Flat pay and unions...

[scabbydoo]

Is there enough time for a junior AC FO to run a side business or do a second job? Unfortunately it seems that is the only way I can make the flat pay work for my family.

If your a jazz CA then its best if you save alot money at the side as an income to overcome that 4 years of low starting pay. If you manage to save well then I believe you can have around 5-7K take home pay per month as a 1-4 year FO at AC and if you upgrade as a CA quickly on the narrowbody then you won't have to complain about your finances very much. Few years as a CA get things settle down with your family to overcome problems and move to a widebody FO(If you want to), that's how I'm assuming it should be done.

WB FO off flat pay can be quite lucrative, however you'd rately see someone move from NB CA to WB FO (unless they can hold WB CA in short order).

[Ash Ketchum]

Is there enough time for a junior AC FO to run a side business or do a second job? Unfortunately it seems that is the only way I can make the flat pay work for my family.

If your a jazz CA then its best if you save alot money at the side as an income to overcome that 4 years of low starting pay. If you manage to save well then I believe you can have around 5-7K take home pay per month as a 1-4 year FO at AC and if you upgrade as a CA quickly on the narrowbody then you won't have to complain about your finances very much. Few years as a CA get things settle down with your family to overcome problems and move to a widebody FO(If you want to), that's how I'm assuming it should be done.

WB FO off flat pay can be quite lucrative, however you'd rately see someone move from NB CA to WB FO (unless they can hold WB CA in short order).

Thanks. My goal would be to bid narrow body captain asap at AC and will take any base, schedule, and type as long as I can jump off flat pay early. Currently my family is still close to paycheck to paycheck while working as a Jazz captain in YYZ so hard to save much before going over to AC.

[Aspiredtofly]

Is there enough time for a junior AC FO to run a side business or do a second job? Unfortunately it seems that is the only way I can make the flat pay work for my family.

If your a jazz CA then its best if you save alot money at the side as an income to overcome that 4 years of low starting pay. If you manage to save well then I believe you can have around 5-7K take home pay per month as a 1-4 year FO at AC and if you upgrade as a CA quickly on the narrowbody then you won't have to complain about your finances very much. Few years as a CA get things settle down with your family to overcome problems and move to a widebody FO(If you want to), that's how I'm assuming it should be done.

WB FO off flat pay can be quite lucrative, however you'd rately see someone move from NB CA to WB FO (unless they can hold WB CA in short order).

Holding WB CA is quite a long road especially at AC. I've heard it from some guys that say it takes 18-25 years to hold seats as a WB CA. Well however as a WB FO you can experience the Middle east, Asia, Europe and basically every part of the world with your awful long layovers. Problem is that you will have less landings and takeoffs and if you choose to fly alot of international then your probably away from home alot. Depends upon your preferences and what you really want to do

[Canadaflyer46]

I don't work for Air Canada, nor do I want to; specifically because of the flat pay.
Why is it allowed? It was probably negotiated in by people that wouldn't be affected. Larger companies will say that they have X budget for salary per year and it's really only the distribution of those funds that are up for discussion. If your negotiating committee is stacked with senior captains and a few senior FO's for looks, guess where you will see the biggest salary gains? It sure won't be on the bottom end.

Even $70k is a terrible salary for a 4th year employee.

Back in my day 70 you could live like a king!
Says guy with no degree and bought his house for $98,000 and car insurance is $85 a month

Could we all please keep this as a useful thread with relevant information rather than talking about how things were decades ago. Can someone mention the 4 years of flat pay for 2022, you cant just stick it out with old payrates and aggrements. We need relevant information!

You need to calm down dude. You haven't even got your licenses yet and you're actually stressing about the pay at AC.

[Sharklasers]

If your a jazz CA then its best if you save alot money at the side as an income to overcome that 4 years of low starting pay. If you manage to save well then I believe you can have around 5-7K take home pay per month as a 1-4 year FO at AC and if you upgrade as a CA quickly on the narrowbody then you won't have to complain about your finances very much. Few years as a CA get things settle down with your family to overcome problems and move to a widebody FO(If you want to), that's how I'm assuming it should be done.

WB FO off flat pay can be quite lucrative, however you'd rately see someone move from NB CA to WB FO (unless they can hold WB CA in short order).

Holding WB CA is quite a long road especially at AC. I've heard it from some guys that say it takes 18-25 years to hold seats as a WB CA. Well however as a WB FO you can experience the Middle east, Asia, Europe and basically every part of the world with your awful long layovers. Problem is that you will have less landings and takeoffs and if you choose to fly alot of international then your probably away from home alot. Depends upon your preferences and what you want to do really!

This guys is probably 12-14 and an Air Cadet. He clearly does not know what he is talking about.

[Hangry]

What are you guys talking about. Everyone is totally consumed with how many take offs and landings they get.

[PT6onH20]

8.4 MULTI-ENGINE JET EVERY TIME I GO TO WORK SUCKERS

[Sharklasers]

What are you guys talking about. Everyone is totally consumed with how many take offs and landings they get.

I know right? Thats why the LGA turns and the 4 days of the golden triangle go so senior every month.

[scdriver]

Back in my day 70 you could live like a king!
Says guy with no degree and bought his house for $98,000 and car insurance is $85 a month

Could we all please keep this as a useful thread with relevant information rather than talking about how things were decades ago. Can someone mention the 4 years of flat pay for 2022, you cant just stick it out with old payrates and aggrements. We need relevant information!

You need to calm down dude. You haven't even got your licenses yet and you're actually stressing about the pay at AC.

And explaining to folks on the AC forum how lifestyle and upgrades work on the WB side of things. Some sketchy info

[Aspiredtofly]

Could we all please keep this as a useful thread with relevant information rather than talking about how things were decades ago. Can someone mention the 4 years of flat pay for 2022, you cant just stick it out with old payrates and aggrements. We need relevant information!

You need to calm down dude. You haven't even got your licenses yet and you're actually stressing about the pay at AC.

And explaining to folks on the AC forum how lifestyle and upgrades work on the WB side of things. Some sketchy info

I'm not saying that all of the things I've mentioned are true. Im assuming it as how it should be again sorry if I'm being sketchy or skeptical about how things work here, you can correct me if I'm wrong though

[altiplano]

I'm not saying that all of the things I've mentioned are true. Im assuming it as how it should be again sorry if I'm being sketchy or skeptical about how things work here, you can correct me if I'm wrong though

Usually better to ask questions, or just don't say anything at all on topics you don't know anything about, rather than contributing things that are "(un)true" or "sketchy."

As you're just starting flight training you have quite a ways to go before Mainline terms and conditions should be on your radar, I'd suggest that you put your head down and get to work if you think this is something you may want to do.

[Aspiredtofly]

I'm not saying that all of the things I've mentioned are true. Im assuming it as how it should be again sorry if I'm being sketchy or skeptical about how things work here, you can correct me if I'm wrong though

Usually better to ask questions, or just don't say anything at all on topics you don't know anything about, rather than contributing things that are "(un)true" or "sketchy."

As you're just starting flight training you have quite a ways to go before Mainline terms and conditions should be on your radar, I'd suggest that you put your head down and get to work if you think this is something you may want to do.

Yes your right I should be focusing on other things now. Little anxiety crept in and I went all crazy here my bad I'm sorry...

[Ratherbe]

Hopefully flat pay gets addressed next year during our contract negotiations. However, it usually takes a back seat to other issues unfortunately. Sadly there isn’t much support to make changes for pilots that aren’t on the property yet. I think that position is shortsighted but that’s just my opinion. Also it’s not just the bargaining committee or the union - it’s the pilots themselves.

If you look at the history you can see what I mean. Many years ago, AC used to have a low 4 year flat monthly pay. It then went to 2 years starting at $39K per year until 2011. It was then bumped up to about $59K for the first year but was now a 4 year progression and paid as an hourly rate.

It seems that every 10-12 years we correct the flat pay rates so maybe next year it will get raised or maybe even eliminated entirely. Hopefully there is support.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Hopefully flat pay gets addressed next year during our contract negotiations. However, it usually takes a back seat to other issues unfortunately. Sadly there isn’t much support to make changes for pilots that aren’t on the property yet. I think that position is shortsighted but that’s just my opinion. Also it’s not just the bargaining committee or the union - it’s the pilots themselves.

If you look at the history you can see what I mean. Many years ago, AC used to have a low 4 year flat monthly pay. It then went to 2 years starting at $39K per year until 2011. It was then bumped up to about $59K for the first year but was now a 4 year progression and paid as an hourly rate.

It seems that every 10-12 years we correct the flat pay rates so maybe next year it will get raised or maybe even eliminated entirely. Hopefully there is support.

Flat pay effects everybody IMHO. It drags down the top end as well as it makes movement even harder. Seniority is a major barrier to movement between airlines as it is. Low, flat pay for 4 years just adds to that. In the US, where there is maybe 1 year of low pay, you see more movement. People with quite a few years seniority in one airline will move to another for a better base, or lifestyle, or long term pay potential. When you will earn over $200k Canadian in your 2nd year at Fedex or UPS it's not hard to give up 5-10 years seniority at another airline. When you have to endure at least 4 years of very low pay at AC, very few people with any seniority in another airline will make that move. The result is management doesn't have to worry about losing many of their more senior people no matter what they do.

[Stu Pidasso]

For those on the outside, looking in, Air Canada is an extremely Socialized Corporation (still run like a Crown Corporation) that exists in a Socialized Country. The unskilled labor is overpaid and the skilled labor in underpaid.

Welcome to the "Peoples Republic of Canukestan."

This is an Airline where the Flight Attendants are delusional enough to believe they are equal to the Pilots and should be paid accordingly. They took a run at this through an "equal pay for equal work" challenge. You can't fix - stupid.

That is unless you are at the Executive Level where all the rules change.

It is embarrassing that a Pilot would ever make less than the F/A delivering their Coffee or the Rampie loading the luggage. What happens at every Contract Negotiation is the list of improvements is through the roof, wage increase across the board, pension improvements, expenses etc.

New Hire pay falls through the cracks every time, it is not malicious but it happens.

Only way to fix it is having the application pool dry up and Pilots leaving for better paying Airlines (hope for the border to open up.)

On the up side, prior to Covid, the upgrade times were at record levels. 12 - 24 months to a Narrowbody Left Seat and those are around the corner again.

[GRK2]

Cabin Crew delivers your coffee? Oh they'll love hearing that! Better not let any of them find out who you are (if indeed you fly for a company that actually has Cabin Crew) you won't like what happens behind your self entitled backside.

[Sharklasers]

I’m not seeing the issue in what he said? Your flighties don’t deliver your coffee? He didn’t say they only make coffee. They certainly shouldn’t be paid more than the FO though.

[GRK2]

Read it again, the attitude reeks of entitlement and superiority. The argument in his post is about how much better he thinks pilots are than other members of his company. Guess again...without his cabin crew or rampies he's nobody but an arse in a seat waiting to go somewhere. There's a total lack of respect and it shows how much he merely tolerates but doesn't even come close to understanding what makes his job actually mean something. Some wonder why the senior ACPA members look down on this type? Here's one reason.

[Aspiredtofly]

One thing that I want to ask. So when pilots were furloughed due to COVID and all that, were they getting paid by the company to compensate for their living. How does this govenment funded employee compensation aid work?

[Malfunction]

Can't anyone post what a yr 5 FO makes after taxes? I understand there's many types just curious.