Why is AC better than WJ?

[Dronepiper]

What are the bigger differences?

[vanislepilot]

1.$$$
2.$$$
Oh and 3.$$$

[Dronepiper]

1.$$$
2.$$$
Oh and 3.$$$

Is it really that big of a difference though? WJ 787 tops out at $260 and the 737 tops out at $220. What is commuting like with AC? I don’t want to live at any of their bases. At least with WJ I can live in Alberta.

[Mostly Harmless]

You have to really do your homework and understand the pay structure at WJ. You will Net (after all the deductions) about 25% of your total pay. That is far lower than the Net of and AC pilot. So, while the two hourly rates are similar, how it is delivered is very different.

#4 - Opportunity. AC has roughly 100 WB aircraft to choose from, while WJ has 10.

[Flight94]

1.$$$
2.$$$
Oh and 3.$$$

Is it really that big of a difference though? WJ 787 tops out at $260 and the 737 tops out at $220. What is like commuting with AC? I don’t want to live at any of their bases. At least with WJ I can live in Alberta.

You'll want to get ahold of someone who has a seniority list. You might have to spend multiple years in YYZ before a YYC spot is available.

[Dronepiper]

You have to really do your homework and understand the pay structure at WJ. You will Net (after all the deductions) about 25% of your total pay. That is far lower than the Net of and AC pilot. So, while the two hourly rates are similar, how it is delivered is very different.

What? Why? What are all the deductions?

[C-GGGQ]

You have to really do your homework and understand the pay structure at WJ. You will Net (after all the deductions) about 25% of your total pay. That is far lower than the Net of and AC pilot. So, while the two hourly rates are similar, how it is delivered is very different.

What? Why? What are all the deductions?

Long term (and maybe short term) disability is not covered by the company. Is a big one. Others i’m not personally sure of

[slob driver]

What are the bigger differences?

Pro’s of AC over WJ

-Swoop Wawcon terrible, with many 737 upgrades in yyz/yhm and out west (yeg) going to Swoop. This is likely stunting a WJ pilot’s earning expectations and professional development (ie. fo upgrading)
-WB F/O payrayes after year 4 much better at AC versus WJ, WB captain payrates better all around
-More diverse opportunities at AC versus WJ (widebody ops, more destinations etc.)
-Target benefit pension plan at AC that generally (if markets are acting rationally over a certain time horizon) defines how much you can expect in retirement
-Higher percentage of retirements at AC versus WJ in the next few years
-While total compensation (ie T4) can be better in some cases at WJ, take home pay at WJ is terrible due to the compensation structure versus AC, which has a more conventional pay structure. WJ compensation structure lends itself to being penalized from a tax standpoint much more versus AC on an upfront basis
-Much faster upgrade potential presently at AC (4 years I hear) versus WJ mainline (10-11 years for YYZ)
-Quicker opportunity for WB flying at AC versus WJ (100 or so 777's/787's/A330's) versus just 10 787's
-Paid benefits at AC versus WJ
-Swoop LOU 2 has caused terrible morale within the WJ group of pilots
-Impending merger between WS/WSW/SWG pilot groups that will likely cause internal angst for the next handful of years or so

I’ve been a 737 captain at WJ for 10 or so years. YYC based. I made a conscious decision to come here instead of AC since I had interview opportunities at both. At that point, AC seemed to have some real structural and morale problems. I’ve had a very good career at WJ so far, but there have been many changes at WJ that at this point make AC a more desirable career destination from a young pilot's perspective imo. There are elements with regards to WJ wawcon that are good, but I thought I would highlight what I see as the big pro's at AC versus WJ. This list could change in the near future as we are at the tail end of our contract (expires at the end of this year).

[Bil Derberg]

One makes you pick up garbage which is unpaid. At least with the other one, they dont take away your self respect.

[Adam Oke]

One makes you pick up garbage which is unpaid. At least with the other one, they dont take away your self respect.

WJ mainline makes their pilots groom the plane?

[slob driver]

One makes you pick up garbage which is unpaid. At least with the other one, they dont take away your self respect.

WJ mainline makes their pilots groom the plane?

No, pilots do not help groom the plane at wj. Those times are long since past

[Adam Oke]

No, pilots do not help groom the plane at wj. Those times are long since past

I thought that was the case. Thanks for clarifying.

[Bede]

Slob driver got most of the stuff correct with a few clarifications:
1) WJ pays benefits. What they don't pay is Long Term Disability which is about 3-4% of your base salary. At AC, this is company paid by the GDIP.
2) Wide body pay at AC is far higher than WJ. However, total compensation on the narrow body is higher at WJ with the exception of the highest FO pay scales. First 4 years are much better at WJ than AC.
3) There is a big difference between total compensation and take-home pay. Because of our tax laws and our WestJet Savings Plan (formerly employee share purchase plan), you end up with a small take home pay, but a large amount of cash after a year tax free. Example: Let's say you earn $5k. 20% of this ($1k) goes into the WSP, matched 100% by WJ. You now have $4k ($5k-$1k), but are taxed on $6k. Your taxes will be about $2k, so now we're at at pay cheque of $2k. However, once all that WSP vests at the end of the year, you have $24k tax free to do with what you want.
4) WJ is run by labour relations people who were hired from CP Rail. I think the VP Flt Ops is a decent human, but he has zero authority from my perspective. As a result we have over 300 active grievances. We win most of these, but the vast majority could be settled with just a guy talking to his Chief Pilot the old fashioned way.
5) Advancement is better at AC. I don't see WJ growing much (I hope I'm wrong). Any growth will come at Swoop, which combines the worst aspects of every 737 contract and calls it "industry standard".

[imjustlurking]

As much crap that you're going to hear from WJ/WO/WR (WG?) in the next year and a half, there are some positives that make a huge difference to many.

• Socialized bidding. You may not always get what you want, but you're a lot more likely to get a schedule that works for you without having to wait fifteen years to build seniority
• Pay. At the top end, it's cannot be compared to Air Canada, but being a young contract, better pay is sure to come
• Flow from feeder. Encore has guaranteed flow whereas Jazz does not. We'll see if the company meet's its goals to flow 170 pilots by the end of 2023
• No hats.

For me, socialized bidding is the reason why I'm here and the reason why I stay. My family life is more important to me than flying a larger airplane or topping out at a higher salary.

So, why is AC better than WJ? For you it might be, but for others it might not. Heck, some people go to and stay at WG, TS, F8, or other non-'top-tier' airlines because that's what works best for them.

[altiplano]

WJ pilots have a better union

AC pilot union is horrible..

[bob99]

As much crap that you're going to hear from WJ/WO/WR (WG?) in the next year and a half, there are some positives that make a huge difference to many.

• Socialized bidding. You may not always get what you want, but you're a lot more likely to get a schedule that works for you without having to wait fifteen years to build seniority

15 years? If you're a NB FO it only takes a few months for your schedule to not be crap. Less than a year and you're getting what you want. Even as a NB captain, 15 years would be quite senior. But at least you have the option of upgrading after a few years if you want to.

[Canadaflyer46]

[*]Flow from feeder. Encore has guaranteed flow whereas Jazz does not. We'll see if the company meet's its goals to flow 170 pilots by the end of 2023

This is about WJ vs AC, why does that matter? And once again you're wrong. What guaranteed flow? It doesn't exist as you have been told on here many times before. So spreading misinformation to justify a dead-end job you're in at Encore will not help anyone.
Jazz has guaranteed flow, with contractually agreed percentages. Encore, I'm afraid to break it to you, has diddly squat. Indeed, on the latest bid they at the last minute removed several mainline bakfilled FO positions in order to ensure flow to mainline would not happen.Very unlikely to see flow to other than Swoop in the future. Sorry if management promised you something else! Better get something in writing next time.
Anyway, apologies for the thread drift. Once again IJL had to be corrected. This is shaping up to be a good thread otherwise. Virtually everyone with less that 5 years at WJ likely tossed a resume in for this would be my guess.

[imjustlurking]

[*]Flow from feeder. Encore has guaranteed flow whereas Jazz does not. We'll see if the company meet's its goals to flow 170 pilots by the end of 2023

This is about WJ vs AC, why does that matter? And once again you're wrong. What guaranteed flow? It doesn't exist as you have been told on here many times before. So spreading misinformation to justify a dead-end job you're in at Encore will not help anyone.
Jazz has guaranteed flow, with contractually agreed percentages. Encore, I'm afraid to break it to you, has diddly squat. Indeed, on the latest bid they at the last minute removed several mainline bakfilled FO positions in order to ensure flow to mainline would not happen.Very unlikely to see flow to other than Swoop in the future. Sorry if management promised you something else! Better get something in writing next time.
Anyway, apologies for the thread drift. Once again IJL had to be corrected. This is shaping up to be a good thread otherwise. Virtually everyone with less that 5 years at WJ likely tossed a resume in for this would be my guess.

Once again I've been proven wrong.





Yup, I'm always wrong.

Remind me... do Jazz pilots need to do an interview with Air Canada before they flow? Is Air Canada contractually obligated to take every Jazz pilot who is eligible for the interview?

[Canadaflyer46]

You conveniently missed out the paragraph that says they can ignore all those flow numbers and just pay a REIP penalty to every pilot in lieu of flowing anyone (approx $3000 per pilot). You should know about that, because that's what they've done every year since the contract was signed.

[Rooster69]

Slob driver got most of the stuff correct with a few clarifications:
1) WJ pays benefits. What they don't pay is Long Term Disability which is about 3-4% of your base salary. At AC, this is company paid by the GDIP.
2) Wide body pay at AC is far higher than WJ. However, total compensation on the narrow body is higher at WJ with the exception of the highest FO pay scales. First 4 years are much better at WJ than AC.
3) There is a big difference between total compensation and take-home pay. Because of our tax laws and our WestJet Savings Plan (formerly employee share purchase plan), you end up with a small take home pay, but a large amount of cash after a year tax free. Example: Let's say you earn $5k. 20% of this ($1k) goes into the WSP, matched 100% by WJ. You now have $4k ($5k-$1k), but are taxed on $6k. Your taxes will be about $2k, so now we're at at pay cheque of $2k. However, once all that WSP vests at the end of the year, you have $24k tax free to do with what you want.
4) WJ is run by labour relations people who were hired from CP Rail. I think the VP Flt Ops is a decent human, but he has zero authority from my perspective. As a result we have over 300 active grievances. We win most of these, but the vast majority could be settled with just a guy talking to his Chief Pilot the old fashioned way.
5) Advancement is better at AC. I don't see WJ growing much (I hope I'm wrong). Any growth will come at Swoop, which combines the worst aspects of every 737 contract and calls it "industry standard".

I would say this post /\ and slob driver’s posts are probably the most useful on this thread. Most of the other posters are just interjecting their biased opinions.

[Bede]

What did I just say?

4) WJ is run by labour relations people who were hired from CP Rail.

https://financialpost.com/transportatio ... 1647136703

[slob driver]

Slob driver got most of the stuff correct with a few clarifications:
1) WJ pays benefits. What they don't pay is Long Term Disability which is about 3-4% of your base salary. At AC, this is company paid by the GDIP.
2) Wide body pay at AC is far higher than WJ. However, total compensation on the narrow body is higher at WJ with the exception of the highest FO pay scales. First 4 years are much better at WJ than AC.
3) There is a big difference between total compensation and take-home pay. Because of our tax laws and our WestJet Savings Plan (formerly employee share purchase plan), you end up with a small take home pay, but a large amount of cash after a year tax free. Example: Let's say you earn $5k. 20% of this ($1k) goes into the WSP, matched 100% by WJ. You now have $4k ($5k-$1k), but are taxed on $6k. Your taxes will be about $2k, so now we're at at pay cheque of $2k. However, once all that WSP vests at the end of the year, you have $24k tax free to do with what you want.
4) WJ is run by labour relations people who were hired from CP Rail. I think the VP Flt Ops is a decent human, but he has zero authority from my perspective. As a result we have over 300 active grievances. We win most of these, but the vast majority could be settled with just a guy talking to his Chief Pilot the old fashioned way.
5) Advancement is better at AC. I don't see WJ growing much (I hope I'm wrong). Any growth will come at Swoop, which combines the worst aspects of every 737 contract and calls it "industry standard".

Slight clarification to 2) above- WJ pays a certain amount of benefits ie. 4 star extended health, 3 star dental, emergency travel, group life (in the contract, but I believe that might have changed since 2019 for tax reasons) AD&D (again this may have changed since 2019 for tax reasons) and short term disability. Now, if a pilot wants better coverage on health and dental, the pilot is out of pocket on those. The pilot can also choose to go for a different type of Short term disability coverage then what is provided free of charge as per the contract. If the pilot chooses different than the 85% taxable version as per the CA, then they are then paying for it. To help pay some of the upgraded benefits, a pilot gets credits to sprinkle throughout their plan also. WJ's benefits program is somewhat less transparent than AC.
Swoop benefits are a completely different story. Compared to WJ, they are extremely subpar. Health and dental benefits are way lower on value in every facet. The Swoop STD is 65% of base salary for 17 weeks (versus 52 weeks at WJA) and self insured by Swoop. LTD is two years own occupation to 60 % of base salary and a max of $6500 without medical evidence of insurability. Amounts more than $6,500 to a max of $12,000 with medical evidence of insurability versus WJA LTD is own occupation for 5 years at 66.7 on the first $2500 and 50% on the rest to a max payment of $15000 with no medical evidence of insurability required. To compare to AC. I believe AC is to a max of $21,000, but GDIP is definitely a different beast than other more conventional std/ltd programs

[vanislepilot]

Also, it seems like no matter what these days, you will pass thru YYZ as a base. It's like a right of passage now. Living in the west is like a luxury now? Lol

[Mostly Harmless]

What? Why? What are all the deductions?

WJ does not have a pension. WJ had an Employee Share Purchase Program in which you could buy shares with your pay and the company would match those purchases up to a maximum of 20% of your pay. Because WJ is not a publicly traded company anymore,there are no shares you can buy but a version of the program still exists in several forms each with advantages and disadvantages that are too numerous for me to go into. What is important is 2 things: 1, You can invest (save, pick a word) 20% of your wages in a program and that will be matched by the company. 2, that money is locked in for a minimum of 1 year before you can access it.

Pay 100% - 20% (your contribution) - 20% (company contribution that you will pay the taxes on) - 35-45% taxes (depending on which province and tax rate you happen to be in) = 100% - 20% - 20% - 40% = 20% Net pay.

In a year, you can begin to access your invested pay but if you spend it all, you have nothing saved to retire on. It is very much a system designed for delayed gratification. If you are a saver and capable of living on the low take home pay, you can put away 1-2 million in a 20-25 year career with a little investing savvy... some even more. However, if you want the house, the car, the boat, the cabin, the snowmobiles, etc... the toys of life, and you spend it all you could retire broke.

That is far from an exact breakdown of the WJ pay structure but someone should explain that to you in the interview. They may not. Talk to any contacts you have in the company for more details.

The more you know... because knowledge is power.

[Canadaflyer46]

$8700 gross, net pay of $1300 was a cheque someone showed me for a top scale 737 Captain from last month (small cheque one of course). T4 rich but cash poor is the classic way to describe the pay structure. Of course the company must enjoy the fact that many have to rely on working overtime every month to increase the take home.