer to. It seems to be the standard rebuttal.

The C4C as you put it, are everywhere. Every seniority band. You share flight decks with them. They are your Captains, First Officers and RP’s. It’s not age that brought them together. It was a common belief that the backward WAWCON had to stop. That ACPA reps were behaving more like management than unionists.

At one point there was a published P4C supporter list. It was long. It had broad seniority support and had many ex committee members on it. Unfortunately it had to be taken down over harassment issues. It made people targets. So it’s underground.

Since then P4C has been painted as junior and inexperienced by the status quo. Much like what the YVR councillors just did. The YVR councillor’s were simply playing to their already slim support with their, we need to stay because the children for change are too inexperienced. That messaging is not only false it is also polarizing.

The reason you see, by in large more junior candidates, is because that is what the membership wanted. The demographics have changed. These more junior candidates are not young. Some are in their 40’s, and many have vast experience within unions prior to joining Air Canada. They know what a functional union looks like and works like.

[Fanblade]

My personal opinion is that Air Canada’s backward new hire pay scale will disappear all on its own at the next contract. Hopefully ACPA in general, and the ChildrenForChange in particular, are smart enough to realize that they don’t have to spend their bargaining capital to achieve it.

Now that I finished my rant.


We ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET new hire wages simply change on their own. Nor do we use bargaining capital to change them. Exactly the opposite. We leverage this situation.

Put another way. You want to raise new hire wages? Great. In exchange we want x.

That is how C4C thinks. They think like……………..get this. Unionists.

Rudder is bang on. The company needs this. To solve the issue they need us. And we need a raise.

[rudder]

And Cavalier understands what rudder doesn’t want to-AC desperately wants the highly qualified OTS applicants while they can still get them. We have no interest in starting a cadet program.

I understand. But what I also know is that AC has entered in to binding agreements directly via the CHR CPA and indirectly via the Jazz ALPA CBA for a system that it feels may not be creating the experience pipeline that it desires. It perhaps simply reinforces that there may be a better arrangement. However, until that multilateral agreement happens, status quo hiring ratios prevail.

If Jazz continues to hire high percentage ‘direct entry’ college cadets this may become moot as at some point there will no longer be any Jazz candidates that meet the AC application minimums.

[Stu Pidasso]

C4C - now that's funny!

The Jazz flow through is going to be interesting. We certainly inherited some problem children, as a Jazz friend of mine said; " we sent most of the @ssholes to AC."

250 hours to get hired at Jazz, 24 months later get hired at AC and for (some - not all) quite a sense of entitlement.

Flight Ops Management is not a lover of the deal, it was pretty much crammed down their throats.

[rudder]

Flight Ops Management is not a lover of the deal, it was pretty much crammed down their throats.

That sounds about the same reaction as the Jazz pilots to Contract 2015 and Contract 2018.

Don’t worry, they’ll get over it. Or they could be proactive and try to fix it.

Is the same attention being devoted by ‘Flight Ops Management’ to fixing flat pay at AC? Or is it considered ideal to fill WB FO vacancies with new-hires at $59k/yr?

[Fanblade]

Flight Ops Management is not a lover of the deal, it was pretty much crammed down their throats.

The over riding reason for the deal was, and still is, economics. People flowing through Jazz, rather than staying and climbing the payscales, is part of what keeps Jazz’s costs down. It drastically reduced the turnstile at the bottom of the list to Encore and others. As a pilots shortage looms, career progression “carrots” will be increasingly used for retention.

But on to your problem children comments.

Perhaps if Air Canada doesn’t want the problem children from Jazz? They do Jazz’s hiring in the first place. Of course AC did interview these people prior to flow through. So maybe that’s not the actual problem.

If ACPA or AC management still think this is a problem child issue? They have a rude awakening coming.

Just look at the last election results and the latest recall. In YVR at least 2/3 of the pilots who voted must be problem children. That must mean at least 80% or greater of the recent hires are problem children.

Perhaps there is another explanation?

Perhaps the real issue is AC has been too successful in capitalizing on ACPA’s willingness to give. Maybe AC has been overindulging in its “relationship” with ACPA.

[BingBong]

That must mean at least 80% or greater of the recent hires are problem children.

The preferred politically correct term is now dipshits…I’m ordering flight bag stickers

[eurotrash]

My personal opinion is that Air Canada’s backward new hire pay scale will disappear all on its own at the next contract. Hopefully ACPA in general, and the ChildrenForChange in particular, are smart enough to realize that they don’t have to spend their bargaining capital to achieve it.

So if, and I am just speculating, the recall vote fails, especially if it fails by more than 50%, what are the LEC councillors going to do? By rights they should all resign on mass. They started this whole deal because they couldn't work with the chair and vice chair. If the tribe speaks and keeps the chair and vice chair, they have to resign. But I bet they won't.

So have you emailed your base chairs asking them to resign yet?


SportingRifle:

I repeat - have you emailed your base reps yet asking them to resign or do you think this is good governance?

Or are you part of the new legion " Senior Pilots Acting as Selfish Zealots"?

SPAASZ

[sportingrifle]

Euro trash….oh wow, I didn’t realize that I touched a nerve.

I haven’t emailed anybody to resign simply because by and large, I stay fairly far from union politics. While I appreciate the P4C groups desire for change, and agree that ACPA has missed numerous opportunities to improve the Air Canada pilots lot in life, the ignorance of the P4C group is scary. They don’t understand airline union history, Canadian labor law, or AC management. Kinda like somebody who just solo’s a C-152 jumping in the “Triple.”

Ultimately, whatever they achieve, good or bad, won’t really affect me. I am a 777 training captain with less than a decade to go. I have walked two picket lines that produced some fundamental contract protections we all now take for granted, seen 4 recessions, one bankruptcy, one near bankruptcy, 3 attempts to outsource our jobs, 9-11, a merger, Covid, and a been a member of - and lied to by CALPA, ALPA, and ACPA - not to mention a pile of other unpleasant labour related events.
I have privately reached out to P4C but they seem to have little interest in hearing anything that doesn’t fit their narrative. Crickets. But I am old school and believe that piloting is a profession, not a job. And that we should leave the profession at the end of our careers in better shape than when we started our careers. I am truly sorry that you see this as “Senior Pilots Acting As Selfish Zealots.”

[Arnie Pye]

Capt.Harshcoldreality is correct, big changes are coming. And Cavalier understands what rudder doesn’t want to-AC desperately wants the highly qualified OTS applicants while they can still get them. We have no interest in starting a cadet program.

My personal opinion is that Air Canada’s backward new hire pay scale will disappear all on its own at the next contract. Hopefully ACPA in general, and the ChildrenForChange in particular, are smart enough to realize that they don’t have to spend their bargaining capital to achieve it.

When it does, I'll apply. As long as the starting pay is $50k I'll stay where I am and begrudgingly pay twice that in tax. After 15 years doing this for a living, I can't see going back to making anything less than $100k.

[ReturnoftheMike]

Euro trash….oh wow, I didn’t realize that I touched a nerve.

I haven’t emailed anybody to resign simply because by and large, I stay fairly far from union politics. While I appreciate the P4C groups desire for change, and agree that ACPA has missed numerous opportunities to improve the Air Canada pilots lot in life, the ignorance of the P4C group is scary. They don’t understand airline union history, Canadian labor law, or AC management. Kinda like somebody who just solo’s a C-152 jumping in the “Triple.”

Ultimately, whatever they achieve, good or bad, won’t really affect me. I am a 777 training captain with less than a decade to go. I have walked two picket lines that produced some fundamental contract protections we all now take for granted, seen 4 recessions, one bankruptcy, one near bankruptcy, 3 attempts to outsource our jobs, 9-11, a merger, Covid, and a been a member of - and lied to by CALPA, ALPA, and ACPA - not to mention a pile of other unpleasant labour related events.
I have privately reached out to P4C but they seem to have little interest in hearing anything that doesn’t fit their narrative. Crickets. But I am old school and believe that piloting is a profession, not a job. And that we should leave the profession at the end of our careers in better shape than when we started our careers. I am truly sorry that you see this as “Senior Pilots Acting As Selfish Zealots.”

Well done SportingRifle

Put these immature imbeciles of colic crying children in place. These kids, in their 40s & 50s know nothing other than to fill tissues with stories of pay & US airlines compensation. Back in my day I was filling up tissues from my stash of Hustlers & dirty audio tapes and didnt have time for such drivel. One day they will realize how lucky they are to be at a Flag Carrier and not Flair, who don't play fair by paying their FOs more

We walked uphill both ways barefoot when we were hired at 19 and righteously should rule the fiefdom as Knights with swords at the flight ops roundtable. These jesters are fools to think our great airline can afford to pay more to this profession and fail to support the corporate overlords. We need to keep the corporation close as they have done more for this profession than any union. Unions simply hinder an operation and impede corporate bonuses. Us likeminded "old school" scholars must continue to keep close friends to the executive emperors so as to battle off this malicious mutiny.

These blabbering babies' narratives of bettering a union through transparency, accountability & communication might look good in a book but we both know our experiences simply cannot be learned or read. These kids might have fancy diplomas & degrees, but do they know how to brag about your airplane AND boat to a guy who got furloughed that made more digging out basements?

Hopefully these fanatical fools of kids do the right thing and move over to the righteous rulers before they do anymore damage. We don't got much time left and certainly don't need to be bothered with this ceaseless & harassing tripe. It is interfering with my time for my family which really means spending time putting these twits in place on forums

[alkaseltzer]

How much proportional representation is there for pilots on flat pay?

If almost 50% of the pilots are on flat pay….