Sunwing/Westjet

[pilot4life]

How does everyone feel about this?

[boeingboy]

How do you think?

[pilot4life]

Although it may not seem favourable in the short term when it comes to seniority..if they decide to merge, this is going to create a powerhouse of an airline and ensure job stability.
I hope, it all regulator approvals go through, that we could come to a good agreement that will be beneficial to both pilot groups.

[boeingboy]

Based on what I've seen with the Swoop/Westjet/Encore mess....I wont hold my breath.

[pilot4life]

I agree. It does seem like quite a mess over there. Maybe it’s time to clean house a little with all these agreements

[ads-b]

I'm feeling really positive. Seems like a perfect match. Sunwing doesn't have to do the accordion scramble every year to increase fleet size. Westjet gets the largest tour operator in Canada. What I really like though is getting thousands of Canadian pilots under one roof. Step in the right direction.

I was also told WJ is taking deliveries of 10 more 787, 30 aircraft 737 cargo operation and grow swoop to 30 tails.

Happy to be a part of it!!

[pilot4life]

Exactly what i was thinking. There will be a lot more opportunities for career progression.

[Airbrake]

I'm feeling really positive. Seems like a perfect match. Sunwing doesn't have to do the accordion scramble every year to increase fleet size. Westjet gets the largest tour operator in Canada. What I really like though is getting thousands of Canadian pilots under one roof. Step in the right direction.

I was also told WJ is taking deliveries of 10 more 787, 30 aircraft 737 cargo operation and grow swoop to 30 tails.

Happy to be a part of it!!

There are parts of that which is true.
We have options for 10 more 787’s. Swoop can grow to 30 tails and we have 4 confirmed 737 BCF’s coming.

The rest is speculation at this point.

[Dias]

I have my doubts that West Jet mainline will still exist. Swoop is domestic, Sunwing is vacation, Encore is regional, WestJet is? Are they going to keep the doors open for a few widebodies?

[pilot4life]

The Westjet YUL commuters are going to be all over this! Haha

[Cavalier44]

I always used to say that Sunwing was the best-kept secret in Canadian aviation. Great crews, great layovers, relatively laid back schedules, along with the opportunity to deploy to Europe in the summer months and see some very interesting and beautiful parts of the world while making some great cash, even as an FO. By far the greatest quality of life of any airline that I worked for.

I don't see how any of that will continue going forward. I strongly suspect that the TUI deployment model will come to an end, as there will no longer be any need for the accordion fleet model given how many aircraft WestJet and Swoop have available to them. It becomes much easier to expand and contract the fleet as demand requires, which obviously benefits the company from a cost standpoint but eliminates one of the great perks of the job.

They're telling people that the companies/brands will be kept separate for now, but I think that's more to placate people and prevent a max exodus from the Sunwing side of the operation. Inevitably, there will have to be a representation vote at some stage, which will likely result in Sunwing pilots moving over to ALPA from Unifor. Precedent from the Georgian and Sky Regional mergers into Jazz has shown that date of hire may be respected when it comes to merging seniority lists, but Sunwing is a relatively junior company as compared to WestJet. More than 50% of the pilot seniority list was hired from 2015 or later, with a significant number of pilots being hired in 2018-2019 timeframe. There are a lot of unanswered questions about whether or not those pilots will be able to hold their base or equipment.

Even if, best case scenario, Sunwing pilots are rolled into WestJet mainline with date of hire seniority, what does that mean for those pilots? Quality of life certainly takes a major hit if you like to deploy every year, or enjoy having the majority of your layovers at all-inclusive Caribbean locations. Worst case scenario, WestJet pilots are able to bump Sunwing pilots out of base or equipment, what then? Does a Sunwing YUL-based 737 FO get bumped into a WestJet Encore Q400 FO position? Does YUL even continue to exist as a base going forward, or do pairings get constructed to bring crews into YUL from YYZ or elsewhere?

I hate to come across as a pessimist when so little information has been provided, but with all these uncertainties, is it worth it to take the risk when other airlines are starting to ramp up hiring in a post-COVID era? Sunwing and WestJet management will have to provide some clear information on what's to be expected as a result of this acquisition unless they want to see Sunwing pilots start to jump ship as soon as they're able.

[cloak]

Clearly there are lots of speculations. And surely there will be changes, some of which may be “perceived” as negative by some, like loss of summer EU flying since it was based on reciprocity, but it is unlikely the purpose of this acquisition was to reduce flying, rather to create synergy and grow. For instance, almost immediately 25 Canadian registered tails will be added for winter flying more than doubling the size of Sunwing fleet and creating new Canadian positions. Another one will be more Sun flying in the summer since although not enough before to fill the plane and justify the run, now it can be easily added to the existing lift further improving yields.

Contrary to what someone said above, WestJet mainline too, particularly 787 fleet will likely see good growth in both East and the West with new routes being introduced. As well a new cargo division will have more demand. As with any merger/acquisition, likely there will be fences put in for the short term, for instance for C3/Royal it was 3 years. So while there may be some challenges during the transition, overall it will create new opportunities that otherwise would not have been there.

[ALPApolicy]

I always used to say that Sunwing was the best-kept secret in Canadian aviation. Great crews, great layovers, relatively laid back schedules, along with the opportunity to deploy to Europe in the summer months and see some very interesting and beautiful parts of the world while making some great cash, even as an FO. By far the greatest quality of life of any airline that I worked for.

I don't see how any of that will continue going forward. I strongly suspect that the TUI deployment model will come to an end, as there will no longer be any need for the accordion fleet model given how many aircraft WestJet and Swoop have available to them. It becomes much easier to expand and contract the fleet as demand requires, which obviously benefits the company from a cost standpoint but eliminates one of the great perks of the job.

They're telling people that the companies/brands will be kept separate for now, but I think that's more to placate people and prevent a max exodus from the Sunwing side of the operation. Inevitably, there will have to be a representation vote at some stage, which will likely result in Sunwing pilots moving over to ALPA from Unifor. Precedent from the Georgian and Sky Regional mergers into Jazz has shown that date of hire may be respected when it comes to merging seniority lists, but Sunwing is a relatively junior company as compared to WestJet. More than 50% of the pilot seniority list was hired from 2015 or later, with a significant number of pilots being hired in 2018-2019 timeframe. There are a lot of unanswered questions about whether or not those pilots will be able to hold their base or equipment.

Even if, best case scenario, Sunwing pilots are rolled into WestJet mainline with date of hire seniority, what does that mean for those pilots? Quality of life certainly takes a major hit if you like to deploy every year, or enjoy having the majority of your layovers at all-inclusive Caribbean locations. Worst case scenario, WestJet pilots are able to bump Sunwing pilots out of base or equipment, what then? Does a Sunwing YUL-based 737 FO get bumped into a WestJet Encore Q400 FO position? Does YUL even continue to exist as a base going forward, or do pairings get constructed to bring crews into YUL from YYZ or elsewhere?

I hate to come across as a pessimist when so little information has been provided, but with all these uncertainties, is it worth it to take the risk when other airlines are starting to ramp up hiring in a post-COVID era? Sunwing and WestJet management will have to provide some clear information on what's to be expected as a result of this acquisition unless they want to see Sunwing pilots start to jump ship as soon as they're able.

There are some assumptions in your post that I would like to add some commentary to. I am a WJ pilot with 19 years seniority and prior to that went through the C3/ROY/CJ merger and the collapse of Air Atlantic. Apart from that I'm just a dude.

1. "Inevitably, there will have to be a representation vote at some stage."

Yes and no. If the CIRB does some sampling and determines that there is overwhelming support for ALPA, they may dispense with a vote. I don't know what the threshold is but I would think we meet the threshold for not holding a vote.

2. "Precedent from the Georgian and Sky Regional mergers into Jazz has shown that date of hire may be respected when it comes to merging seniority lists..."

Precedent plays very little part in the CIRB rulings and there is enough case law on mergers in Canada to see that a DOH merger is by no means a done deal, and especially with respect to the unique situation within the pilot groups at WJ, it is hard to see how that happens. Assuming this sale completes, is this going to be a merger of SunWing pilots with WJ mainline pilots and Swoop pilots (who are in the same bargaining unit as a result of ALPA and WestJet agreeing to a common employer designation) or is this a merger with all WestJet group pilots (including Encore pilots)?

Personally, I think a common employer application would be made at some point under Sections 18 and 35 of the Canada Labour Code. In my non-lawyer opinion, the application would exclude Encore pilots. Merger negotiations would occur between WJ/Swoop and SunWing with the goal of producing an Integrated Seniority List (ISL). Negotiations will reach an impasse, and then the issue will go to mediation/arbitration.

If you go to www.canlii.org and search "merger" + "pilots" + "airlines" "seniority list", you should have a fun few days of reading.

3. "Worst case scenario, WestJet pilots are able to bump Sunwing pilots out of base or equipment..."

Anything is possible, including a closure of the YUL pilot base at some point, but there are going to be enough jobs for all pilots as a result of growth at WJ and Encore and existing vacancies. No one has a crystal ball of course, so you will have to make a decision at some point on what is best for you. Good luck in making that decision and I hope we get to fly togther at some point if you stay put.

PM me at any time with any questions on WJ stuff. I am fairly current on SunWing operations as a result of a friendship with your number 2 (at this time) pilot.

John Swallow

[ALPApolicy]

cloak posted as I was composing my post, but I agree with what he said.

[BeechjetYKZ]

I always used to say that Sunwing was the best-kept secret in Canadian aviation. Great crews, great layovers, relatively laid back schedules, along with the opportunity to deploy to Europe in the summer months and see some very interesting and beautiful parts of the world while making some great cash, even as an FO. By far the greatest quality of life of any airline that I worked for.

I don't see how any of that will continue going forward. I strongly suspect that the TUI deployment model will come to an end, as there will no longer be any need for the accordion fleet model given how many aircraft WestJet and Swoop have available to them. It becomes much easier to expand and contract the fleet as demand requires, which obviously benefits the company from a cost standpoint but eliminates one of the great perks of the job.

They're telling people that the companies/brands will be kept separate for now, but I think that's more to placate people and prevent a max exodus from the Sunwing side of the operation. Inevitably, there will have to be a representation vote at some stage, which will likely result in Sunwing pilots moving over to ALPA from Unifor. Precedent from the Georgian and Sky Regional mergers into Jazz has shown that date of hire may be respected when it comes to merging seniority lists, but Sunwing is a relatively junior company as compared to WestJet. More than 50% of the pilot seniority list was hired from 2015 or later, with a significant number of pilots being hired in 2018-2019 timeframe. There are a lot of unanswered questions about whether or not those pilots will be able to hold their base or equipment.

Quality of life certainly takes a major hit if you like to deploy every year, or enjoy having the majority of your layovers at all-inclusive Caribbean locations. Worst case scenario, WestJet pilots are able to bump Sunwing pilots out of base or equipment, what then? Does a Sunwing YUL-based 737 FO get bumped into a WestJet Encore Q400 FO position? Does YUL even continue to exist as a base going forward, or do pairings get constructed to bring crews into YUL from YYZ or elsewhere?

I hate to come across as a pessimist when so little information has been provided, but with all these uncertainties, is it worth it to take the risk when other airlines are starting to ramp up hiring in a post-COVID era? Sunwing and WestJet management will have to provide some clear information on what's to be expected as a result of this acquisition unless they want to see Sunwing pilots start to jump ship as soon as they're able.

The deployments to Europe and layovers in the Caribbean were more of an "icing on the cake" so to speak. I would hardly see the SW pilots losing them as being major "quality of life" issues. Who are SW pilots going to "jump ship" for that would offer them the same chance to essentially vacation for free on the company's dime (European deployment and Caribbean layovers).

[FL030]

Layovers are not free vacations. You are at work. Let's make that clear right now.

[fish4life]

For the Sunwing pilots concerned about losing some things they hold dear to them this article doesn’t paint the brightest picture for Sunwings financial health.
You guys (WJ and Sunwing) pilots better figure shit out and work together because if you spend the next few years divided you won’t make any contract gains which will make it harder for AC to improve our conditions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theglo ... tor-faces/

[Cavalier44]

The deployments to Europe and layovers in the Caribbean were more of an "icing on the cake" so to speak. I would hardly see the SW pilots losing them as being major "quality of life" issues. Who are SW pilots going to "jump ship" for that would offer them the same chance to essentially vacation for free on the company's dime (European deployment and Caribbean layovers).

With all due respect, you obviously don't know very much about Sunwing. Deployments aren't just a major quality of life issue, they are probably the quality of life issue that's worth talking about. They're what attracted most people to come work for the company, and the reason many have stayed despite having the option to go elsewhere. The deployments are what set Sunwing apart from every other airline in Canada.

If the AOCs and seniority lists are merged into a single entity, I struggle to see what could be seen as an improvement for Sunwing pilots. Deployments gone, cushy schedules gone, Caribbean flying gone for those not senior enough to hold it (goodbye Cancun, hello LaGuardia, Fort McMurray, etc. - or even worse, being stuck on reserve), salary on par but take-home pay drastically reduced due to the necessity of contributing to employee stock purchasing plan, lack of a pension plan, etc.

Let me say that I have absolutely no animosity towards WestJet or its employees; I have several close friends who work there and I'm well aware of the "situation on the ground" as it were. Mergers are always difficult and stressful times for all the parties involved. It is just my personal opinion that this is a much better deal for WestJet and for Sunwing's ownership group (Hunters seem very pleased at becoming shareholders in the WS group of companies) than it is for the Sunwing pilot group, who have the most to lose in this proposed merger.

[ALPApolicy]

The deployments to Europe and layovers in the Caribbean were more of an "icing on the cake" so to speak. I would hardly see the SW pilots losing them as being major "quality of life" issues. Who are SW pilots going to "jump ship" for that would offer them the same chance to essentially vacation for free on the company's dime (European deployment and Caribbean layovers).

With all due respect, you obviously don't know very much about Sunwing. Deployments aren't just a major quality of life issue, they are probably the quality of life issue that's worth talking about. They're what attracted most people to come work for the company, and the reason many have stayed despite having the option to go elsewhere. The deployments are what set Sunwing apart from every other airline in Canada.

If the AOCs and seniority lists are merged into a single entity, I struggle to see what could be seen as an improvement for Sunwing pilots. Deployments gone, cushy schedules gone, Caribbean flying gone for those not senior enough to hold it (goodbye Cancun, hello LaGuardia, Fort McMurray, etc. - or even worse, being stuck on reserve), salary on par but take-home pay drastically reduced due to the necessity of contributing to employee stock purchasing plan, lack of a pension plan, etc.

Let me say that I have absolutely no animosity towards WestJet or its employees; I have several close friends who work there and I'm well aware of the "situation on the ground" as it were. Mergers are always difficult and stressful times for all the parties involved. It is just my personal opinion that this is a much better deal for WestJet and for Sunwing's ownership group (Hunters seem very pleased at becoming shareholders in the WS group of companies) than it is for the Sunwing pilot group, who have the most to lose in this proposed merger.

It doesn't look like the results of a seniority list merger will make much difference to your decision on whether to stay or go. You want what you used to have.

I agree, you are going to lose most of the things that you found important at SWG. I wish you good luck in deciding what you want to do next.

[circle2land]

… this is a much better deal for WestJet and for Sunwing's ownership group (Hunters seem very pleased at becoming shareholders in the WS group of companies) than it is for the Sunwing pilot group, who have the most to lose in this proposed merger.

Agreed 100%.