Sunwing/Westjet

[cloak]

Hopefully we pilots in the WSW/WJA bargaining unit will have access to the PSL by next week. I hope.

People's lives have been messed with. I don't yet know if no one realized this and it was an honest mistake or it was confusing and misleading on purpose. A lot of people thought they had higher seniority than they actually did. And a lot of pilots were denied things they could have held.

Hard to say what the scale of the problem is because we can't tell who flowed to WSW/WJA and who was OTS,because we only have the PTA generated "Seniority List".

Have you had formal communications from the MEC regarding this, or is it your perception? It doesn’t seem like this is what is being done. Seniority list for the bargaining unit was available until recently. I’m sure many people have saved copies. It can be generated using the PTA list and separating the ones at the bargaining unit, plus HR has DOH and YOS for everyone.

[ALPApolicy]

Hopefully we pilots in the WSW/WJA bargaining unit will have access to the PSL by next week. I hope.

People's lives have been messed with. I don't yet know if no one realized this and it was an honest mistake or it was confusing and misleading on purpose. A lot of people thought they had higher seniority than they actually did. And a lot of pilots were denied things they could have held.

Hard to say what the scale of the problem is because we can't tell who flowed to WSW/WJA and who was OTS,because we only have the PTA generated "Seniority List".

Have you had formal communications from the MEC regarding this, or is it your perception? It doesn’t seem like this is what is being done. Seniority list for the bargaining unit was available until recently. I’m sure many people have saved copies. It can be generated using the PTA list and separating the ones at the bargaining unit, plus HR has DOH and YOS for everyone.

I copied the MEC Chair and my LEC Chair on my request to the Company for a copy of the PSL. The Membership Committee responded that they supply the list that is located on the EFB. I am not looking for that list.

The list on the EFB (and its derivatives) is a transfer protocol list generated by the PTA. Although it is labelled as "Seniority List" in the PTA, it is not. Its sole purpose, as stated by the PTA is for use when pilots transfers between companies.

The EFB in no way alters seniority provisions of the CBA. Seniority is still determined with reference to the PSL/WPSL, which is maintained by the Company, not the Association, and updated 4 times a year, and made available on the EFB.

When Encore pilots flow to WestJet or Swoop, they are placed at the bottom of the WSW/WJA PSL/WPSL, i.e. the seniority list.

It is likely that pilots have been awarded positions they could not legally hold, and pilots have been forced into holding reserve (or laid off) or commuting when they should not have been.

[ALPApolicy]

cloak, when you say

It can be generated using the PTA list and separating the ones at the bargaining unit, plus HR has DOH and YOS for everyone.

This is incorrect. Encore pilots are placed on the bottom of the PSL/WPSL when they are hired at WestJet or Swoop and placed by WSW/WJA date of hire. Their position on the PTA generated quote seniority list unquote is by Encore date of hire.

[Vanguard]

Since Vanguard has chosen to attack me personally and avoided adding any well thought out counterpoints to my arguments, I shall update the aviation community on my current belief on how things stand.

I will not be shrinking in embarrassment, but some people will.

I take no joy in what follows.

I started off my last leg today, YYZ to YYC believing I would be filing a Breach of Contract action against ALPA in BC Supreme Court in the next few days. As long time readers of this space will be aware, ALPA was constitutionally required to use "whatever means at its command" in order to achieve a DOH seniority list at WestJet. In the WSW/WJA CBA, they did not do that.

I believe a DFR challenge in front of the CIRB could have been brought within 90 days of finding out the state of the seniority list, and I believe it had a fair chance of success. But no affected OTS pilot did so. It wasn't my battle to fight so I let it go.

In addition to the DFR challenge, I believe a Breach of Contract action in civil court had a chance of success. But the two year limitation period on that action expired around December 2020. It wasn't my fight so I let it go. I had educated pilots publicly on what I believed to be the truth.

With the PTA signing in Dec 12, 2019, once again I believed ALPA had violated the Constitution and a DFR claim with its 90 day window was again activated with no action on the part of affected OTS pilots. I let it go.

The two year limitation period for another Breach of Contract claim closed on December 12, 2021. At least I then believed so.

I had put this issue behind me. No one had bargained away my seniority rights. Then the Sunwing purchase was announced. After reviewing seniority list merger procedures once again, and once again dispelling the myth of common employer between Encore and WestJet, I realized we had a problem with our list. Well, I always knew that.

After spending the last few weeks looking at our chances in a seniority list integration, I believed ALPA's actions with regard to seniority list construction was going to hurt us.

Yesterday I discovered that British Columbia had paused all running limitation periods for one calendar year due to COVID-19. Once again, the window was open to sue ALPA for the Breach due their negotiation of the PTA with its super-seniority provisions to Encore pilots flowing since December 12, 2019.

I believed I had standing to file as a member of the bargaining unit to sue ALPA seeking the remedies of damages to OTS pilots denied legitimate bidding awards. I would seek specific performance in the cancellation of the PTA on the basis it was in contravention of the Constitution. I would seek general financial damages due to the harm inflicted on our bargaining unit in the form of our damaged position in upcoming seniority list merger talks.

Those are the things I would have sought, and enlisted the aid of OTS pilots harmed by ALPA's malfeasance.

For everyone reading any of this garbage rhetoric. It's not about attacking you personally John. For those of you who don't know John personally, he is known to have these tangents. I won't deny he is a sharp mind but a mind that does not direct itself to help the pilot groups in any meaningful way and never really has. The possibility of merger excites him so he is set to try and create chaos within the system.

Does it not make you wonder why one "senior" (2003 DOH?) pilot goes well out of his way to try create chaos in his airline enticing OTS pilots against Encore pilots with hope on something that has been dealt with in the past. You have to ask him why he is so vested in all of this -- many pilots have asked the question but never gotten a straight answer. For those of us know him understand his need in creating chaos and amusing himself for his own benefits or maybe the many he friends he has at SWG. This isn't an attack - it is but the truth.

The one list or "PTA" post vote #2 with cash incentive has always been extremely unfair to pilots recently hired directly at WestJet and extremely rewarding to pilots who flow from Encore. Worse now with the new reserve system and talk of seniority bidding. I hope the Sunwing pilots don't accept the unfair system we've created and a fair solution for Encore pilots can be had without punishing OTS hires. Ex Encore pilots YOS pay carries over but DOH at WestJet for bidding and upgrades. Nobody is punished by pilots parachuting over them while they sit on reserve for years and the Encore pilots are still rewarded for their time at Encore

What makes you so entitled to think you should go ahead of an Encore pilot who gave years to the company working 18-20 days and you got hired years later? It’s not a punishment. It was something you agreed to. If you’re so unhappy, AC just opened their applications.

There was no reserve. Encore pilots have seniority for base bidding, vacation and upgrades in a socialized bidding system is what was "agreed to". The reality is if you are hired at WestJet now you are looking at years of reserve while you wait for Encore pilots to flow in above you. That is punishing to anyone hired directly at WestJet. Hope this mess sorts itself out for before the Sunwing pilots arrive. Also, if you are working 20 days a month at Encore that is by your own doing.

You are correct and also incorrect. When pilots flow from Encore to WestJet they are actually reserve eligible. If you remember prior to the Pandemic, any flow through pilot even though might have been senior to an OTS pilot would be reserve eligible. No junior OTS pilot was forced on reserve because an Encore pilot took flow.

I agree the Pandemic changes things and everyone including senior WJ who would have never been reserve eligible held reserve. If you are so unhappy with the way things are I would honestly suggest looking at AC as an option. If you think our reserve system is shitty, time to go check out and learn for yourself that grass is not greener on the other side. Welcome to aviation. You can't just throw entitlement and ask encore pilots to take back of the bus just because you now don't like how the game played out.

[ALPApolicy]

Since Vanguard has chosen to attack me personally and avoided adding any well thought out counterpoints to my arguments, I shall update the aviation community on my current belief on how things stand.

I will not be shrinking in embarrassment, but some people will.

I take no joy in what follows.

I started off my last leg today, YYZ to YYC believing I would be filing a Breach of Contract action against ALPA in BC Supreme Court in the next few days. As long time readers of this space will be aware, ALPA was constitutionally required to use "whatever means at its command" in order to achieve a DOH seniority list at WestJet. In the WSW/WJA CBA, they did not do that.

I believe a DFR challenge in front of the CIRB could have been brought within 90 days of finding out the state of the seniority list, and I believe it had a fair chance of success. But no affected OTS pilot did so. It wasn't my battle to fight so I let it go.

In addition to the DFR challenge, I believe a Breach of Contract action in civil court had a chance of success. But the two year limitation period on that action expired around December 2020. It wasn't my fight so I let it go. I had educated pilots publicly on what I believed to be the truth.

With the PTA signing in Dec 12, 2019, once again I believed ALPA had violated the Constitution and a DFR claim with its 90 day window was again activated with no action on the part of affected OTS pilots. I let it go.

The two year limitation period for another Breach of Contract claim closed on December 12, 2021. At least I then believed so.

I had put this issue behind me. No one had bargained away my seniority rights. Then the Sunwing purchase was announced. After reviewing seniority list merger procedures once again, and once again dispelling the myth of common employer between Encore and WestJet, I realized we had a problem with our list. Well, I always knew that.

After spending the last few weeks looking at our chances in a seniority list integration, I believed ALPA's actions with regard to seniority list construction was going to hurt us.

Yesterday I discovered that British Columbia had paused all running limitation periods for one calendar year due to COVID-19. Once again, the window was open to sue ALPA for the Breach due their negotiation of the PTA with its super-seniority provisions to Encore pilots flowing since December 12, 2019.

I believed I had standing to file as a member of the bargaining unit to sue ALPA seeking the remedies of damages to OTS pilots denied legitimate bidding awards. I would seek specific performance in the cancellation of the PTA on the basis it was in contravention of the Constitution. I would seek general financial damages due to the harm inflicted on our bargaining unit in the form of our damaged position in upcoming seniority list merger talks.

Those are the things I would have sought, and enlisted the aid of OTS pilots harmed by ALPA's malfeasance.

For everyone reading any of this garbage rhetoric. It's not about attacking you personally John. For those of you who don't know John personally, he is known to have these tangents. I won't deny he is a sharp mind but a mind that does not direct itself to help the pilot groups in any meaningful way and never really has. The possibility of merger excites him so he is set to try and create chaos within the system.

Does it not make you wonder why one "senior" (2003 DOH?) pilot goes well out of his way to try create chaos in his airline enticing OTS pilots against Encore pilots with hope on something that has been dealt with in the past. You have to ask him why he is so vested in all of this -- many pilots have asked the question but never gotten a straight answer. For those of us know him understand his need in creating chaos and amusing himself for his own benefits or maybe the many he friends he has at SWG. This isn't an attack - it is but the truth.

What makes you so entitled to think you should go ahead of an Encore pilot who gave years to the company working 18-20 days and you got hired years later? It’s not a punishment. It was something you agreed to. If you’re so unhappy, AC just opened their applications.

There was no reserve. Encore pilots have seniority for base bidding, vacation and upgrades in a socialized bidding system is what was "agreed to". The reality is if you are hired at WestJet now you are looking at years of reserve while you wait for Encore pilots to flow in above you. That is punishing to anyone hired directly at WestJet. Hope this mess sorts itself out for before the Sunwing pilots arrive. Also, if you are working 20 days a month at Encore that is by your own doing.

You are correct and also incorrect. When pilots flow from Encore to WestJet they are actually reserve eligible. If you remember prior to the Pandemic, any flow through pilot even though might have been senior to an OTS pilot would be reserve eligible. No junior OTS pilot was forced on reserve because an Encore pilot took flow.

I agree the Pandemic changes things and everyone including senior WJ who would have never been reserve eligible held reserve. If you are so unhappy with the way things are I would honestly suggest looking at AC as an option. If you think our reserve system is shitty, time to go check out and learn for yourself that grass is not greener on the other side. Welcome to aviation. You can't just throw entitlement and ask encore pilots to take back of the bus just because you now don't like how the game played out.

I take absolutely no offense at any of your words directed at me. I admit these are stressful and devastating results.

Can you just answer one question, Vanguard: if the PTA were cancelled today, on what list would a new hire WSW/WJA pilot be placed on tomorrow?

[Vanguard]

Since Vanguard has chosen to attack me personally and avoided adding any well thought out counterpoints to my arguments, I shall update the aviation community on my current belief on how things stand.

I will not be shrinking in embarrassment, but some people will.

I take no joy in what follows.

I started off my last leg today, YYZ to YYC believing I would be filing a Breach of Contract action against ALPA in BC Supreme Court in the next few days. As long time readers of this space will be aware, ALPA was constitutionally required to use "whatever means at its command" in order to achieve a DOH seniority list at WestJet. In the WSW/WJA CBA, they did not do that.

I believe a DFR challenge in front of the CIRB could have been brought within 90 days of finding out the state of the seniority list, and I believe it had a fair chance of success. But no affected OTS pilot did so. It wasn't my battle to fight so I let it go.

In addition to the DFR challenge, I believe a Breach of Contract action in civil court had a chance of success. But the two year limitation period on that action expired around December 2020. It wasn't my fight so I let it go. I had educated pilots publicly on what I believed to be the truth.

With the PTA signing in Dec 12, 2019, once again I believed ALPA had violated the Constitution and a DFR claim with its 90 day window was again activated with no action on the part of affected OTS pilots. I let it go.

The two year limitation period for another Breach of Contract claim closed on December 12, 2021. At least I then believed so.

I had put this issue behind me. No one had bargained away my seniority rights. Then the Sunwing purchase was announced. After reviewing seniority list merger procedures once again, and once again dispelling the myth of common employer between Encore and WestJet, I realized we had a problem with our list. Well, I always knew that.

After spending the last few weeks looking at our chances in a seniority list integration, I believed ALPA's actions with regard to seniority list construction was going to hurt us.

Yesterday I discovered that British Columbia had paused all running limitation periods for one calendar year due to COVID-19. Once again, the window was open to sue ALPA for the Breach due their negotiation of the PTA with its super-seniority provisions to Encore pilots flowing since December 12, 2019.

I believed I had standing to file as a member of the bargaining unit to sue ALPA seeking the remedies of damages to OTS pilots denied legitimate bidding awards. I would seek specific performance in the cancellation of the PTA on the basis it was in contravention of the Constitution. I would seek general financial damages due to the harm inflicted on our bargaining unit in the form of our damaged position in upcoming seniority list merger talks.

Those are the things I would have sought, and enlisted the aid of OTS pilots harmed by ALPA's malfeasance.

For everyone reading any of this garbage rhetoric. It's not about attacking you personally John. For those of you who don't know John personally, he is known to have these tangents. I won't deny he is a sharp mind but a mind that does not direct itself to help the pilot groups in any meaningful way and never really has. The possibility of merger excites him so he is set to try and create chaos within the system.

Does it not make you wonder why one "senior" (2003 DOH?) pilot goes well out of his way to try create chaos in his airline enticing OTS pilots against Encore pilots with hope on something that has been dealt with in the past. You have to ask him why he is so vested in all of this -- many pilots have asked the question but never gotten a straight answer. For those of us know him understand his need in creating chaos and amusing himself for his own benefits or maybe the many he friends he has at SWG. This isn't an attack - it is but the truth.

There was no reserve. Encore pilots have seniority for base bidding, vacation and upgrades in a socialized bidding system is what was "agreed to". The reality is if you are hired at WestJet now you are looking at years of reserve while you wait for Encore pilots to flow in above you. That is punishing to anyone hired directly at WestJet. Hope this mess sorts itself out for before the Sunwing pilots arrive. Also, if you are working 20 days a month at Encore that is by your own doing.

You are correct and also incorrect. When pilots flow from Encore to WestJet they are actually reserve eligible. If you remember prior to the Pandemic, any flow through pilot even though might have been senior to an OTS pilot would be reserve eligible. No junior OTS pilot was forced on reserve because an Encore pilot took flow.

I agree the Pandemic changes things and everyone including senior WJ who would have never been reserve eligible held reserve. If you are so unhappy with the way things are I would honestly suggest looking at AC as an option. If you think our reserve system is shitty, time to go check out and learn for yourself that grass is not greener on the other side. Welcome to aviation. You can't just throw entitlement and ask encore pilots to take back of the bus just because you now don't like how the game played out.

I take absolutely no offense at any of your words directed at me. I admit these are stressful and devastating results.

Can you just answer one question, Vanguard: if the PTA were cancelled today, on what list would a new hire WSW/WJA pilot be placed on tomorrow?

These are not stressful times and devastating times. They do seem that way for you John Swallow. Clearly you have no other hobbies. I feel for you my friend. You have my sympathies.

But I will indulge: If the PTA gets cancelled today -- It would grandfather all pilots on property currently on our PSL including the Encore Pilots waiting to flow. They're numbers would be considered frozen until they make it to the other side.

Future hires would not be added to this list other than continuing WJA/WSW hires.

Encore would have to maintain their own PSL and/or PSL2 for pilots who were not there for the PTA going forward.


My advise/msg to SWG pilots. It would be in the best interest for all our parties to work together to come up with a proper method of merging our lists if that is what time brings us. Do not listen to all these false claims. John Swallow does not represent our pilot group nor does he or has he ever showed good intent. He is serving his own amusement pitting pilots against each other. The issue that he is so tuned to bring forward has no merit yet -- JS has the right to pursue it of course but we would all love to know the real intent of his dedication.

[ALPApolicy]

For everyone reading any of this garbage rhetoric. It's not about attacking you personally John. For those of you who don't know John personally, he is known to have these tangents. I won't deny he is a sharp mind but a mind that does not direct itself to help the pilot groups in any meaningful way and never really has. The possibility of merger excites him so he is set to try and create chaos within the system.

Does it not make you wonder why one "senior" (2003 DOH?) pilot goes well out of his way to try create chaos in his airline enticing OTS pilots against Encore pilots with hope on something that has been dealt with in the past. You have to ask him why he is so vested in all of this -- many pilots have asked the question but never gotten a straight answer. For those of us know him understand his need in creating chaos and amusing himself for his own benefits or maybe the many he friends he has at SWG. This isn't an attack - it is but the truth.

You are correct and also incorrect. When pilots flow from Encore to WestJet they are actually reserve eligible. If you remember prior to the Pandemic, any flow through pilot even though might have been senior to an OTS pilot would be reserve eligible. No junior OTS pilot was forced on reserve because an Encore pilot took flow.

I agree the Pandemic changes things and everyone including senior WJ who would have never been reserve eligible held reserve. If you are so unhappy with the way things are I would honestly suggest looking at AC as an option. If you think our reserve system is shitty, time to go check out and learn for yourself that grass is not greener on the other side. Welcome to aviation. You can't just throw entitlement and ask encore pilots to take back of the bus just because you now don't like how the game played out.

I take absolutely no offense at any of your words directed at me. I admit these are stressful and devastating results.

Can you just answer one question, Vanguard: if the PTA were cancelled today, on what list would a new hire WSW/WJA pilot be placed on tomorrow?

These are not stressful times and devastating times. They do seem that way for you John Swallow. Clearly you have no other hobbies. I feel for you my friend. You have my sympathies.

But I will indulge: If the PTA gets cancelled today -- It would grandfather all pilots on property currently on our PSL including the Encore Pilots waiting to flow. They're numbers would be considered frozen until they make it to the other side.

Future hires would not be added to this list other than continuing WJA/WSW hires.

Encore would have to maintain their own PSL and/or PSL2 for pilots who were not there for the PTA going forward.

My advise/msg to SWG pilots. It would be in the best interest for all our parties to work together to come up with a proper method of merging our lists if that is what time brings us. Do not listen to all these false claims. John Swallow does not represent our pilot group nor does he or has he ever showed good intent. He is serving his own amusement pitting pilots against each other. The issue that he is so tuned to bring forward has no merit yet -- JS has the right to pursue it of course but we would all love to know the real intent of his dedication.

Can I ask what happened to the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit seniority list created by section 3 of the WSW/WJA CBA? It's the same language used in Section 28 of the WEN CBA that created the WEN PSL.

Those two, separate seniority lists are still in operation and act alongside the PTA generated transfer list. This transfer list had as its sole function the facilitation of pilot movement between the WestJet group of companies.

When my grievance is complete and I have a copy of the PSL/WPSL in my hands, I will share it with you. Then you can see how pilots are placed on it when they are hired at WSW/WJA.

I mean you and your colleagues and my colleagues no harm. There is simply something in my makeup that makes me like a rabid dog with a hold of a legand I won't let this issue go until I have a copy of my bargaining unit's seniority list in my hands. I simply can't work under a ruse, a facade, a masquerade. No matter the cost, we all deserve to work under the truth. To allow this hoax to continue will only make things worse.

Johnny

The Rabid Dog

[ALPApolicy]

PS, you never answered the question: which list would new hires at WSW/WJA be added to if the PTA were cancelled?

[elite]

My advise/msg to SWG pilots. It would be in the best interest for all our parties to work together to come up with a proper method of merging our lists if that is what time brings us. Do not listen to all these false claims. John Swallow does not represent our pilot group nor does he or has he ever showed good intent….

Wow, that’s quite the presumption, but since you seem to portray yourself be the vanguard of WestJet pilots, here is a question for you. Sunwing pilots may be merging with WestJet/Swoop, but why would they want to merge their list with pilots of another airline that fly a different type of aircraft and have a separate bargaining unit?

[ALPApolicy]

Vanguard, I am not trying to beat you up, but eventually you will have no choice but to admit to yourself the true state of affairs.

When I ask a simple question like, "What happened to the seniority list for the bargaining unit that WestJet is supposed to maintain and publish 4 times a year?", you ignore it or provide some confusing bafflegab.

Seniority is a simple yet crucial concept. The "Seniority" section in the PTA is very short. All it says is:
.
.

2.01 A combined seniority list, known as the “Seniority List,” shall be created through the process provided for in Section 10, below. Once created, the Seniority List shall be used for transfers between Swoop and WestJet, and between Encore and Swoop or WestJet.

2.02 Once this LOA becomes effective, any Pilot who is hired at WestJet, Swoop, or Encore shall be assigned a seniority number based on date of hire at the respective airline

.
.

What the above says is:

We're making a list to be used for transfers between companies and were giving each pilot a number on that list.

That's all it says.

Period.

That is all the PTA says about seniority in the seniority section! From that you want me to believe that when Encore pilots are hired at WestJet they are placed on the WSW/WJA seniority list somewhere else other than the bottom. Where do you read that?

In the recent (Dec 10, 2021) arbitration over the WJ pilot on lay-off and hired at Encore, ALPA's lawyer (Marc Delorme) said this:
.
.

Mr Delorme submitted that it makes no difference to the Association's case how WestJet handled its requirement to maintain and update seniority, required to be posted electronically on the WestJet intranet quarterly as per Section 3-1 of the Collective Agreement.

.
.

ALPA's own lawyer referenced the Seniority section of the CBA and does not mention at any time that it was modified by the PTA. Here is Section 3-1 that Mr Delorme is referring to:
.
.

3-1. PILOT SENIORITY LIST

3-1.01. The Company shall maintain an updated Pilot Seniority List (PSL). The PSL shall be published
quarterly (Jan 1, Apr 1, Jul 1, Oct 1) with a copy to the Association. The PSL shall be posted electronically
on the Company intranet and shall remain there until replaced by an updated PSL. The PSL will also be
made available on the EFB.

3-1.02. Only Pilots whose names appear on the PSL are authorized to operate aircraft used by the Company in its flight operations, except as otherwise provided for in this Agreement.

3-1.03. The PSL shall show the Seniority of each Pilot by name, Rank, Permanent Base, Equipment, Status, and date of hire (DOH) of all Pilots employed by the Company.

3-1.04. Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, Seniority shall begin to accrue from a Pilot’s DOH as a Pilot with the Company and shall continue to accrue during such period of service.

.
.
ALPA's lawyer never mentioned this section being changed in any way Vanguard, but you want us to believe that either this seniority list doesn't exist anymore, or is modified and puts new hires from somewhere besides the bottom of the list. Why do you believe that?

What does the PTA say is supposed to be on its list? A name, and a number. Period. And you want me to believe that a seniority list will have just a name and a number?

If you are going to alter the legal seniority rights of the Pilots in the WSW/WJA bargaining unit, it can't be done in a willy nilly way. It must be precise. As ALPA's lawyer, Mr Delorme said:
.
.

...given the significance of seniority to the worker, namely that they should only be effected by very clear language, and that "arbitrators should construe the collective agreement with the utmost strictness wherever it is contended that an employee's seniority has been forfeited, truncated or abridged under the relevant sections of the collective agreement".

.
.
Vanguard, you seem to disagree with ALPA's lawyer. It is your opinion that seniority rights of pilots in another bargaining unit can be "forfeited, truncated, or abridged" by a couple of lines in a transfer agreement and a $10,000 bribe.

I disagree. And I am going to fight for those too afraid to speak up for fear of ostracism by their peers. Rightfully so, I might add.

#FakeSeniorityList

[seriousflyer]

Alot of misinformation being posted here. Reader beware. This individual is known to be irrelevant and not involved in any professional union operations.

[ALPApolicy]

Alot of misinformation being posted here. Reader beware. This individual is known to be irrelevant and not involved in any professional union operations.

I understand that you would rather attack me than address even one argument I have made as you flowed to WestJet around the beginning of 2019.

Although it is an uncomfortable situation to deal with, I am not making the situation happen; I am simply revealing it.

[Vanguard]

My advise/msg to SWG pilots. It would be in the best interest for all our parties to work together to come up with a proper method of merging our lists if that is what time brings us. Do not listen to all these false claims. John Swallow does not represent our pilot group nor does he or has he ever showed good intent….

Wow, that’s quite the presumption, but since you seem to portray yourself be the vanguard of WestJet pilots, here is a question for you. Sunwing pilots may be merging with WestJet/Swoop, but why would they want to merge their list with pilots of another airline that fly a different type of aircraft and have a separate bargaining unit?

Relax mate. I never said I was the Vanguard of the WJ pilots. Obviously I can't reveal who I am for obvious reason.

Honestly, if you're gonna show attitude...lets be quite clear. SWG got bought by WJ. Not the other way around. Obviously if there is to be a merger we would want to see it done properly and fairly. You guys and gals just recently signed a 10% discount on WAWCON so to come in with that attitude isn't the nicest thing. You're getting a major pay raise & job security. 20% ESP to your 7% after 7 years. You're bringing us some business but we are a network. You may also get to fly some nice new aircraft in your career ahead. Lets all play nice.

As far as Encore goes. We do understand with SWG merger it could get complex. The PTA may have to go however keep in mind while the PTA is active and lets say SWG merges. You would also have access to a position on the Dash8 if there was ever another downturn. It's easy to look at things from one angle, know that you would have to do more research. The sentiment of our group doesn't get represented by ALPAPolicy aka J. Swallow. Thats all I want people here to understand. This will eventually fizzle out as lots of noise.

[Vanguard]

Vanguard, I am not trying to beat you up, but eventually you will have no choice but to admit to yourself the true state of affairs.

When I ask a simple question like, "What happened to the seniority list for the bargaining unit that WestJet is supposed to maintain and publish 4 times a year?", you ignore it or provide some confusing bafflegab.

Seniority is a simple yet crucial concept. The "Seniority" section in the PTA is very short. All it says is:
.
.

2.01 A combined seniority list, known as the “Seniority List,” shall be created through the process provided for in Section 10, below. Once created, the Seniority List shall be used for transfers between Swoop and WestJet, and between Encore and Swoop or WestJet.

2.02 Once this LOA becomes effective, any Pilot who is hired at WestJet, Swoop, or Encore shall be assigned a seniority number based on date of hire at the respective airline

.
.

What the above says is:

We're making a list to be used for transfers between companies and were giving each pilot a number on that list.

That's all it says.

Period.

That is all the PTA says about seniority in the seniority section! From that you want me to believe that when Encore pilots are hired at WestJet they are placed on the WSW/WJA seniority list somewhere else other than the bottom. Where do you read that?

In the recent (Dec 10, 2021) arbitration over the WJ pilot on lay-off and hired at Encore, ALPA's lawyer (Marc Delorme) said this:
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Mr Delorme submitted that it makes no difference to the Association's case how WestJet handled its requirement to maintain and update seniority, required to be posted electronically on the WestJet intranet quarterly as per Section 3-1 of the Collective Agreement.

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ALPA's own lawyer referenced the Seniority section of the CBA and does not mention at any time that it was modified by the PTA. Here is Section 3-1 that Mr Delorme is referring to:
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3-1. PILOT SENIORITY LIST

3-1.01. The Company shall maintain an updated Pilot Seniority List (PSL). The PSL shall be published
quarterly (Jan 1, Apr 1, Jul 1, Oct 1) with a copy to the Association. The PSL shall be posted electronically
on the Company intranet and shall remain there until replaced by an updated PSL. The PSL will also be
made available on the EFB.

3-1.02. Only Pilots whose names appear on the PSL are authorized to operate aircraft used by the Company in its flight operations, except as otherwise provided for in this Agreement.

3-1.03. The PSL shall show the Seniority of each Pilot by name, Rank, Permanent Base, Equipment, Status, and date of hire (DOH) of all Pilots employed by the Company.

3-1.04. Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, Seniority shall begin to accrue from a Pilot’s DOH as a Pilot with the Company and shall continue to accrue during such period of service.

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ALPA's lawyer never mentioned this section being changed in any way Vanguard, but you want us to believe that either this seniority list doesn't exist anymore, or is modified and puts new hires from somewhere besides the bottom of the list. Why do you believe that?

What does the PTA say is supposed to be on its list? A name, and a number. Period. And you want me to believe that a seniority list will have just a name and a number?

If you are going to alter the legal seniority rights of the Pilots in the WSW/WJA bargaining unit, it can't be done in a willy nilly way. It must be precise. As ALPA's lawyer, Mr Delorme said:
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...given the significance of seniority to the worker, namely that they should only be effected by very clear language, and that "arbitrators should construe the collective agreement with the utmost strictness wherever it is contended that an employee's seniority has been forfeited, truncated or abridged under the relevant sections of the collective agreement".

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Vanguard, you seem to disagree with ALPA's lawyer. It is your opinion that seniority rights of pilots in another bargaining unit can be "forfeited, truncated, or abridged" by a couple of lines in a transfer agreement and a $10,000 bribe.

I disagree. And I am going to fight for those too afraid to speak up for fear of ostracism by their peers. Rightfully so, I might add.

#FakeSeniorityList

John, I have said what I needed to say. As many will notice on other avenues of your rhetoric that all of this noise is noise. I am alright with you pursuing it, would never ask anyone to stop however when the time comes and you are wrong. I hope you are ready to admit your mistake and take ownership. Good luck!

[ALPApolicy]

Vanguard, that is a fair statement.

Thank you,

John

[elite]

Relax mate. I never said I was the Vanguard of the WJ pilots. Obviously I can't reveal who I am for obvious reason.

Honestly, if you're gonna show attitude...lets be quite clear. SWG got bought by WJ. Not the other way around. Obviously if there is to be a merger we would want to see it done properly and fairly. You guys and gals just recently signed a 10% discount on WAWCON so to come in with that attitude isn't the nicest thing. You're getting a major pay raise & job security. 20% ESP to your 7% after 7 years. You're bringing us some business but we are a network. You may also get to fly some nice new aircraft in your career ahead. Lets all play nice.

As far as Encore goes. We do understand with SWG merger it could get complex. The PTA may have to go however keep in mind while the PTA is active and lets say SWG merges. You would also have access to a position on the Dash8 if there was ever another downturn. It's easy to look at things from one angle, know that you would have to do more research. The sentiment of our group doesn't get represented by ALPAPolicy aka J. Swallow. Thats all I want people here to understand. This will eventually fizzle out as lots of noise.

Way too much assumption on your part! And whether you are an Encore pilot who directly benefits from this or a union guy that concocted this whole thing, it matters not. Just as it matters not who is the buyer and who is seller in a merger once common employer is declared. It will be decided by the forces of the industry and no one can stop it. And no one at Sunwing cares about Dash8 seats as you say, especially the poor contract that comes with it, because of the PTA! Ironic!

Because it benefits most folks in WestJet, there should be a bias towards merging the lists based on DOH and also because it results in most natural “fences” and most protection for everyone to maintain status, pay and in most cases base.

To merge based on DOH, WestJet MEC will have to present a list that is based on DOH which means a pilot who is on 2nd year pay could only have 2 years seniority, not a few more from a previous company. So unless WestJet agrees to common employer status with Encore, which has virtually zero chance based on reasons mentioned before, its pilots will have to be removed from the list and the remaining rearranged based on DOH at WestJet/Swoop. That is the only way WestJet can advocate for DOH which would be to the benefit of its pilot group. To not advocate for it, means WestJet MEC is more concerned about protecting Encore than its own due-paying pilots!

With that, and a freeze for everyone where they are until their seniority catches up with them, merge the lists based on DOH, combine Sunwing with Swoop, that way very few, if any, fences are required as there will be natural freeze at Swoop and the senior folks get to keep their coveted 787 spots based on higher seniority and no one can complain about being worse off.

If WestJet MEC does not do that, they still cannot force Sunwing pilots to merge with pilots of another airline that is a separate employer and separate bargaining unit, but also will not be able to advocate for a DOH, ALPA preferred method of mergers. Then they end up in a messy ratio based merger with all different kinds of DOH on the seniority which are not in order, necessitating more arbitrary fences, Sunwing pilots contesting ALPA’s representation, and almost certainly going to arbitration. And let’s face it, WestJet pilots don’t do well in arbitration because they overestimate their position.

[rudder]

"………but also will not be able to advocate for a DOH, ALPA preferred method of mergers. Then they end up in a messy ratio based merger with all different kinds of DOH on the seniority which are not in order, necessitating more arbitrary fences, Sunwing pilots contesting ALPA’s representation, and almost certainly going to arbitration.

DOH is not the ALPA ‘preferred’ method of mergers (I presume you mean pilot seniority list integration).

Simply review the latest ALPA Merger Policy. DOH is not even referenced as a ‘factor’ to be considered in negotiating/arbitrating seniority list integration (although ‘longevity’ in included as a factor with no particular weight or priority assigned).

Any party is free to argue for a DOH solution. But there is no bias whatsoever in the ALPA Merger Policy towards DOH.

From a historical perspective, the only DOH based ISL’s flowed from consensual agreements. There are no arbitrated awards within the past two decades+ that were DOH.

[elite]

The reason there have not been many DOH mergers recently has been mainly because of huge disparities, for instance Canadian with its own many previous (messy) mergers and the fact that it was being rescued by a company that had been thriving and hiring in its last years as opposed to being stagnant and barely surviving multiple CCAAs. Otherwise, DOH makes most sense; after all, how can anyone expect to have seniority more than the years actually worked?!

[ALPApolicy]

Because only one bargaining unit is represented by ALPA, Section 45 of the ALPA Administration Manual (Merger) is of limited application. It still offers guidance to the WSW/WJA Merger Committee but most provisions are not mandatory. (I am resisting making a crack about ALPA following its own rules.)

[GoHomeLeg]

Keep it all separate. No seniority list merger. Do away with Swoop and absorb the pilots into Westjet and Encore.

Sunwing will do all the sun destination flying. There is no point in two carriers under the same company flying routes down south to the same places.

Onex bought Sunwing Vacation and Sunwing Airlines, not Westjet. You can fight me on that. : :