https://youtu.be/PlIRzyW-azM

[imjustlurking]

Why do you suppose a sizeable group of pilots (or at least a more vocal group) at WestJet are seemingly more concerned with conditions at Encore than they are at their own airline? Is it a brotherly love, is it that they have friends and relatives there, or do they believe that it would protect their own jobs? The best way to do that however, which is standard in the industry, is through strong negotiated scope clauses, not buying loyalty in exchange for reserved seniority.

One theory is that some members of a group (WPPA) that preceded ALPA in attempting to certify WJA pilots had this planned back in 2014. The speaker who speaks in the beginning of this clip and discusses a westjet pilot as being a pilot who flies a dash-8 or a 747. This speaker had a younger brother flying at Q400 @Encore. He would later become our first MEC Chair when the non-DOH seniority list was attached to the CBA.

Well, that may sound like a noble idea, provided everyone does it, otherwise the group that does it, does it to its own detriment. It can’t work in isolation because it does not value experience. But most importantly it doesn’t work in the context of separate companies and separate bargaining units, as plainly obvious!

Which is why I don't understand how Encore is considered a separate entity.

If Swoop and WestJet are a common employer, Encore should definitely be a common employer with WestJet.

[elite]

Having separate regionals is standard in the industry because it adds flexibility while operating at different cost structures. They can also be sold, with long term CPAs attached, to improve cash positions. For these and other reasons, no airline operates their regional(s) in house with the mainline.

And it is ok and can work well for the pilots as well, provided they understand it and work within its confines. For instance, after a long battle at Air Canada, it seems to have finally brought things under control, sometimes even merging its regionals, so it can work. And it hires great number of its pilots from its regionals.

Encore should do the same. Abandon the PTA which is only an obstacle for it to achieve industry standard, if not leading, compensation. And also establish meaningful flow arrangement to WestJet/Swoop. That serves its pilot group better, as opposed to a side deal for seniority over pilots at another airline without actually being there and building experience and YOS.

[ALPApolicy]

One theory is that some members of a group (WPPA) that preceded ALPA in attempting to certify WJA pilots had this planned back in 2014. The speaker who speaks in the beginning of this clip and discusses a westjet pilot as being a pilot who flies a dash-8 or a 747. This speaker had a younger brother flying at Q400 @Encore. He would later become our first MEC Chair when the non-DOH seniority list was attached to the CBA.

Well, that may sound like a noble idea, provided everyone does it, otherwise the group that does it, does it to its own detriment. It can’t work in isolation because it does not value experience. But most importantly it doesn’t work in the context of separate companies and separate bargaining units, as plainly obvious!

Which is why I don't understand how Encore is considered a separate entity.

If Swoop and WestJet are a common employer, Encore should definitely be a common employer with WestJet.

Lurk, in the common employer decision by the CIRB to deny common employer between Air Canada and its wholly owned regional airlines in 2000, the Board said that all of the five required factors were present in order to make a common employer declaration between the companies, but they declined to make the declaration as, in their words, there was no labour relations purpose to do so.

Between WestJet and Encore, the same situation likely exists: all five required factors are present but there would be no labour relations purpose to do so.

There is no evidence that I am aware of that shows a loss of bargaining rights or bargained rights to either Encore or WestJet pilots. There is also no evidence of a loss of jobs from one company to the other.

Moreover, twice ALPA approached the CIRB in the last five years and said that they thought separate bargaining units was the best set up at WestJet and Encore. Since that time, both WJA and WEN have been able to negotiate CBA's, they have a functioning grievance system in place, and there has been labour peace.

The Board won't lightly dismantle the system ALPA wanted when it works.

[aerobod]

Having separate regionals is standard in the industry because it adds flexibility while operating at different cost structures. They can also be sold, with long term CPAs attached, to improve cash positions. For these and other reasons, no airline operates their regional(s) in house with the mainline.

At the corporate level Encore and Swoop were designed from the beginning to be as easy to separate from mainline as possible to be sold as separate entities in the future if market conditions dictated, I think this was always evident in any investor presentations. The corporate structures, processes, IT systems and separate operating certificates are all designed around this possibility. I'm sure Onex won't want to change that philosophy in the future.

[elite]

It’s still a possibility to merge Swoop with Sunwing, much better fit, and operate it at arm’s length. Or sell Encore or merge it with another carrier with a long term CPA, that will begin to unlock some value.

[ALPApolicy]

It’s still a possibility to merge Swoop with Sunwing, much better fit, and operate it at arm’s length. Or sell Encore or merge it with another carrier with a long term CPA, that will begin to unlock some value.

My head just exploded.

I hadn’t thought about that. That makes perfect sense. Merge SWG/WSW and remove the voluntarily declared common employer with WestJet.

Thank you always for your contribution. It is nice dealing with someone who has been around the block and sees things from a different perspective.

[elite]

And Encore too. They probably wouldn’t want to buy Porter because of its likely higher cost structure, but offer to sell Encore to Porter (or a third party that buys both) with a long term CPA will be appealing with its steady revenue stream. That will begin to unlock value for Onex sooner rather than later and solve most labour issues.

[Blue42]

Don’t you get board of having conversations with yourself?

[ALPApolicy]

Don’t you get board of having conversations with yourself?

I always have to have an escape route to a new identity. Once I am nearing the end of the usable life of one identity, I slowly start introducing another identity into the roster.

When I was a pilot at Canada 3000, “elite” was our call sign on the radio. It seemed a natural choice.

[ALPApolicy]

Oh, and the answer to your question is no.

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Who are you talking to? Seriously??

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here?

Find a more appropriate place to ponder the legalities of our seniority list ahead of a negotiation with an outside body for integration of positions on said seniority list.

[Curiousflyer]

We don’t have our seniority list, the WSW/WJA PSL. At least not one available to WSW/WJA pilots.

Yes you do, it’s your seniority list. Everyone can see it. Do you think AC has separate seniority lists for Rouge pilots? How about super seniority Jazz pilots that were offered a seniority number but delayed there start date at Air Canada?

There is one seniority list at WestJet, just because you’re struggling to comprehend the language (although intent has been crystal clear from the beginning), nuances of who can work at which company when, bumping provisions, bargaining units, and common employer, doesn’t mean that that there are multiple seniority lists.

What’s your end game with all this? You want to sue but haven’t been harmed. Are you suggesting OTS have been harmed? I guarantee they were all aware where they stood on the seniority list when they were hired, no harm there either.

If you want to exclude Encore pilots from the merger list you may need to do the legwork yourself on figuring out which ones are which. Just like an Air Canada pilot would have a heck of a time figuring out which pilots worked at Rouge, or came in with super seniority, or worked at Canadian, or Air Ontario, or Air Nova, etc, etc.

[altiplano]

I would want a seniority list for the dues paying members only at my airline. People that work at a seperate company with seperate representation, that don't vote on contracts, that don't work there should not be on that list.

[Curiousflyer]

The seniority list, called the Pilot Seniority List, as defined in the CBA, is a document maintained by the company and contains only the pilots in the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit, and for pilots hired since January 1, 2019, has pilots ordered by date of hire (at WestJet or Swoop) for all pilots, including pilots flowing from Encore.

This is why the LOA was signed. For reference to your seniority please refer to the LOA.

If you are so sure of the situation, can you tell me where in the PTA it says the PSL, which contains only the WSW/WJA pilots by date of hire, is extinguished?

Section 2.01 and Section 2.02 of the LOA. That's what "combined" means. If you combine eggs and flour, you no longer have eggs or flour, but eggs and flour.

Can you tell me where on the PTA it says that the WSW/WJA pilots no longer use bargaining unit seniority for all position awards?

Section 2.01 and Section 2.02 of the LOA. You now have a combined seniority list.

The Pilot TRANSFER Agreement was created for one purpose, to TRANSFER pilots. The agreement does not say anywhere that the intent was to give Encore pilots a higher position on the PSL.

That's not true according to the legal teams of WestJet Management, Encore Management, Swoop Management, WestJet ALPA, and Encore ALPA. They all agreed with the same intentions and that's exactly what is being followed. Just because you disagree with the language, and don't fully comprehend the meaning and intent of Section 2, does not mean that the parties who signed the agreement didn't understand.

The majority of the LOA deals with transfers between the companies, freezes, and downbids. That doesn't prevent Section 2 from combining the seniority lists into one list.

[elite]

Unless there is a national organization based on license numbers and with due consideration to all previous experience, seniority has to be for the individual company and bargaining unit and you have to be there to get it. Separate companies and bargaining units, separate lists.

[lownslow]

I got here late, what does PSL stand for?

[ant_321]

I got here late, what does PSL stand for?

Pumpkin spice latte or Pakistani Super League.

[Curiousflyer]

There are 28 mentions of “PSL” in the CBA. Are you suggesting that even with no direction to do so in the PTA, we are supposed to assume that all references to PSL should be replaced with “Seniority List”?

There is direction to do so in the PTA. That's why Section 2 says a "combined" seniority list.

[ALPApolicy]

https://youtu.be/PlIRzyW-azM

[GTFA]

System seniority as opposed to other lists such as Base, type, status, training pilot, etc. The System seniority is the master list from which all other lists are derived.