Sunwing/Westjet

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SPR
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by SPR »

The PTA LOU was added to the WestJet CBA. WestJet pilots voted on it, approved it, and had it added to the CBA as an amendment. Thus, it supercedes the original version of the document. The reason WestJet no longer publishes John's version of the PSL is because that section of the CBA was superceded by the PTA LOU.
Surely you've considered that the LOU is actually a part of the CBA, right? Surely you've realized what an LOU is, and how it relates to the rest of the CBA, right?
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imjustlurking
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by imjustlurking »

SPR wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:41 pm The PTA LOU was added to the WestJet CBA. WestJet pilots voted on it, approved it, and had it added to the CBA as an amendment. Thus, it supercedes the original version of the document. The reason WestJet no longer publishes John's version of the PSL is because that section of the CBA was superceded by the PTA LOU.
Surely you've considered that the LOU is actually a part of the CBA, right? Surely you've realized what an LOU is, and how it relates to the rest of the CBA, right?
As much as I appreciate John's drive to do what he believes is right, I keep remembering his post about how he thinks ALPA sucks because in the first ~15 years (out of 90), there was a racist policy that prevented people of colour from becoming a member. He says that he has volunteered for the merger committee, but it seems that the other members on the committee do not agree with him.

John has an opinion and is entitled to share it, just like the rest of us. The difference between him and the rest of us is that he will likely retire in the next ten years whereas the rest of us still have 20-40 years. With that said, his seniority number is high enough that there are zero Sunwing pilots who will slot in above him.

Edit: Let's compare Sunwing to WestJet for a moment:

Sunwing: 19 (non-temporary) 737s (12 -800, 7 -8MAX)
WestJet: 101 aircraft, 95 737s (43 -700, 38 -800, 14 -8MAX), 6 787-9

Sunwing: ~250 pilots
Westjet: ~1500 pilots

These WestJet numbers are not including the ~750 WO+WR pilots or the 10 737 + 47 Q400s.

I cannot fathom why someone who has flown Teal for nearly 20 years would want to take from the current Teal pilots and give to Orange.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

Part of the mystery has been solved. Who is responsible for maintaining the seniority list?

It depends on what you are referring to.

From the CBA:
-1. PILOT SENIORITY LIST

3-1.01. The Company shall maintain an updated Pilot Seniority List (PSL). The PSL shall be published quarterly (Jan 1, Apr 1, Jul 1, Oct 1) with a copy to the Association. The PSL shall be posted electronically on the Company intranet and shall remain there until replaced by an updated PSL. The PSL will also be made available on the EFB.
From the PTA:
10. CREATION AND ADMINISTRATION OF THE SENIORITY LIST

10.04 Once this process is complete, the Seniority List shall be shared with the airline managements (WestJet, Swoop, and Encore). Thereafter, an electronic copy of the
Seniority List, as amended, shall at a minimum be posted on the WestJet/Swoop and Encore MEC websites and made available on applicable airline EFBs.

10.05 The Association shall be responsible for maintaining the Seniority List in accordance with Section 2.02 of this LOA.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

imjustlurking wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:22 pm
SPR wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:41 pm The PTA LOU was added to the WestJet CBA. WestJet pilots voted on it, approved it, and had it added to the CBA as an amendment. Thus, it supercedes the original version of the document. The reason WestJet no longer publishes John's version of the PSL is because that section of the CBA was superceded by the PTA LOU.
Surely you've considered that the LOU is actually a part of the CBA, right? Surely you've realized what an LOU is, and how it relates to the rest of the CBA, right?
As much as I appreciate John's drive to do what he believes is right, I keep remembering his post about how he thinks ALPA sucks because in the first ~15 years (out of 90), there was a racist policy that prevented people of colour from becoming a member. He says that he has volunteered for the merger committee, but it seems that the other members on the committee do not agree with him.

John has an opinion and is entitled to share it, just like the rest of us. The difference between him and the rest of us is that he will likely retire in the next ten years whereas the rest of us still have 20-40 years. With that said, his seniority number is high enough that there are zero Sunwing pilots who will slot in above him.

Edit: Let's compare Sunwing to WestJet for a moment:

Sunwing: 19 (non-temporary) 737s (12 -800, 7 -8MAX)
WestJet: 101 aircraft, 95 737s (43 -700, 38 -800, 14 -8MAX), 6 787-9

Sunwing: ~250 pilots
Westjet: ~1500 pilots

These WestJet numbers are not including the ~750 WO+WR pilots or the 10 737 + 47 Q400s.

I cannot fathom why someone who has flown Teal for nearly 20 years would want to take from the current Teal pilots and give to Orange.
I don't have time to respond to this. A simple search of my Avcanada heritage, concentrating on my posts under various handles describing ALPA's duty in construction of seniority lists will easily dispel whatever it is you are accusing me of.

I am not for or against anyone. I want the truth.
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ALPApolicy
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The Hotel California Seniority List

Post by ALPApolicy »

"You can check-out any time you like, but you can never leave.

Question: How does one lose one's position in the PTA generated quote Seniority List unquote?

Answer: No one knows. Some speculate you can't leave.

From the PTA:
2.02 Once this LOA becomes effective, any Pilot who is hired at WestJet, Swoop, or Encore shall be assigned a seniority number based on date of hire at the respective airline.
Strangely, there is no provision for being removed from the transfer list masquerading as seniority list. Why is that?

A glance into either the WSW/WJA CBA or the WEN CBA shows why. From the WSW/WJA CBA:
3-5. LOSS OF SENIORITY STANDING

3-5.01. A Pilot shall lose their Seniority standing when:

a) They are dismissed, resign or retire;
b) They are laid off for more than one hundred twenty (120) consecutive months;
c) They refuse recall/bypass, in accordance with SECTION 20 - LAYOFF AND RECALL; or,
d) They neglect to answer a recall, in accordance with SECTION 20 - LAYOFF AND RECALL.
So the CBA addresses loss of seniority but the PTA does not. Perhaps this is because the PTA doesn't create a true seniority list.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

From the WSW/WJA CBA:
5. LENGTH OF SERVICE PAY

21-5.01. Effective January 1, 2020, a Pilot shall be paid based on their Length of Service as a Pilot with the Company.
This is one reason there are two apparent seniority lists. The one called the Pilot Seniority List (WPSL/PSL) is the one the Company maintains and has pilots ordered by their date of hire at Swoop or WestJet (for those hired after January 1, 2019). We do not have access at this time to this list but we are entitled to see it. It is issued four times a year.

Encore pilots who flow to WestJet are paid, like OTS pilots, based on their length of service with the Company (Swoop or WestJet) as indicated on the WPSL/PSL. Their date of hire on the PTA generated transfer list masquerading as a seniority list is meaningless for pay purposes. As the PTA says, the Encore DOH is used to give preference for "bidding purposes" and nothing more (besides vacation allotment).

The framers of the PTA could have easily stated that Encore pilots use their Encore DOH for placement on the Company maintained WPSL/PSL, but they did not.

This is the document, with all of its flaws, that will be handed to the SWG merger committee should we merge.

The other document is not an official seniority list. It is maintained by ALPA but as the PTA says, it is a transfer list.

I don't know how anyone could not see the truth now.
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imjustlurking
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by imjustlurking »

ALPAPolicy, you're posting a lot of words but not much substance.

I've lost count how many times I have said it, but I'll say it again.

The PTA is a ratified agreement that has superseded specific portions of the WS CBA. Your question of "where's the list?" is answered easily as "right in front of you."
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

imjustlurking wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:39 pm ALPAPolicy, you're posting a lot of words but not much substance.

I've lost count how many times I have said it, but I'll say it again.

The PTA is a ratified agreement that has superseded specific portions of the WS CBA. Your question of "where's the list?" is answered easily as "right in front of you."
Not much substance, eh. Riddle me this: do you agree that the Company is maintaining one list of pilots and ALPA is maintaining another.

If you answer correctly, we can move to step two.
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SPR
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by SPR »

ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:36 pm Part of the mystery has been solved. Who is responsible for maintaining the seniority list?

It depends on what you are referring to.

From the CBA:
-1. PILOT SENIORITY LIST

3-1.01. The Company shall maintain an updated Pilot Seniority List (PSL). The PSL shall be published quarterly (Jan 1, Apr 1, Jul 1, Oct 1) with a copy to the Association. The PSL shall be posted electronically on the Company intranet and shall remain there until replaced by an updated PSL. The PSL will also be made available on the EFB.
From the PTA:
10. CREATION AND ADMINISTRATION OF THE SENIORITY LIST

10.04 Once this process is complete, the Seniority List shall be shared with the airline managements (WestJet, Swoop, and Encore). Thereafter, an electronic copy of the
Seniority List, as amended, shall at a minimum be posted on the WestJet/Swoop and Encore MEC websites and made available on applicable airline EFBs.

10.05 The Association shall be responsible for maintaining the Seniority List in accordance with Section 2.02 of this LOA.
Seriously? I just explained this: The PTA is an LOA that amends the WestJet CBA, and supercedes portions of it regarding seniority. In that regard, the clause from the PTA supercedes the original clause from the CBA. The original clause from the CBA is null and void. The latter overrides the former. Do you need me to make this clearer?
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imjustlurking
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by imjustlurking »

ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:30 pm
imjustlurking wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:39 pm ALPAPolicy, you're posting a lot of words but not much substance.

I've lost count how many times I have said it, but I'll say it again.

The PTA is a ratified agreement that has superseded specific portions of the WS CBA. Your question of "where's the list?" is answered easily as "right in front of you."
Not much substance, eh. Riddle me this: do you agree that the Company is maintaining one list of pilots and ALPA is maintaining another.

If you answer correctly, we can move to step two.
From the PTA:
The Association shall be responsible for maintaining the Seniority List in accordance with Section 2.02 of this LOA.
I would not be surprised if the company has it's own list, but that's about as relevant as the colour of your eyebrows.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

SPR wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:48 pm
ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:36 pm Part of the mystery has been solved. Who is responsible for maintaining the seniority list?

It depends on what you are referring to.

From the CBA:
-1. PILOT SENIORITY LIST

3-1.01. The Company shall maintain an updated Pilot Seniority List (PSL). The PSL shall be published quarterly (Jan 1, Apr 1, Jul 1, Oct 1) with a copy to the Association. The PSL shall be posted electronically on the Company intranet and shall remain there until replaced by an updated PSL. The PSL will also be made available on the EFB.
From the PTA:
10. CREATION AND ADMINISTRATION OF THE SENIORITY LIST

10.04 Once this process is complete, the Seniority List shall be shared with the airline managements (WestJet, Swoop, and Encore). Thereafter, an electronic copy of the
Seniority List, as amended, shall at a minimum be posted on the WestJet/Swoop and Encore MEC websites and made available on applicable airline EFBs.

10.05 The Association shall be responsible for maintaining the Seniority List in accordance with Section 2.02 of this LOA.
Seriously? I just explained this: The PTA is an LOA that amends the WestJet CBA, and supercedes portions of it regarding seniority. In that regard, the clause from the PTA supercedes the original clause from the CBA. The original clause from the CBA is null and void. The latter overrides the former. Do you need me to make this clearer?
Yes, I do.

Where does it say the Company will stop maintaining its list?
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

imjustlurking wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:59 pm
ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:30 pm
imjustlurking wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:39 pm ALPAPolicy, you're posting a lot of words but not much substance.

I've lost count how many times I have said it, but I'll say it again.

The PTA is a ratified agreement that has superseded specific portions of the WS CBA. Your question of "where's the list?" is answered easily as "right in front of you."
Not much substance, eh. Riddle me this: do you agree that the Company is maintaining one list of pilots and ALPA is maintaining another.

If you answer correctly, we can move to step two.
From the PTA:
The Association shall be responsible for maintaining the Seniority List in accordance with Section 2.02 of this LOA.
I would not be surprised if the company has it's own list, but that's about as relevant as the colour of your eyebrows.
That's what you really think?

If the PTA were canceled today, following the 90 day wait period, on what list would a new hire pilot at WestJet or Swoop be placed?
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imjustlurking
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by imjustlurking »

ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:22 pm
imjustlurking wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:59 pm
ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:30 pm

Not much substance, eh. Riddle me this: do you agree that the Company is maintaining one list of pilots and ALPA is maintaining another.

If you answer correctly, we can move to step two.
From the PTA:
The Association shall be responsible for maintaining the Seniority List in accordance with Section 2.02 of this LOA.
I would not be surprised if the company has it's own list, but that's about as relevant as the colour of your eyebrows.
That's what you really think?

If the PTA were canceled today, following the 90 day wait period, on what list would a new hire pilot at WestJet or Swoop be placed?
You tell me.
11.03 Notwithstanding any other provision in this LOA, this LOA may be cancelled by any Party
to this LOA provided the Party doing so notifies the other Parties in writing of its intent.
If said notice is provided, this LOA will become null and void ninety (90) days after the
notice is received. If this LOA is cancelled, any Pilot who has received a reserved seniority
number in accordance with the terms of this LOA prior to the date of cancellation will be
protected and shall continue to use their reserved seniority number for all purposes
described in this LOA. The Parties shall not exercise their rights under this provision in an
arbitrary, discriminatory or bad faith manner.

11.03.01 The cancellation of this LOA is subject to a ratification vote by eligible Pilots in
the applicable bargaining unit that has served notice, pursuant to 11.03.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

The new hire pilot would be placed on the WPSL/PSL at the BOTL by date of hire at Swoop or WestJet, as has every pilot hired since January 1, 2019 been placed.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

The Company maintains the WPSL/PSL and has not published it since the PTA came into force, in spite of the fact that they were contractually obligated to do so.

Since 2019, at the same time that a new hire OTS pilot was placed on the WPSL/PSL at the BOTL, they were also placed on the PTA generated quote Seniority List unquote at the BOTL.

In the case of an Encore pilot flowing to WestJet as a new hire, they were also placed on the WPSL/PSL at the BOTL by date of hire at WestJet or Swoop. There was no effect on their placement on the PTA generated quote Seniority List unquote. They kept the same position they held since date of hire at Encore.
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Latitude
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by Latitude »

boeingboy wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:35 pm
sarg wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:21 pm
imjustlurking wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 3:25 pm

Sunwing Airlines as an airline has little value past it's physical assets. The only reason WestJet would have purchased the airline is so that they could also purchase Sunwing Vacations.

As it stands now, Sunwing Airlines is a charter airline that almost solely charters it's aircraft to Sunwing Vacations. It's purpose is to fulfill Sunwing Vacations vacation packages.
Or they bought 450ish pilot so the have a supply for expansion and the vacation company is a bonus.
:roll:

So neither of you understand anything - as with most people.

Westjet didn't go buy anything. They have no money. This was all Steven Hunter's deal, and I'll be willing to bet most of the negotiating was done between SH and GS - who then told the WJ BOD what was going down as well as providing the 100's of millions cash plus the millions of shares.

This was not a simple we bought you deal. SWG didn't need a deal to survive - we needed a deal to grow. It was a package deal from the start and if SH didn't get what he wanted, he would have waited until he found the right deal. It's been said many times that Westjet vacations is folding into the new tour group with Sunwing vacations - both to be marketed under their respective brands. Sunwing airlines is a division of Sunwing vacations and will remain so. (apparently with no integration...we will see about that) All of these companies fall under the direction of SH as CEO....and yes - Sunwing airlines will grow into other markets as I said above. it's already been hinted at as a way to keep the fleet from bouncing back and forth....besides - lots of those are sold by the vacation side - so who do you think will do some of the flying?
Good joke. Mind you Sunwing already used 326.7 m$ out of 448.3m$ approved by the LEEFF program... Still hasnt pay back any of this loan.

Sunwing paint job will eventually disappear once the dust settles and the deal is approved.
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Vanguard
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by Vanguard »

John Swallow is on a crusade he won’t win. If anyone reading anyone of his comments doesn’t realize what he’s trying to do, I hope you learned to read. Read the documents he’s trying to create confusion over.

I’ll be interested to see how John quickly vanishes once’s he’s done embarrassing himself in front of all his peers. Guess what he won’t even care knowing his personality. IFKYK.
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Vanguard
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by Vanguard »

Nashbandicoot wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:30 am The one list or "PTA" post vote #2 with cash incentive has always been extremely unfair to pilots recently hired directly at WestJet and extremely rewarding to pilots who flow from Encore. Worse now with the new reserve system and talk of seniority bidding. I hope the Sunwing pilots don't accept the unfair system we've created and a fair solution for Encore pilots can be had without punishing OTS hires. Ex Encore pilots YOS pay carries over but DOH at WestJet for bidding and upgrades. Nobody is punished by pilots parachuting over them while they sit on reserve for years and the Encore pilots are still rewarded for their time at Encore

What makes you so entitled to think you should go ahead of an Encore pilot who gave years to the company workijg 18-20 days and you got hired years later? It’s not a punishment. It was something you agreed to. If you’re so unhappy, AC just opened their applications.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

Vanguard wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:13 pm John Swallow is on a crusade he won’t win. If anyone reading anyone of his comments doesn’t realize what he’s trying to do, I hope you learned to read. Read the documents he’s trying to create confusion over.

I’ll be interested to see how John quickly vanishes once’s he’s done embarrassing himself in front of all his peers. Guess what he won’t even care knowing his personality. IFKYK.
You have the floor and can present opposing information to rebut any of the points I have made, free from interference, and all you can muster is an attack on me personally?

Why?
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boeingboy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by boeingboy »

Good joke. Mind you Sunwing already used 326.7 m$ out of 448.3m$ approved by the LEEFF program... Still hasnt pay back any of this loan.

Sunwing paint job will eventually disappear once the dust settles and the deal is approved.
Haha...OK, because you know so much of the situation.

We'll just agree to disagree - and wait to see which one of us is right.
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