Sunwing/Westjet

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elite
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by elite »

FlyingMonkey wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:14 am Killing the PTA doesn’t remove Encore pilots from their seniority shared with WJ and Swoop. The language in the PTA states that any member of the agreement can move to cancel it. However it also states that everyone presently on the “one list” will maintain the seniority number they have when/if it is cancelled. So everyone currently on it will be grandfathered in. The 500 plus Encore pilots will not lose their seniority simply because the PTA is cancelled, only new hires after the PTA is cancelled.
Perhaps, then again perhaps not.
Let’s say Sunwing pilots challenge this and take it to court. Once they say we are merging with WestJet which is a common employer with Swoop, but why are we forced to merge with Encore? What can be said to that? Because we have a PTA?!
There is little chance that argument will hold up in court. It is the equivalent of someone marrying an underaged person and then saying we have a marriage contract. That marriage will become null and void.
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elite
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by elite »

ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:44 am As I understand the aims of the Code and the two previous rulings of the CIRB regarding a common employer declaration between Air Canada and its wholly owned (at the time) subsidiaries Air BC, Air Ontaro, Air Alliance, Alliance, and Air Nova, the likelihood of common employer between WestJet, Swoop, and Encore is a whisker's width from zero….
There would have been many reasons why Encore was created a separate company, and those reasons still exist, plus a few more. It’s not only the question of significant additional cost to company for YOS, but more importantly is labour diversification that allows some protection for operation in case of disruption, plus the flexibility in case of divesture. It would be very surprising to see the company agree to common employer status. And without common employer, it is difficult to keep the PTA. And it is difficult to see any grandfather clause either because essentially they have to get Sunwing pilots to agree to it, much to their own detriment! Very unlikely.
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Nashbandicoot
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by Nashbandicoot »

The one list or "PTA" post vote #2 with cash incentive has always been extremely unfair to pilots recently hired directly at WestJet and extremely rewarding to pilots who flow from Encore. Worse now with the new reserve system and talk of seniority bidding. I hope the Sunwing pilots don't accept the unfair system we've created and a fair solution for Encore pilots can be had without punishing OTS hires. Ex Encore pilots YOS pay carries over but DOH at WestJet for bidding and upgrades. Nobody is punished by pilots parachuting over them while they sit on reserve for years and the Encore pilots are still rewarded for their time at Encore
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

elite wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:03 am There would have been many reasons why Encore was created a separate company, and those reasons still exist, plus a few more. It’s not only the question of significant additional cost to company for YOS, but more importantly is labour diversification that allows some protection for operation in case of disruption, plus the flexibility in case of divesture. It would be very surprising to see the company agree to common employer status. And without common employer, it is difficult to keep the PTA. And it is difficult to see any grandfather clause either because essentially they have to get Sunwing pilots to agree to it, much to their own detriment! Very unlikely.
Agreed. Our MEC Vice-Chair made the statement a month or so ago that common employer between WestJet and Encore would be beneficial to both pilots and to WestJet/Encore management but that management wasn't enlightened enough (or equivalent words) to see it yet.

This was pre merger announcement, but I stated why not just give Encore flow pilots full YOS for pay etc when they flow but was told that WJA would never go for that because it would be too expensive. But they would go for common employer?

The only way having WJA/WEN pilots on the same seniority list is to collapse Encore's AOC and collapse the commerical entity that is Encore and make the Q400 just another type in the WestJet fleet. This is what the WPPA dude in the video wanted and he was the guy who was our first MEC Chair that brought in the non DOH seniority list. I often wonder if they thought they could force the Board to declare common employer because it would solve all of our problems with seniority.

As I saw when I sat in the CIRB hearing room when Canada 3000 CEO Angus Kinnear was denied his request to sever the ROY FAs from the merged FA seniority list (with CMM FAs and maybe Canjet FAs) the CIRB will not be pushed around or forced into corners. They have the Code and principles to guide them.

Canada 3000 collapsed fully later that night.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

FlyingMonkey wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:14 am Killing the PTA doesn’t remove Encore pilots from their seniority shared with WJ and Swoop. The language in the PTA states that any member of the agreement can move to cancel it. However it also states that everyone presently on the “one list” will maintain the seniority number they have when/if it is cancelled. So everyone currently on it will be grandfathered in. The 500 plus Encore pilots will not lose their seniority simply because the PTA is cancelled, only new hires after the PTA is cancelled.
I haven't seen a seniority list for the WSW/WJA bargaining unit but it is described in our CBA as:
Pilot Seniority List (PSL/WPSL)

The PSL is the list of pilots who are employed by WestJet, and Swoop.
In the CBA, I can find no mention of Encore pilots having a position on the PSL. Therefore, I am unsure what you mean when you say "Encore pilots will not lose their seniority". With respect to the WSW/WJA bargaining unit, and I could be wrong, but I am not sure Encore pilots have any seniority to lose.

In the CBA, seniority is defined as:
Seniority
The position a pilot holds on the Pilot Seniority List (PSL/WPSL)
I wanted to add to this line of reasoning.

In the PTA, seniority isn't defined, but under the PTA section entitled Seniority, this is written:
SENIORITY
2.01 A combined seniority list, known as the “Seniority List,” shall be created through the process provided for in Section 10, below. Once created, the Seniority List shall be used for transfers between Swoop and WestJet, and between Encore and Swoop or WestJet.
Note the differences in the descriptions of the respective lists.The PTA describes its list as a transfer list. The CBA describes its list as the list of pilots who are employed by WestJet, and Swoop. The CBA further describes seniority as being a place one holds on that list, the PSL.

Question: if you are terminated from Encore as a pilot, do you lose your position on the quote Seniority List unquote that is generated by the PTA?

The PTA makes no reference to this. If the PTA generated quote Seniority List unquote were a true seniority list, would it not provide for the removal of a pilot from the list in the event he were terminated?

In contrast, the WSW/WJA CBA says this:
LOSS OF SENIORITY STANDING

3-5.01. A Pilot shall lose their Seniority standing when:
a) They are dismissed, resign or retire;
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Here is a scenario:

A pilot was laid off at WestJet and exercised his/her PTA privileges and was hired at Encore where he/she was subsequently terminated from their employment. He/she expected to use his/her recall rights to WSW/WJA. WJA/WJA maintained that he/she was effectively terminated from the "group" of companies and effectively removed from the quote Seniority List unquote. ALPA rightfully grieved this and was successful.

The pilot retained his/her recall rights, his/her position on the quote Seniority List unquote and I maintain, his/her position on the WPSL/PSL. It is very likely that he/she lost his/her position on the Encore seniority list, should one be found.

After all of this, please tell me which seniority list will be given to the SWG Merger Committee if we end up merging with them.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

With respect to my last post above, what does the section of the PSL look like for WSW/WJA pilots hired after the CBA came into force on January 1, 2019, when compared to the relative positions of those same WSW/WJA pilots hired after the CBA came into force on January 1, 2019 on the quote Seniority List unquote generated by the PTA?

The CBA says:
DEFINITIONS

Seniority

The position a pilot holds on the Pilot Seniority List (PSL/WPSL).


3 – SENIORITY

3-1.04. Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, Seniority shall begin to accrue from a Pilot’s DOH as a Pilot with the Company and shall continue to accrue during such period of service.
As I mentioned in the previous post, the PTA makes one and only one reference to the WPSL/PSL:
10 CREATION AND ADMINISTRATION OF THE SENIORITY LIST

10.01 As provided in Section 2.01 of this LOA, the Seniority List shall be created by initially utilizing the WestJet Pilot Seniority List as published on November 1, 2019.
The PTA states that a pilot will be given a position on the PTA transfer list (the quote Seniority List unquote) in the following fashion:
2.02 Once this LOA becomes effective, any Pilot who is hired at WestJet, Swoop, or Encore shall be assigned a seniority number based on date of hire at the respective airline.
Further, the preamble of the PTA states:
WHEREAS, except as provided for in this Letter of Agreement (“LOA”), nothing herein is intended to modify, supersede or otherwise amend the contractual provisions negotiated in the WestJet Collective Agreement, the Encore Collective Agreement, or the Swoop letter of understanding.
From these important paragraphs, I believe that an Encore pilot who flowed to WSW/WJA after Jan 1, 2019, has a challenge ahead of him/her in defending their belief on where they think they are on the WPSL/PSL. Additionally, pilots at Encore at this time have not been hired at Swoop or WestJet and I do not believe they have a position on the WSW/WJA bargaining unit's WPSL/PSL generated by the CBA.

From what I can tell, the relative ordering of WSW/WJA pilots on the WPSL/PSL hired after January 1, 2019 and having been previously employed at Encore or elsewhere, is different from the relative ordering of these same WSW/WJA pilots on the PTA generated transfer list (the quote Seniority List unquote) hired after January 1, 2019.

Should the Sunwing purchase complete, and should common employer be sought and declared between (most likely) WSW/WJA and SWG, there is going to be a heck of a lot of controversy.

ALPA pilots did their best in 1956 to warn us:
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YOU WERE WARNED
YOU WERE WARNED
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:48 am, edited 6 times in total.
ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

As a reminder, the WPSL/PSL created by the CBA must exist, even though we cannot access it and it hasn't been seen in the wild or in captivity in several years and it will outlive the transfer list masquerading as a quote Seniority List unquote created by the PTA.

Section 11 of the PTA provides for the cancellation of the Agreement on request by one of the parties. Ninety (90) days later the Agreement is cancelled. This effectively freezes the quote Seniority List unquote and makes it inert.

The PTA contains no express provision that the transfer list masquerading as a quote Seniority List unquote will continue in force and have new hires added to it in the event that the PTA is cancelled.

This is the cancellation provision of the PTA and the only cancellation provision:
11.03 Notwithstanding any other provision in this LOA, this LOA may be cancelled by any Party to this LOA provided the Party doing so notifies the other Parties in writing of its intent. If said notice is provided, this LOA will become null and void ninety (90) days after the notice is received. If this LOA is cancelled, any Pilot who has received a reserved seniority number in accordance with the terms of this LOA prior to the date of cancellation will be protected and shall continue to use their reserved seniority number for all purposes described in this LOA. The Parties shall not exercise their rights under this provision in an arbitrary, discriminatory or bad faith manner.

11.03.01 The cancellation of this LOA is subject to a ratification vote by eligible Pilots in
the applicable bargaining unit that has served notice, pursuant to 11.03.
If a pilot is hired at WSW/WJA one day after the Agreement is cancelled, what list will he/she placed on? I believe the answer is clear: the WPSL/PSL created by the CBA. Remember, the PTA has no mechanism to place a pilot on the WPSL/PSL even if the PTA is in force and remains in force.

According to the WSW/WJA CBA, the only way to be given a place on the WPSL/PSL is to be hired at Swoop or WestJet and to be placed on the bottom of the list (BOTL) by Date of Hire at Swoop or WestJet.
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
imjustlurking
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by imjustlurking »

ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:14 am Remember, the PTA has no mechanism to place a pilot on the WPSL/PSL even if the PTA is in force and remains in force.

According to the WSW/WJA CBA, the only way to be given a place on the WPSL/PSL is to be hired at Swoop or WestJet and to be placed on the bottom of the list (BOTL) by Date of Hire at Swoop or WestJet.
The following point (along with the rest of the PTA) was ratified and overrides the CBA until the PTA is revoked. Take note of the bolded text.
Notwithstanding any other provision in this LOA, this LOA may be cancelled by any Party
to this LOA provided the Party doing so notifies the other Parties in writing of its intent.
If said notice is provided, this LOA will become null and void ninety (90) days after the
notice is received. If this LOA is cancelled, any Pilot who has received a reserved seniority
number in accordance with the terms of this LOA prior to the date of cancellation will be
protected and shall continue to use their reserved seniority number for all purposes
described in this LOA.
The Parties shall not exercise their rights under this provision in an
arbitrary, discriminatory or bad faith manner.
What that means is, when an Encore pilot flows to WestJet or Swoop, they get a seniority number based on their position on the PTA PSL. That position is non-revokable.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

imjustlurking wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:24 amWhat that means is, when an Encore pilot flows to WestJet or Swoop, they get a seniority number based on their position on the PTA PSL. That position is non-revokable.
There is no such creature as a PTA PSL.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

Further, there is no mechanism in either the CBA or the PTA by which the grant of a quote seniority number unquote generated by the PTA places a pilot on the WPSL/PSL created by the CBA.

The CBA is clear, and contains the only reference in either document on how to gain access to the WPSL/PSL: it is by being hired at Swoop or WestJet and being placed at the BOTL by Date of Hire at Swoop or WestJet (for those pilots hired after the CBA came into force on January 1, 2019)

This is not my fault. I didn't cause this. I am merely reading the words that other people wrote.

If there is another legal interpretation of the plain language words that those people used, I am open to suggestions.

John
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
imjustlurking
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by imjustlurking »

ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:38 am Further, there is no mechanism in either the CBA or the PTA by which the grant of a quote seniority number unquote generated by the PTA places a pilot on the WPSL/PSL.

The CBA is clear, and contains the only reference in either document on how to gain access to the WPSL/PSL: it is by being hired or Swoop or Encore and being placed at the BOTL by Date of Hire at Swoop or Encore.

This is not my fault. I didn't cause this. I am merely reading the words that other people wrote.

If there is another legal interpretation of the plain language words that those people used, I am open to suggestions.

John
If it goes to arbitration, an arbitrator will see an agreement signed that has the clear intent to slot pilots in to the WJ/WO list as specified in the PTA. It was ratified by vote.

I'm not sure who or what you are arguing for... you kept your captain position throughout the pandemic. Why not ask your FOs that you fly with how the PTA saved their asses when layoffs came?
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

imjustlurking wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:43 amIf it goes to arbitration, an arbitrator will see an agreement signed that has the clear intent to slot pilots in to the WJ/WO list as specified in the PTA. It was ratified by vote.
I can find no legal underpinning to your argument. Has someone in your MEC or at Encore told you this is the case?
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

imjustlurking wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:43 amI'm not sure who or what you are arguing for... you kept your captain position throughout the pandemic. Why not ask your FOs that you fly with how the PTA saved their asses when layoffs came?
What I am discussing here has nothing to do with the points you raise here. It will not influence the CIRB either. I can tell you this with absolute certainty as I watched my world fall apart in 2001 while I watched a desperate and frantic man, Angus Kinnear, lay out the position of Canada 3000:

Give us what we want today or Canada 3000 will shut the door tomorrow.

Guess what? The CIRB refused Canada 3000's request and the company didn't make it through the night.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

This is my face (on the right) the morning after Canada 3000 closed its doors. Some of you make recognize Arizona's, as well as the mug of a pilot who graced the cover of Wings magazine as Canada's youngest Captain of an Airbus 330 at the time.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

A few hours prior to the above photo I wrote a probably over emotional letter to myself. In my defense, it was my third airlne lay-off or company failure in 4 years. The parties involved in the threesome were Canada 3000/ROYAL/Canjet.

stick a fork in me, cos i'm done


Nov 14, 2001 at 3:48 a.m.

it's pretty late. after 3:00 am. Stone cold sober. i think i now realize that i've been in denial about our situation. Rationally i thought our chances were low. But emotionally i was in left field, pretty far out.

i'm feeling something akin to being a jilted lover. I've been spurned. Tossed away with yesterday's garbage without time to plead my case and convince her to stay. Five years ago i made the decision to get involved with another lover whose name was air atlantic.Thats after years of cheap dates, tawdry affairs that got me nowhere, but were fun. This new relationship was definitely better. Wasn't even jealous of the sexier outfit across the tarmac. I held off falling in love, however. It took some time. Then i got cosy. Then comfortable. Got used to working with the people, knowing my job, crapping on management. The drill. Thought it time to settle down. Buy house. Two car garage. Join dart league. Gots me a pension and medical coverage to boot. Then we started squabbling. The relationship went backwards for a while. Then appeared to stabilize. Maybe outsiders saw it coming. I didn't. She dumped me. Told me to get out of the house. So I took my real life GF on a road trip that went from YHZ to YUL.


My new lover, ROYAL, was a boost to my career. The 310 was good. Big. Took me far away. Was taught new techniques and positions, realized that i had much to learn. Cool. Drank beer in new locales and with new friends. No matter what time you arrived somewhere, after a couple of hours of sleep, it became friday night. Even got to practice my rusty french, with some success.

But i've been jilted before. I hope she'll understand if i don't go head over heels right away. I mean, i liked her enough. I think she had some warts, but lets call that character. But after eight months, she wants a break. Temporary she says. I don't trust her. I don't need a two month break. I've been here before, so i look around, find someone. She sure dresses well...

Where do i start? She's got pride. No doubt she's got pride. She's smart, sexy, and if you don't mind, pretty good in the sack. Her daddy ain't rich but that's cool. She used to be on the other team. Now i'm on her team. I'll have to move again to be near her, but that's my way in any case.

Sure hope i can fit in. Must be a chip on my shoulder. I think i might be a little standoffish. My previous GF's were just as good, i say. But i want her to like me, and i don't want to let on that i like her. Then i hear about a new girl back home in YHZ, wonder should i ditch this one and head east? No, i get rid of my real life GF instead and concentrate on my new life here, in TO.

Start liking the big city. Things are going great. Expansion. More planes, might see left seat for first time since light twins. I figger I got me a keeper. Jed, get yer sunday clothes, cos were off to the preacher.

You want a what? With my Ex???? Are you sick???? Maybe you don't realize the possible consequences... Awright, i'm in. Menage-a-trois it is. Let's just do it and get on with things.

I should have known she'd like it. Wants to try another one with a downeaster. Fair enough. But this is turning into one hell of an orgy. I'm uneasy, but i warm to the idea through creative visualization. We don't want a repeat of a well known shotgun marriage across town. If we can bring together some east coasters, some french guys, some city slickers, and some tree huggers and make it work, we'll have something really big.

Hmmm, economy slows. That marriage across town has problems. Lots and lots of counselling. Weekend retreats. Still fighting, and not just behind closed doors. Whacks on head with frying pans, real frying pans, not that nonstick eurotrash stuff.

Looks like they'll stay together, for the kids they say. Hope it works. Just glad we're not them. We're okay. My broker's a bit pissed but my accountant says we're in great shape. I trust.

Ah jesus, the inlaws are fighting with my folks. Apparently can't stand each other. Saw that coming.
Lawsuits. Name the blame game. I'm thinking separate beds for awhile, but no lets go on.

Was it Don Henley who said, "In a new york minute...everything can change". Yah, but we're okay aren't we? Well, you kept the receipts, right? How about a pre-nup? Okay. That's fine, lets just go visit that nice man at the bank and i'm sure we'll sort this out.

The bank guy's coming through. Hooray! Nervous laughter. Thing's will pick up in the spring, you watch.

Move to the Beaches district of TO. Rent's higher but its a happenin scene. I'll pick up a bed in a week or so, next paycheck. Tuesday. Sleeping on hardwood floor. Woke up early cos i'm sleeping on hardwood floor. Put on Howard Stern on the radio at 6:00 am. News bulletin at commercial break. Severing the relationship? Conflicting emotions. Watching motherinlaw go over cliff in new cadillac.

This will help right? I guess we're dreaming for the old days. You know, everybody happy. Sorry about that guys, but ya gotta go. So I go watch he-who-must-be-obeyed try to bully an independent government agency. I watch former colleagues and current friends want to tear him another asshole. I understand. But they say we have to , what do i know? I'll gain back those hundred numbers that date of hire gave me. But its still rude.

Tuesday. 6:00 pm. Fresh from Board of Directors meeting. Back to resume testimony. "I am hereby authorized by the board of directors to inform the CIRB that the BoD has resolved that unless you give me what i want, i'm taking my ball and going home." Oh yeah, instead of going to work for the last two months i've been playing Video Lottery Terminals and, all our savings are gone, credit cars are maxed, and i've popped my giggling pin.


Floored. Hurt. Scared. Pissed off. Why didn't you say something sooner? I could have helped. Meanwhile, mr man himself, empire building rich alberta dude is off on vacation. Rumours changing. Unions negotiating. Blame CUPE. The inevitable downward spiral. The emperor's new clothes...

It's now monday morning after 4:00 am. This letter has helped. I think i can sleep. unemployed. former airline pilot. credit cards maxed. still sleeping on floor. stiff upper lip right? honest that wasn't a tear at Arizona's the other night. If it was, it's because i was drunk...

So my lady is leaving me. "She's gone, 'by, she's gone". She let me down. Let me love her and sleep beside her, and leaves a lot of us wondering what might have been. Maybe the only way to truly fall in love is to let your guard down. Believe the dream. Smile on the way to work. Happy just to be there.


I'm not sure i'll love again. I hope so. Right now i look for answers that are not there because i don't have the whole picture. Maybe someday i'll know why she left me. If i do date agin in this industry, i'll try to be distant. Hands off. Sure you will. I give it six months and you'll be drinking the koolaid. Otherwise you just become one of those jaded old farts we call airline Captains. (No disrespect.)

She was sexy though, wasn't she...
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

What's kind of ironic is that I hadn't seen the guy in the photo below (I'm on the right) in many, many years. I ran into him in the YYZ T3 Tim Hortons line up last week. I was living with him when I wrote the above letter to myself and typed it on his computer.

He works at SWG and I work at WJA and we might be getting the old gang back together.

I will post the photo I took of us if he gives me approval.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

In light of the preceding speculation from a non-lawyer pilot, were I a Swoop or WestJet pilot hired since January 1, 2019, I would send an email to wsmlo@westjet.com and politely ask to see the WPSL/PSL that the CBA says is to be posted 4 times a year.

If the request is denied, the next step would be to contact ALPA using a DART form and ask them to file a grievance. If that request was denied, I would contact the CIRB and file Duty of Fair Representation claim referencing your rights under the CBA.

If the Company does supply a WPSL/PSL, I would then verify my personal information and confirm that my date of hire is correct (the date I was hired at WestJet or Swoop) and then I would confirm I have been placed on the WPSL/PSL in order of my date of hire (for those hired after January 1, 2019).

If my information was not correct as specified in the CBA, a pilot has 30 days to correct that information. If the Company refuses and you believe you are correct, then you must contact ALPA using a DART. If ALPA refuses to file a grievance, you have 90 days from the date you became aware or reasonably could have been expected to be aware that your information was incorrect to file a DFR claim with the CIRB. Time is of the essence.

The issue of the WPSL/PSL and the ordering of pilots hired at Swoop or WestJet since January 1, 2019, needs to be clarified BEFORE the MEC appoints a merger committee or at least before the committee exchanges information with the Sunwing merger committee.
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

Excuse my verbosity, but things need to be said.

The framers of the PTA can be partly be excused. I do not think they turned their minds to:

1) layoffs on the scale of the Covid pandemic related layoffs,

2) A situation created by the Covid pandemic in which a WJA pilot would be laid off and then hired at Encore, only to to be terminated at Encore but retain his recall rights to the WSW/WJA bargaining unit thereby putting the lie to the facade that the PTA generated quote Seniority List unquote was an actual seniority list, and

3) A purchase of another airline by the WestJet group of companies exposing weakness, inconsistencies, and absurdities in the Pilot Transfer Agreement and its operation on bargaining unit seniority as defined in the CBA.

I think they can partially but not completely be excused. This whole problem originated in a corporation's attempt to avoid paying pilots market rate pay and working conditions but instead transferred the problem onto the backs of pilots in the form of a ticking time bomb (seniority rights) set to explode in the future when hopefully the people responsible for the situation would be off property, sunning themselves in Palm Springs, Colorado, or numerous other locations to which our management teams of yesteryear have retreated.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by ALPApolicy »

In my non-lawyer opinion, the strongest argument that a pilot who flowed from Encore to WestJet or Swoop since January 1, 2019 has that justifies a non-DOH super-seniority position on the WPSL/PSL by Encore DOH is section 3.04 of the PTA:
3.04. Upon commencement of active employment at WestJet or Swoop, an Encore Pilot transferred in accordance with Section 3.03 of this LOA shall have his or her length of service from date of hire at Encore transferred to WestJet or Swoop and used for seniority for bidding purposes, vacation allotment and bidding points.
This will, I believe, be the crux of argument used by post January 1, 2019 Encore flow pilots at WestJet or Swoop prior to the date of bargaining unit integration (common employer declaration) as well as Encore pilots who intend to flow to WestJet or Swoop in the future.

The essential question is:

What is meant by the term bidding purposes? Does it mean that the Encore pilot will use his Encore Date of Hire for placement on the WPSL/PSL? If it does, this is a poor way to state it. One does not "bid" to be placed on a seniority list. One is normally placed on a seniority list, absent a merger imposed seniority list integration, by something such as date of hire according to the procedure in the CBA.
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sarg
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Re: Sunwing/Westjet

Post by sarg »

ALPApolicy wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:51 am
imjustlurking wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:43 amIf it goes to arbitration, an arbitrator will see an agreement signed that has the clear intent to slot pilots in to the WJ/WO list as specified in the PTA. It was ratified by vote.
I can find no legal underpinning to your argument. Has someone in your MEC or at Encore told you this is the case?
To add to John's comments an arbitrator will get to see that the first PTA vote failed, it was only after the water was muddied by the inclusion of a replacement plan for options did the vote pass.

I voted no to both versions of the PTA for exactly this reason, it's messy. Regardless of how the arbitrator rules someone is going to be pissed off. My guess, as I've already stated in another posting, is DOH with fences excluding all Encore pilots not already flying the jet.

The PTA will be thrown out as written and will require a new vote, if anyone has the stomach for, which given a 64% pass on the second vote with money attached will most likely fail. That doesn't mean that WJ can't flow from Encore, just that they go to BOTL, no different than Jazz pilots going to Air Canada.
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