Onex buying Sunwing ?

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tbaylx
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by tbaylx »

boeingboy wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:06 am
WJA is not going to run 4 different AOC's for very long.
Of this I have no doubt. Eventually I see it will be folded into the mainline (or swoop). I can see some of the Westjet owned tails being painted in the Sunwing scheme for branding. The pilots and cabin crews will merge - with our side getting the very short end of the stick. Whether this happens Jan 1 2023 or sometime in 2026 or more could only be answered by the upper echelon - and at this point they probably don't even know.

I guess the only straw I could hope for is that Westjet is making a serious competitor to Rouge. This makes the most sense to me. As a business - A Westjet/Sunwing would crush AC Rouge in the vacation market. How they execute that is really anyone's guess right now.

From a strictly personal point of view - it would make sense to me (business wise) to fold Swoop into the new vacation division and have mainline simply offer a swoop class of fairs (much like AC did with Tango) As was said - running multiple AOC's doesn't make sense in the long run.
I'd say you're pretty much bang on with all of that. I'd guess 2024 for the pilot group merger to be completed.
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x-wind
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by x-wind »

I don't know much about anything least the pilot workings of Sunwing.

I have heard the pilots cycle to Europe in the summer to keep flying.

Any insights with this merger that Sunwing will still have Europe based flying for its pilots? I'm wondering if the purchase just included the N. American aspect of airline operations.
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cloak
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by cloak »

It was announced that more Canadian aircraft will be used(25?) to cover the winter flying that was previously done by EU aircraft and therefore likely summer deployments will come to an end since it was based on reciprocity.

It is also expected that few airplanes that used to be deployed in the summer will be put to use for year round sun destination flying. Previously Sunwing did not do much Sun flying in the summer since they could not fill the planes, but now they can be consolidated with WestJet’s flights.

It has also been said that Sunwing and WestJet tour operators will be combined to create a larger tour operator, likely WestJet tours? And likely operations will be merged rather swiftly to increase efficiency and make room for new growth. And barring any disasters, there should be lots of that, WB program will grow significantly, cargo is just beginning and will grow and 737 will grow too.

Post pandemic there will likely be more growth in price sensitive travel initially and as a result Swoop will grow more. Also in response to new entrants in the sector. It will be interesting to see how that will develop since all three new players, Flair, Lynx and Jetlines are heavily foreign funded and be interesting how they navigate the competitive landscape and foreign ownership and control laws at the same time.
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Babar350
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by Babar350 »

And again, Encore pilots will get screwed and will only be able to flow to swoop/sunwing which will make the career progression even longer with a C-scale.
I’m wondering how many will join AC in the coming years…
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by imjustlurking »

Babar350 wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:33 pm And again, Encore pilots will get screwed and will only be able to flow to swoop/sunwing which will make the career progression even longer with a C-scale.
I’m wondering how many will join AC in the coming years…
I can't afford to go to AC and make second year Encore FO rates. Seriously, what the funk is up with that?
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JBI
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by JBI »

imjustlurking wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:40 pm I can't afford to go to AC and make second year Encore FO rates. Seriously, what the funk is up with that?
AC 1st year flat pay is slightly higher than 6th year Encore FO pay rates.

It should be higher, but it's not as low as you suggest.
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cloak
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by cloak »

And there lies the biggest problem with Canadian aviation in terms of pilots pay. Supposedly the highest paying company is also one of the lowest paying! There is no justification for 4 long years of flat pay.
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Loon-A-Tic
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

cloak wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:10 am And there lies the biggest problem with Canadian aviation in terms of pilots pay. Supposedly the highest paying company is also one of the lowest paying! There is no justification for 4 long years of flat pay.
Call it what it is; purely a training bond, it's as simple as that.
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Hangry
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by Hangry »

imjustlurking wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:40 pm
Babar350 wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:33 pm And again, Encore pilots will get screwed and will only be able to flow to swoop/sunwing which will make the career progression even longer with a C-scale.
I’m wondering how many will join AC in the coming years…
I can't afford to go to AC and make second year Encore FO rates. Seriously, what the funk is up with that?
:lol: Much better to stay at Encore and collect those riches.
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imjustlurking
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by imjustlurking »

Hangry wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:22 am
imjustlurking wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:40 pm
Babar350 wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:33 pm And again, Encore pilots will get screwed and will only be able to flow to swoop/sunwing which will make the career progression even longer with a C-scale.
I’m wondering how many will join AC in the coming years…
I can't afford to go to AC and make second year Encore FO rates. Seriously, what the funk is up with that?
:lol: Much better to stay at Encore and collect those riches.
Don't kid yourself... Encore pilots make more money than McDonalds fry cooks! They are treated better than Gulag prisoners, happier than Paramore fans, and don't have to worry about deicing more than six times in a day...
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Latitude
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by Latitude »

Loon-A-Tic wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:25 am
cloak wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:10 am And there lies the biggest problem with Canadian aviation in terms of pilots pay. Supposedly the highest paying company is also one of the lowest paying! There is no justification for 4 long years of flat pay.
Call it what it is; purely a training bond, it's as simple as that.
Makes no sense. You don't pay a training bond unless you leave. If you earn low wages for 4 years, it's more like they make you pay your training, sort of.
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

Latitude wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:42 pm
Loon-A-Tic wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:25 am
cloak wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:10 am And there lies the biggest problem with Canadian aviation in terms of pilots pay. Supposedly the highest paying company is also one of the lowest paying! There is no justification for 4 long years of flat pay.
Call it what it is; purely a training bond, it's as simple as that.
Makes no sense. You don't pay a training bond unless you leave. If you earn low wages for 4 years, it's more like they make you pay your training, sort of.
Not completely true, you only pay the bond IF you leave early. Otherwise is reduced over the term of the bond, however long that my be. So in the case of BIG RED the term of the bond is 4 years.
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cloak
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by cloak »

The 4 year long flat pay at Air Canada is anything but a training bond. And there is no justification for it.

A training bond is an agreement between a pilot and a company to exchange training for loyalty. It needs to be paid in case the pilot leaves the said company before the expiry of the time period. If the pilot continues to work there, he or she will receive fair compensation with no financial burden.

The Air Canada 4 year flat pay on the other hand, does put financial burden on the pilot while he or she IS working at Air Canada. The burden is in spite of loyalty of the pilot. It also erodes the potential of piloting profession in Canada in general.
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by Latitude »

Loon-A-Tic wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:25 am
Latitude wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:42 pm
Loon-A-Tic wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:25 am

Call it what it is; purely a training bond, it's as simple as that.
Makes no sense. You don't pay a training bond unless you leave. If you earn low wages for 4 years, it's more like they make you pay your training, sort of.
Not completely true, you only pay the bond IF you leave early. Otherwise is reduced over the term of the bond, however long that my be. So in the case of BIG RED the term of the bond is 4 years.
If they pay you less, it's a pay-your-training type of thing. Nothing to do with a training bond which doesnt impact your pay or other in any way unless you leave the company.
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by digits_ »

cloak wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:48 am The 4 year long flat pay at Air Canada is anything but a training bond. And there is no justification for it.
[...]
The Air Canada 4 year flat pay on the other hand, does put financial burden on the pilot while he or she IS working at Air Canada. The burden is in spite of loyalty of the pilot. It also erodes the potential of piloting profession in Canada in general.
So we should all join AC for the free typerating and to have fun flying the big planes for a month, and then leave? :twisted:
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by Hangry »

cloak wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:48 am The 4 year long flat pay at Air Canada is anything but a training bond. And there is no justification for it.

A training bond is an agreement between a pilot and a company to exchange training for loyalty. It needs to be paid in case the pilot leaves the said company before the expiry of the time period. If the pilot continues to work there, he or she will receive fair compensation with no financial burden.

The Air Canada 4 year flat pay on the other hand, does put financial burden on the pilot while he or she IS working at Air Canada. The burden is in spite of loyalty of the pilot. It also erodes the potential of piloting profession in Canada in general.
But WJ paying a Swoop skipper less than 100 grand a year is helping Canadian aviation. :lol:
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by elite »

If that’s what they pay them, not it doesn’t. And neither is the 4 year long flat pay at the flag carrier. Plus it used to be 2 years which was increased in the last contract. Plus one doesn’t justify the other. And yes it is NOT the equivalent of the training bond.
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by cloak »

Hangry wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:04 am
cloak wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:48 am The 4 year long flat pay at Air Canada is anything but a training bond. And there is no justification for it.

A training bond is an agreement between a pilot and a company to exchange training for loyalty. It needs to be paid in case the pilot leaves the said company before the expiry of the time period. If the pilot continues to work there, he or she will receive fair compensation with no financial burden.

The Air Canada 4 year flat pay on the other hand, does put financial burden on the pilot while he or she IS working at Air Canada. The burden is in spite of loyalty of the pilot. It also erodes the potential of piloting profession in Canada in general.
But WJ paying a Swoop skipper less than 100 grand a year is helping Canadian aviation. :lol:
I appreciate you trying to make a point by this comparison, however it is not the same.

Notwithstanding the fact that it is actually over 120, and in addition to what's already been said, there is a big difference:

The Swoop conditions were forced by arbitration, whereas the Air Canada 4 long years of flat pay were negotiated and ratified by its pilots!!

One lesson that hopefully has been learnt is that an "all or nothing" approach sometimes does land one closer to nothing! It is better to negotiate.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by ALPApolicy »

cloak wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:24 pm...One lesson that hopefully has been learnt is that an "all or nothing" approach sometimes does land one closer to nothing! It is better to negotiate.
I wonder if that applies to seniority list mergers?
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cloak
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Re: Onex buying Sunwing ?

Post by cloak »

ALPApolicy wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:06 pm
cloak wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:24 pm...One lesson that hopefully has been learnt is that an "all or nothing" approach sometimes does land one closer to nothing! It is better to negotiate.
I wonder if that applies to seniority list mergers?
Absolutely, a negotiated settlement, even in parts, would be better because it has known elements on which members can vote.

For instance Encore MEC has been very good in negotiating and even getting others to negotiate for them, be it in the one sided PTA1, be it pandemic era lay-off top up pay for Encore pilots only, they have represented their members well. They can and should continue to do that for a new PTA or whatever else they can. That is fine.

It is time that WS/WO MEC also negotiates for its own members, to do them no harm and represent all of them. That’s all.
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