Commuting at Jazz

[AstroPants]

Hi All,

I've searched the forums, seems to be some stuff laced throughout - but just wanted to try and get some consolidated info.

Is Commuting at Jazz worth it/realistic? I live 1 hop from YUL on a Jazz operated route. I get the basing lottery, and other associated caveats. Does the schedule of a new hire include a lot of sitting reserve? What does an average monthly sked look like in the first year or two?

Appreciate any responses, especially from those living it.

[KenoraPilot]

Hi All,

I've searched the forums, seems to be some stuff laced throughout - but just wanted to try and get some consolidated info.

Is Commuting at Jazz worth it/realistic? I live 1 hop from YUL on a Jazz operated route. I get the basing lottery, and other associated caveats. Does the schedule of a new hire include a lot of sitting reserve? What does an average monthly sked look like in the first year or two?

Appreciate any responses, especially from those living it.

Lots of commuters at Jazz. Is it worth it.....depends on your personal situation really. I commute from YEG to YYC and I drive it 99.9% of the time. I commuted YEG to YVR for the first 7 months at Jazz and it cost me a lot of time and money and I could not keep that up long term for RSV. For pairings its a bit more feasible, but still not pleasant.

When you start it will depend on what base and type you get if you get heavy RSV or pairing quickly. Also depends how much hiring will be done behind you and on what type/base. Starting RSV is usually min 18 days a month with your Min 12 days off. Once you hit the blocking avg for the month (if you actually fly the 77.5-82.5 hours in the month) you can drop remaining RSV days.

Basic initial training you will be flown from your "home" to training and back. But once you start Line in Doc you'll be on your own. Commuting with WJ is decently cheap and you have access to AC jumpseat as well. We now have FOSAP which means if you take the actual jumpseat in the Jazz plane you commute for Free (based on Seniority).

1 hop from YUL isn't terrible for a YUL/YYZ commute as there is high frequency. Are you able to drive from your home to YUL?

Getting YUL is a crap shoot based on your type you get. Right now YUL has a large RJ, EMB and Q fleet, but that can always change.

[Hysteria]

Hi All,

I've searched the forums, seems to be some stuff laced throughout - but just wanted to try and get some consolidated info.

Is Commuting at Jazz worth it/realistic? I live 1 hop from YUL on a Jazz operated route. I get the basing lottery, and other associated caveats. Does the schedule of a new hire include a lot of sitting reserve? What does an average monthly sked look like in the first year or two?

Appreciate any responses, especially from those living it.

Lots of commuters at Jazz. Is it worth it.....depends on your personal situation really. I commute from YEG to YYC and I drive it 99.9% of the time. I commuted YEG to YVR for the first 7 months at Jazz and it cost me a lot of time and money and I could not keep that up long term for RSV. For pairings its a bit more feasible, but still not pleasant.

When you start it will depend on what base and type you get if you get heavy RSV or pairing quickly. Also depends how much hiring will be done behind you and on what type/base. Starting RSV is usually min 18 days a month with your Min 12 days off. Once you hit the blocking avg for the month (if you actually fly the 77.5-82.5 hours in the month) you can drop remaining RSV days.

Basic initial training you will be flown from your "home" to training and back. But once you start Line in Doc you'll be on your own. Commuting with WJ is decently cheap and you have access to AC jumpseat as well. We now have FOSAP which means if you take the actual jumpseat in the Jazz plane you commute for Free (based on Seniority).

1 hop from YUL isn't terrible for a YUL/YYZ commute as there is high frequency. Are you able to drive from your home to YUL?

Getting YUL is a crap shoot based on your type you get. Right now YUL has a large RJ, EMB and Q fleet, but that can always change.

For you, why is such that YEG to YYC is more affordable or viable than YEG to YVR? Driving was better than flying as a commute? and did you still have to pay for a crash pad in calgary or would you drive in the same day as your pairings?

[Atlantic.Salmon]

New hire here: so far after line indoc my schedule is nearly 100% reserve. Not sure how long it will last but you can probably bank on the first few months needing to be close to base, at least. I bit the bullet and moved to YYC to avoid commuting - fortunately, my situation allowed for that.

Home for me is YHZ so I’ll likely commute in the future but I’m personally holding off until I make more coin/have more control over my schedule. Hearing from classmates who’ve started commuting say it’s an expensive pain in the ass.

[QKZXKV]

I never recommend commuting. I did it as a new hire FO and as a Jr CA. Commuting for RSV is preposterous and a money pit. You don't fly, you don't get per diems, and even with the pay "raise" (more donation to Trudeau's pocket), you still will spend more than you make. It's a miserable existence. I wish I could go back to my dumb younger self and make the decision I made later, sooner.

[Me262]

So being Rezerve. Don't you still get the 80 MMG? So isn't Jazz incentive to fly you as often as possible to at least 80hrs? Otherwise you get paid without working, but staying on standby as reserve?

[Turboprops]

So being Rezerve. Don't you still get the 80 MMG? So isn't Jazz incentive to fly you as often as possible to at least 80hrs? Otherwise you get paid without working, but staying on standby as reserve?

Yes you get paid the blocking average
But since your wage is such a little percentage of the whole cost model, they’d rather pay a year 1 FO $200 to sit at home just so they don’t cancel a flight later in the day.
You also have less days off on reserve.
The airlines got this figured out and they’re not blindly just paying you to sit at home.

[Outlaw58]

So being Rezerve. Don't you still get the 80 MMG? So isn't Jazz incentive to fly you as often as possible to at least 80hrs? Otherwise you get paid without working, but staying on standby as reserve?

Yes you get paid the blocking average
But since your wage is such a little percentage of the whole cost model, they’d rather pay a year 1 FO $200 to sit at home just so they don’t cancel a flight later in the day.
You also have less days off on reserve.
The airlines got this figured out and they’re not blindly just paying you to sit at home.

Not 100% accurate. On reserve you get 12 days off regardless.

As a blockholder, you MAY be able to increase that number with productive pairing bidding but until you are senior enough to get those pairings awarded to you, you still won't get more than 12 days.

58

[rudder]

So being Rezerve. Don't you still get the 80 MMG? So isn't Jazz incentive to fly you as often as possible to at least 80hrs? Otherwise you get paid without working, but staying on standby as reserve?

Yes you get paid the blocking average
But since your wage is such a little percentage of the whole cost model, they’d rather pay a year 1 FO $200 to sit at home just so they don’t cancel a flight later in the day.
You also have less days off on reserve.
The airlines got this figured out and they’re not blindly just paying you to sit at home.

Not 100% accurate. On reserve you get 12 days off regardless.

As a blockholder, you MAY be able to increase that number with productive pairing bidding but until you are senior enough to get those pairings awarded to you, you still won't get more than 12 days.

58

The Jazz flying has devolved in to some of the least efficient combinations. At an average credit of 5.0 (or less) per day and expanded block windows, even most block holders will require 16-17 work days per month (absent vacation).

Commuting to that kind of schedule is insanity.

[Rowdy]

Yes you get paid the blocking average
But since your wage is such a little percentage of the whole cost model, they’d rather pay a year 1 FO $200 to sit at home just so they don’t cancel a flight later in the day.
You also have less days off on reserve.
The airlines got this figured out and they’re not blindly just paying you to sit at home.

Not 100% accurate. On reserve you get 12 days off regardless.

As a blockholder, you MAY be able to increase that number with productive pairing bidding but until you are senior enough to get those pairings awarded to you, you still won't get more than 12 days.

58

The Jazz flying has devolved in to some of the least efficient combinations. At an average credit of 5.0 (or less) per day and expanded block windows, even most block holders will require 16-17 work days per month (absent vacation).

Commuting to that kind of schedule is insanity.

I'm in the top 1/2 of a roster and still end up scheduled 18 days a month (pairings). A couple of 19 day months when we get 31 days...

Incredibly inefficient as a result of 1) FTDT BS 2) lack of crews 3) reduced flight schedule from AC

I rarely see pairings (3 and 4 days) that are at 5 or more credits now. Average 4 day is 19hrs. Used to be 22-23hrs with some of the better ones being 24-25ish.

This is ANOTHER reason people are leaving. Low pay. Big months.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Not 100% accurate. On reserve you get 12 days off regardless.

As a blockholder, you MAY be able to increase that number with productive pairing bidding but until you are senior enough to get those pairings awarded to you, you still won't get more than 12 days.

58

The Jazz flying has devolved in to some of the least efficient combinations. At an average credit of 5.0 (or less) per day and expanded block windows, even most block holders will require 16-17 work days per month (absent vacation).

Commuting to that kind of schedule is insanity.

I'm in the top 1/2 of a roster and still end up scheduled 18 days a month (pairings). A couple of 19 day months when we get 31 days...

Incredibly inefficient as a result of 1) FTDT BS 2) lack of crews 3) reduced flight schedule from AC

I rarely see pairings (3 and 4 days) that are at 5 or more credits now. Average 4 day is 19hrs. Used to be 22-23hrs with some of the better ones being 24-25ish.

This is ANOTHER reason people are leaving. Low pay. Big months.

And this may be the future at jazz for quite some time. If you commute, there may be better options than jazz. Like flying a king air in northern Manitoba. 1 week on, 1 week off. Starts at 100k+$ year. I hear some smaller operators even fly you in at their own cost from wherever you live, although this is unconfirmed and passed thru the telephone game at least 3 times.

[cdnavater]

The Jazz flying has devolved in to some of the least efficient combinations. At an average credit of 5.0 (or less) per day and expanded block windows, even most block holders will require 16-17 work days per month (absent vacation).

Commuting to that kind of schedule is insanity.

I'm in the top 1/2 of a roster and still end up scheduled 18 days a month (pairings). A couple of 19 day months when we get 31 days...

Incredibly inefficient as a result of 1) FTDT BS 2) lack of crews 3) reduced flight schedule from AC

I rarely see pairings (3 and 4 days) that are at 5 or more credits now. Average 4 day is 19hrs. Used to be 22-23hrs with some of the better ones being 24-25ish.

This is ANOTHER reason people are leaving. Low pay. Big months.

And this may be the future at jazz for quite some time. If you commute, there may be better options than jazz. Like flying a king air in northern Manitoba. 1 week on, 1 week off. Starts at 100k+$ year. I hear some smaller operators even fly you in at their own cost from wherever you live, although this is unconfirmed and passed thru the telephone game at least 3 times.

King air in Northern Manitoba is a better option than Jazz, piss off!
There’s a reason that I was training a Sky North medevac pilot a few months back, he was making 230g and still chose Jazz.
At the end of the month you’re still flying an irregular schedule and they still do the good until but refreshed at bullshit.
There are better options than Jazz, king air up north is not one of them, you realize your week on is actually 8 on 6 off when you factor most want you up the night before, you’re still working 16-17 days per month with a true 7 on 7 off, worse if you head up the day before.
As for commuting, that can certainly be difficult and certainly worse early on but not impossible but if you don’t have to, ie; can move, it would be better to do that.
With the new pay, most can afford rent and the name brand KD now even in the brutally expensive cites our bases are.

[Inverted2]

Yes you get paid the blocking average
But since your wage is such a little percentage of the whole cost model, they’d rather pay a year 1 FO $200 to sit at home just so they don’t cancel a flight later in the day.
You also have less days off on reserve.
The airlines got this figured out and they’re not blindly just paying you to sit at home.

Not 100% accurate. On reserve you get 12 days off regardless.

As a blockholder, you MAY be able to increase that number with productive pairing bidding but until you are senior enough to get those pairings awarded to you, you still won't get more than 12 days.

58

The Jazz flying has devolved in to some of the least efficient combinations. At an average credit of 5.0 (or less) per day and expanded block windows, even most block holders will require 16-17 work days per month (absent vacation).

Commuting to that kind of schedule is insanity.

That’s why I voted NO to the recent contract. They can schedule us at 87.5 hrs all the time now and with the garbage pairings, even if you’re senior you could be working 18-19 days per month. It’s demoralizing and fatiguing. That extra $$$ does little benefit if you’re working more days and spending your days off resting.

[cdnavater]

Not 100% accurate. On reserve you get 12 days off regardless.

As a blockholder, you MAY be able to increase that number with productive pairing bidding but until you are senior enough to get those pairings awarded to you, you still won't get more than 12 days.

58

The Jazz flying has devolved in to some of the least efficient combinations. At an average credit of 5.0 (or less) per day and expanded block windows, even most block holders will require 16-17 work days per month (absent vacation).

Commuting to that kind of schedule is insanity.

That’s why I voted NO to the recent contract. They can schedule us at 87.5 hrs all the time now and with the garbage pairings, even if you’re senior you could be working 18-19 days per month. It’s demoralizing and fatiguing. That extra $$$ does little benefit if you’re working more days and spending your days off resting.

Damn good thing for all that sick time, a fatigue book off doesn’t count if you file a fatigue SMS. Honestly, if I had to fly that many days I’d be using sick time on all the months I don’t have vacation, like you said, fatiguing and demoralizing.
I’m not sure why this wasn’t a fix, was it not in the survey? If the min credit was higher they would find a way to fix the pairings!

[Me262]

The Jazz flying has devolved in to some of the least efficient combinations. At an average credit of 5.0 (or less) per day and expanded block windows, even most block holders will require 16-17 work days per month (absent vacation).

Commuting to that kind of schedule is insanity.

That’s why I voted NO to the recent contract. They can schedule us at 87.5 hrs all the time now and with the garbage pairings, even if you’re senior you could be working 18-19 days per month. It’s demoralizing and fatiguing. That extra $$$ does little benefit if you’re working more days and spending your days off resting.

Damn good thing for all that sick time, a fatigue book off doesn’t count if you file a fatigue SMS. Honestly, if I had to fly that many days I’d be using sick time on all the months I don’t have vacation, like you said, fatiguing and demoralizing.
I’m not sure why this wasn’t a fix, was it not in the survey? If the min credit was higher they would find a way to fix the pairings!

How exactly does taking sick day work? Do you need to be un-grounded by a MO?

[Turboprops]

So being Rezerve. Don't you still get the 80 MMG? So isn't Jazz incentive to fly you as often as possible to at least 80hrs? Otherwise you get paid without working, but staying on standby as reserve?

Yes you get paid the blocking average
But since your wage is such a little percentage of the whole cost model, they’d rather pay a year 1 FO $200 to sit at home just so they don’t cancel a flight later in the day.
You also have less days off on reserve.
The airlines got this figured out and they’re not blindly just paying you to sit at home.

Not 100% accurate. On reserve you get 12 days off regardless.

As a blockholder, you MAY be able to increase that number with productive pairing bidding but until you are senior enough to get those pairings awarded to you, you still won't get more than 12 days.

58

Well I was very Junior (ie last guy that held a block in May) before I quit, I had 14 days off.
I was just saying you’re guaranteed min days off on reserve, but you’ll average more than 12 days off per month if you hold a block.

[Turboprops]

There’s a reason that I was training a Sky North medevac pilot a few months back, he was making 230g and still chose Jazz.

I think I know exactly who you’re talking about, unless there has been 2 ex skynorth pilots that made that much and both came to Jazz.
Anyway, this person came because the 60% flow was getting him to AC in 10 months instead of 2+ years, he regrets it so badly like everyone that came to Jazz with experience.
Sorry, but Jazz was the biggest mistake we’ve made in our career

[Me262]

There’s a reason that I was training a Sky North medevac pilot a few months back, he was making 230g and still chose Jazz.

I think I know exactly who you’re talking about, unless there has been 2 ex skynorth pilots that made that much and both came to Jazz.
Anyway, this person came because the 60% flow was getting him to AC in 10 months instead of 2+ years, he regrets it so badly like everyone that came to Jazz with experience.
Sorry, but Jazz was the biggest mistake we’ve made in our career

why 2+ years? If he had the minimums, hiring takes 3-6 months at AC proper no?

[yowflyer23]

How long does it take to hold a block in YYZ/YUL right now? And when you're on reserve, are you often sent on multi-day pairings when they call you and can you expect anything for per diems? Trying to get an idea of how commutable YOW could be on reserve. It's a 1hr50 drive to Dorval, which I think is within the call out time and it wouldn't be so bad if it were for four day pairings. Doing that drive 18 days a month to cover random flights would not be worth it at all though and I'd probably bite the bullet and move to the base. YYZ sounds like it would be even more of a challenge.

[Turboprops]

There’s a reason that I was training a Sky North medevac pilot a few months back, he was making 230g and still chose Jazz.

I think I know exactly who you’re talking about, unless there has been 2 ex skynorth pilots that made that much and both came to Jazz.
Anyway, this person came because the 60% flow was getting him to AC in 10 months instead of 2+ years, he regrets it so badly like everyone that came to Jazz with experience.
Sorry, but Jazz was the biggest mistake we’ve made in our career

why 2+ years? If he had the minimums, hiring takes 3-6 months at AC proper no?

Well I guess you haven’t been following the whole flow mess at Jazz?
AC wants Jazz pilots to stay at Jazz for minimum of 2 years, although that is nowhere written in the contract, AC does whatever they want