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ALPApolicy
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Post by ALPApolicy »

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rudder
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by rudder »

ALPApolicy wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:06 pm I asked our MEC vice-Chair today a simple question:

Will the Merger Committee represent the members of the WSW/WJA bargaining unit and only the members of the WSW/WJA bargaining unit is merger talks with SWG pilots should common employer be sought and declared between SWG and WSW/WJA?

Silence.

I have asked several times where the Pilot Seniority List (PSL) that was created by the CBA and not extinguished by the PTA.

Silence.

The MEC (and the ALPA President) violated the ALPA Constitution in not respecting ALPA BOD policy regarding Seniority List construction in the non-DOH created by the CBA.

The MEC (and the ALPA President) violated the ALPA Constitution in not respecting ALPA BOD policy regarding Seniority List construction by negotiating the Pilot Transfer Agreement (PTA) and bribing WSW/WJA pilots with a monetary in order to have WSW/WJA pilots pass the deal on the second try.

It is clear that should SWG pilots be merged into the WSW/WJA bargaining unit, ALPA will try to enforce or renegotiate the PTA to give seniority to non-bargaining units ahead of dues paying bargaining unit members.

Many history is an open book. All I asked of ALPA is that it respect its own rules. They refused to do so and show no intentions of doing so.

We need ACPA's help. Contact your friends. Find out how we join them and make a truly national made in Canada pilot's union and

MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

ALPA has done a wonderful job representing Encore pilots as they sold out the seniority of WSW/WJA.

Let us draw a line in the sand and declare to ALPA:

THIS FAR AND NO FARTHER!!!

Our organizing anthem: https://youtu.be/gLYNL5juSh0

Captain John Swallow
Chairman of the
Join ACPA Organizing Committee at WestJet/Swoop
March 12, 2022

Wow! If any of that is true, then you should file DFR charges IMMEDIATELY!

Good luck. I am sure there are lots of lawyers willing to take your $$.

p.s. just so there is no confusion - that was sarcasm.
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Mach1
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by Mach1 »

rudder wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:47 am Wow! If any of that is true, then you should file DFR charges IMMEDIATELY!

Good luck. I am sure there are lots of lawyers willing to take your $$.

p.s. just so there is no confusion - that was sarcasm.
Oh no, it is absolutely true. There are lots of lawyers willing to take his money. Lawyers are always very generous people in that way.
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I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
ALPApolicy
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by ALPApolicy »

I believe "Woodley" is the case you want to look at to confirm the 90 day window with the CIRB. I am going flying now so I will confirm this from the beach in PVR.

John Swallow
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by co-joe »

ACPA wants to represent Westjet? What?
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ALPApolicy
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by ALPApolicy »

co-joe wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:56 pm ACPA wants to represent Westjet? What?
No. Some of us want ACPA to represent us. There's really no change. We aready have the committee structure in place, and the people. We just want a union that will defend the seniority of its members. ALPA sold the seniority of some of our members and continues to do so. It is a great union if you're a regional airline pilot in Canada.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by ALPApolicy »

rudder, here is the case. From the excerpt below, you can see how the 90 day window applies to DFR claims. The intent is to give finality to labour relations matter and not let them linger, like a badly composed seniority list. I did what I thought appropriate 4 years ago in educating pilots about the duty that ALPA owed to members in terms of seniority but I wasn't going to go around and force OTS pilots whose rights were tramples on to do something. It was up to them. They had 90 days to file a DFR complaint when we received the CBA with the non-DOH sneiority list and then again with the PTA. I am not sure if a DFR would have succeeded. Perhaps a Breach of Contract action had more legs. Who knows?


4 ALPA submits that the filing of the complaint on June 11, 1997 exceeds the 90-day time limit set out in section 97(2) since the complainants were well aware of all the events giving rise to their complaint no later than February 15, 1997, the date of ratification of the collective agreement.
31 Therefore, by their own admission, the complainants were informed of the existence of the Quebec Accord as early as November 1996. This fact on its own makes any complaint clearly untimely. In order to bring this part of the complaint within the confines of the 90-day requirement, the complainants have linked it to the CRA pilots’ seniority and transfer rights negotiated in the 1997 collective agreement and ultimately to the filing of grievances in March 1997.
36 According to the Board, events that eventually led to the implementation of the Quebec Accord were but ancillary to the original disagreement. Without judging the merits of such a complaint, to the extent that the complainants contemplated the possibility of disputing the content of the Quebec Accord before the Board, they had the obligation of filing a complaint within 90 days of becoming aware of the event and of providing an explanation as to why subsequent events enlarged the time limit for filing the complaint. This the complainants have failed to do.
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TFTMB heavy
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by TFTMB heavy »

ALPApolicy wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:03 pm
co-joe wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:56 pm ACPA wants to represent Westjet? What?
No. Some of us want ACPA to represent us. There's really no change. We aready have the committee structure in place, and the people. We just want a union that will defend the seniority of its members. ALPA sold the seniority of some of our members and continues to do so. It is a great union if you're a regional airline pilot in Canada.
You representation will always only be as strong as your representatives, nothing to do with the banner they work under. Maybe they were misguided or maybe they didn't listen to the advice, I wasn't there so I have no idea.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by ALPApolicy »

The DFR might be different in the USA, but the requirements that union actions be free from discriminatory, arbitrary, or bad faith actions. I thought that giving all union members based on the same principle, date of hire, was a simple a fair rule. When ALPA gave preferred seniority to other members, that struck me as a wrong. When you consider that the practice had its genesis in an attempt by the Employer to avoid paying fair wages to employees, it seems very wrong. Then add in a union who certified a group, had a policy specifically mandating a DOH seniority list and they went and collaborated with the Employer to injure members of its own bargaining unit for NO VALID LABOUR RELATIONS PURPOSE and I believe the perfect situaiton existed for a DFR attempt.

From the America West/USAir merger, some commentary here.
IV. ANALYSIS
43 Arbitrariness under a claim concerning a seniority list is found when a union organizes the seniority list with the sole intent to advance one
group over another.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by ALPApolicy »

TFTMB heavy wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:24 pmYou representation will always only be as strong as your representatives, nothing to do with the banner they work under. Maybe they were misguided or maybe they didn't listen to the advice, I wasn't there so I have no idea.
Agreed. The problem now is that ALPA represents both the pilots in the Encore bargaining unit and the pilots in the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit. ALPA was the one who collaborated with the Employer to advance one group over another for no valid labour relations purpose (that I can see). ALPA has a clear policy on how to construct seniority lists and a Constitution that clearly states that the MEC and the President of the Association had a duty to implement and further that policy. The policy said that ALPA would use every menas at its command to implement seniority list based on date of hire in order to avoid controversy in the event of mergers/acquisitions etc. Guess where we are now?

How does ALPA get back to the place of representing the members of the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit and only the members of the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit in matters of seniority such as a seniority list merger with SunWing?
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by TFTMB heavy »

ALPApolicy wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:33 pm
TFTMB heavy wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:24 pmYou representation will always only be as strong as your representatives, nothing to do with the banner they work under. Maybe they were misguided or maybe they didn't listen to the advice, I wasn't there so I have no idea.
Agreed. The problem now is that ALPA represents both the pilots in the Encore bargaining unit and the pilots in the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit. ALPA was the one who collaborated with the Employer to advance one group over another for no valid labour relations purpose (that I can see). ALPA has a clear policy on how to construct seniority lists and a Constitution that clearly states that the MEC and the President of the Association had a duty to implement and further that policy. The policy said that ALPA would use every menas at its command to implement seniority list based on date of hire in order to avoid controversy in the event of mergers/acquisitions etc. Guess where we are now?

How does ALPA get back to the place of representing the members of the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit and only the members of the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit in matters of seniority such as a seniority list merger with SunWing?
Good question and I do not have the answer for you. What I'm pretty confident telling you is that bringing all of this up on a public forum will not help you get on the merger comity to try and fix it. Best of luck and good job on all of the research time you're putting into this.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by ALPApolicy »

TFTMB heavy wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:51 pmGood question and I do not have the answer for you. What I'm pretty confident telling you is that bringing all of this up on a public forum will not help you get on the merger comity to try and fix it. Best of luck and good job on all of the research time you're putting into this.
I think the odds of me getting on that committee were slim. The people who make those decisions are the ones who made the decisions or supported the decisions to attack seniority rights of some members.

I will cease all attempts at engouraging a union raid if:

1) The PTA is cancelled.
2) The members of the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit are supplied with their contractually mandated seniority list.
3) The merger committee represents the members of the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit and only those members, should we have to merge with SWG pilots.
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by TFTMB heavy »

ALPApolicy wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:57 pm
TFTMB heavy wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:51 pmGood question and I do not have the answer for you. What I'm pretty confident telling you is that bringing all of this up on a public forum will not help you get on the merger comity to try and fix it. Best of luck and good job on all of the research time you're putting into this.
I think the odds of me getting on that committee were slim. The people who make those decisions are the ones who made the decisions or supported the decisions to attack seniority rights of some members.

I will cease all attempts at engouraging a union raid if:

1) The PTA is cancelled.
2) The members of the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit are supplied with their contractually mandated seniority list.
3) The merger committee represents the members of the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit and only those members, should we have top merge with SWG pilots.
Like I said, best of luck.
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imjustlurking
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by imjustlurking »

ALPApolicy wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:06 pm ALPA has done a wonderful job representing Encore pilots as they sold out the seniority of WSW/WJA.
So you are okay with pilots from a company that is not and never has contributed to the success of the WestJet group getting seniority, but you are against a vital part of the WestJet group keeping seniority?
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by elite »

ALPApolicy wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:57 pm ….
I will cease all attempts at engouraging a union raid if:

1) The PTA is cancelled.
2) The members of the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit are supplied with their contractually mandated seniority list.
3) The merger committee represents the members of the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit and only those members, should we have top merge with SWG pilots.
Why do you suppose a sizeable group of pilots (or at least a more vocal group) at WestJet are seemingly more concerned with conditions at Encore than they are at their own airline? Is it a brotherly love, is it that they have friends and relatives there, or do they believe that it would protect their own jobs? The best way to do that however, which is standard in the industry, is through strong negotiated scope clauses, not buying loyalty in exchange for reserved seniority.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by ALPApolicy »

imjustlurking wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:43 pm
ALPApolicy wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:06 pm ALPA has done a wonderful job representing Encore pilots as they sold out the seniority of WSW/WJA.
So you are okay with pilots from a company that is not and never has contributed to the success of the WestJet group getting seniority, but you are against a vital part of the WestJet group keeping seniority?
"Keeping seniority?"

What seniority are you talking about? I haven't seen the seniority list for my bargaining unit yet so I don't know who has seniority in my bargaining unit AND in what order they have it.

That's how completely f---ed up our situation here is. We don't even have a seniority list to discuss.

YAY ALPA!

As far as your emotional plea, I get it. You were promised something you should never have been promised: a position on another bargaining unit's seniority list. You were promised this in lieu of paying sufficient wages (and other perks) in order to attract you in keeping with industry standard.

I will remind you, a rallying cry of many on the Organizing Committee trying to get WJA pilots to sign an ALPA card was "INDUSTRY STANDARD!"

I don't have ANYTHING against anyone personally. This argument is solely about legal responsibilities of labour unions.
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by imjustlurking »

ALPApolicy wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:59 pm
imjustlurking wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:43 pm
ALPApolicy wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:06 pm ALPA has done a wonderful job representing Encore pilots as they sold out the seniority of WSW/WJA.
So you are okay with pilots from a company that is not and never has contributed to the success of the WestJet group getting seniority, but you are against a vital part of the WestJet group keeping seniority?
"Keeping seniority?"

What seniority are you talking about? I haven't seen the seniority list for my bargaining unit yet so I don't know who has seniority in my bargaining unit AND in what order they have it.

That's how completely f---ed up our situation here is. We don't even have a seniority list to discuss.

YAY ALPA!

As far as your emotional plea, I get it. You were promised something you should never have been promised: a position on another bargaining unit's seniority list. You were promised this in lieu of paying sufficient wages (and other perks) in order to attract you in keeping with industry standard.

I will remind you, a rallying cry of many on the Organizing Committee trying to get WJA pilots to sign an ALPA card was "INDUSTRY STANDARD!"

I don't have ANYTHING against anyone personally. This argument is solely about legal responsibilities of labour unions.
It's quite easy to figure out where one stands on the WR/WS list by looking at the 'one list' and ignoring any WR pilots. As far as I am aware, there are no more bump downs at Encore anymore.

In terms of an WR pilot having a seniority number that continues with them to WS/WO, it was not unilaterally given by the company or the union. There was an agreement that was made and, correct me if I am wrong, ratified through vote.
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by ALPApolicy »

elite wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:03 pm Why do you suppose a sizeable group of pilots (or at least a more vocal group) at WestJet are seemingly more concerned with conditions at Encore than they are at their own airline? Is it a brotherly love, is it that they have friends and relatives there, or do they believe that it would protect their own jobs? The best way to do that however, which is standard in the industry, is through strong negotiated scope clauses, not buying loyalty in exchange for reserved seniority.
One theory is that some members of a group (WPPA) that preceded ALPA in attempting to certify WJA pilots had this planned back in 2014. The speaker who speaks in the beginning of this clip and discusses a westjet pilot as being a pilot who flies a dash-8 or a 747. This speaker had a younger brother flying at Q400 @Encore. He would later become our first MEC Chair when the non-DOH seniority list was attached to the CBA.

https://youtu.be/CbwfwhL4nfo?t=3951

This screenshot is from the WPPA's newsletter in early 2015 where they discuss their (misguided) belief that common employer exists as a remedy between WJA and WEN. The current WSW/WJA vice-Chair has frequently (as recently as within the last two weeks) discussed common employer as a potential remedy between WJA and WEN. He was a prominent founding member of the WPPA.
Screenshot_20220308-162848_Gmail.jpg
Screenshot_20220308-162848_Gmail.jpg (823.56 KiB) Viewed 2981 times
I was sent the following by a friend. I don’t know much about scope issues, but he says:
...You could remind him that we went into negotiations on contract 1 with a veto on any ULCC which was requested at 10 old lease-return planes. Walked out with 30 ULCC including new max and high lift NG. Also 100 RJ if desired by WJ got operations, leverage or any other purpose. (RJ can go where no WJ pilot can follow)

Worst scope in history of major airlines: 130 jets in an airline with what-130 jets?
I am unsure of the validity of his points.
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by ALPApolicy »

imjustlurking wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:14 pm It's quite easy to figure out where one stands on the WR/WS list by looking at the 'one list' and ignoring any WR pilots. As far as I am aware, there are no more bump downs at Encore anymore.
Firstly, I am unwilling to take your word or the Company's word or ALPA's word on things. I don’t trust people who tell me, "...don't bother looking, just trust me!"

Secondly, how do you know what the order is of the bargaining unit seniority list for pilots who flowed from Encore? Have you read our CBA? In it, you will find a description of our Pilot Seniority List (WPSL/PSL). I would remind you that the PTA makes one and only one reference to the PSL. The PTA does not revise the description of the PSL, nor does it extinguish the PSL. The PTA doesn't say what to do to create a successor to the PTA-generated transfer list misleadingly called the "Seniority List" in the event of PTA cancelation.

We are supposed to believe that the framers of the PTA (presumably ably assisted on both ALPA and Company side by competent legal advisors) planned for a possible cancelation of the PTA but somehow forgot to tell the parties to the agreement where to place new hire pilots?

That defies belief. Even for a group so woefully negligent as ALPA has been with respect to the seniority rights of its members at WSW and WJA.

The PSL exists. The Company and ALPA just have to publish it so that the members can verify their position on it (as described by the CBA's seniority list provisions) as well as their personal information on it (like Date of Hire at WSW or WJA).
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Re: MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

Post by ALPApolicy »

imjustlurking wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:14 pmIn terms of an WR pilot having a seniority number that continues with them to WS/WO, it was not unilaterally given by the company or the union. There was an agreement that was made and, correct me if I am wrong, ratified through vote.
I do not believe that the transfer list posing as a seniority list can replace the contractually issued seniority in the CBA, especially when the PTA makes one and only one reference to the PSL, stating that the PSL is to be used for the creation of the first quote seniority list unquote.

Additionally, should "we" actually merge bargaining units with SWG pilots, the "we" I just stated would likely be the WSW/WJA bargaining unit members. I fail to see how it is not the height of absurdity to believe that our bargaining units would merge and then negotiate in order to agree on a merged seniority list and possibly fail only to proceed to Arbitration and the Arbitrator would examine all of the Code mandated factors in order to achieve a result that represents neither a windfall gain nor an unfair result to either side and is in keeping with the principles of the Code and promotes good labour relations and then the minute his Award is published, the Encore pilots begin playing a game of CHICKEN BINGO with the resultant merged seniority list.

See CHICKEN BINGO here.

If the SWG pilots and SWG signed a PTA style agreement today, do you think a single WestJet pilot would let members of their "Encore" land a spot anywhere other than the BOTL on a merged seniority list once they were actually hired at WJA?

Perhaps I am completely wrong. SWG pilots are nice men and women. Perhaps they don't care where you go on a seniority list that they are members of. Perhaps they just want the agreement that ALPA and WJA signed to be honoured.
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